HELP!!! Can you "miss the boat" in San Juan?

[ibcruiseing]

I am hoping that some one will have information, Son just got a new job but he has to be back in the middle of cruise we call on San Juan what would happen if he got off and went to the airport and got a flight back to mainland?

 

he has his passport but don't really need one at is is a a US person can fly in and out of PR without one.

 

would we have to pay a fine for him missing the boat?

 

thanks

[seashinesunshine]

I am not an expert on this, but I believe there is a fine for leaving the cruise half way. Not from the cruiseline, but from someone. Who knows. It does happen though, people who honestly miss the boat or have medical emergencies do it, I would call Carnival and see what they say.

[ibcruiseing]

Just got off the phone will CC and if he is a US citizen, he can get off and no fine or anything

 

got her name just in case it is an issue

[chengkp75]

I am hoping that some one will have information, Son just got a new job but he has to be back in the middle of cruise we call on San Juan what would happen if he got off and went to the airport and got a flight back to mainland?

 

he has his passport but don't really need one at is is a a US person can fly in and out of PR without one.

 

would we have to pay a fine for him missing the boat?

 

thanks

 

I'm assuming you are starting from a US port?

 

Well, from the standpoint of the PVSA, there should be no fine, as transport between the US and PR is exempt from PVSA regulations.

 

However, you open up a whole can of worms with documentation. I'm next assuming you are in a foreign port before sailing for San Juan. By getting off the ship in a different port than he embarked on, he is no longer on a "closed loop" cruise, so if he embarked using a BC/DL combination instead of a passport, he could be fined by CBP, as "open jaw" cruises do not allow the WHTI exemption from using a passport. So, for this, I would say he should use his passport to check in.

 

Now, if you tell the cruise line that he will be disembarking in San Juan, they can arrange for CBP to clear him from foreign (the last port before San Juan) as if he was travelling from foreign (which he is), requiring a passport, and customs declaration. He would then be fine to fly from San Juan to home.

 

If he were to just leave the ship, he would not have cleared CBP correctly from the foreign port (I don't think the ship clears all passengers through customs in San Juan, but if they do, someone here will correct me). The cruise line would need to revise the passenger manifest for arrival back at embark port, so CBP would know when he left the ship, and would look at airline manifest from San Juan, and would look for him for possible customs violations (whether or not he brought anything back, he failed to make a declaration).

 

Now, the last problem. For closed loop cruises, the passenger manifest created at embarkation, with all passenger documentation, is forwarded to CBP at departure, and is used to "pre-screen" all passengers during the cruise, so that when you disembark, there is just a cursory CBP clearance. Whenever someone disembarks early, the cruise line must submit a whole new manifest, and this costs money and time. This is why the cruise lines have cut back on allowing passengers who miss embarkation to join at a later foreign port, since they need to submit a new manifest.

 

So, depending on how you handle this, he may be subject to fine by CBP, or banning by the cruise line. You should not try to do this on the down low. Call the cruise line and ask a question.

[GeneHunter]

Just got off the phone will CC and if he is a US citizen, he can get off and no fine or anything

 

got her name just in case it is an issue

 

A couple years ago, I was sailing the Alaskan Inland Passage from Seattle, to Alaska, with a brief evening stop in Vancouver before landing back in Seattle the next morning. Sailing in my group, was a couple who lived in Vancouver, who wished to disembark while in Vancouver. The cruise line required a letter from them, stating what they wished to do. In reply, the cruise line, requested them to come to customer services 24 hours before they disembarked to remind the staff. Just before they embarked, the cruise line assisted in the paperwork required from the Canadian government and even have staff assist them with their luggage.

 

If you are using a travel agent, they can assist in any required paperwork. I you booked directly with Carnival, I would call back and have them put what they said in writing.

[ibcruiseing]

Well CC called me back as she was confused by my question, per Carnival I need to see customs before we board the ship and give them $300 and then he can just get off in SJU and take a flight.

 

Does this sound like others have heard? What happens to folks that miss the boat?

[2 cruzen]

Well CC called me back as she was confused by my question, per Carnival I need to see customs before we board the ship and give them $300 and then he can just get off in SJU and take a flight.

 

Does this sound like others have heard? What happens to folks that miss the boat?

 

Did they explain what the $300 was for?

[evanAction]

What is the itinerary of the cruise? Does it stop in foreign ports in between embarkation and San Juan? If so you need to arrange to clear customs and I believe there is a fee/fine. I'd get some hard answers and documentation prior to sailing.

 

Good luck!

 

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Forums mobile app

[SeagoingMom]

Did they explain what the $300 was for?

I believe $300 is a legal penalty imposed on foreign flagged ships which carry passengers and/or cargo from one U.S. port to another without stopping at a foreign port in between. If the ship under consideration is stopping at a foreign port before P.R., perhaps Carnival is just taking advantage of the idea of this fine to charge the passenger for the aggravation of disembarking (or for the lost revenue from that passenger who will not be on board to spend money), even though the ship might not actually be charged the fine by the U.S gov't.

 

I've read discussions on some other threads about these old laws that still apply to cruise ships, although in this particular case it's not entirely clear how or if they apply. Well, at least it's not clear to me! Wiki has some info on them. One's called the Merchant Marine Act (1920) or Jones Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 and one the Passenger Vessel Services Act (1886) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886 (PVSA referred to by a previous poster) and from what I understand they are commonly confused. Anyway, I am confused about them!

[Strmwatch]

I am hoping that some one will have information, Son just got a new job but he has to be back in the middle of cruise we call on San Juan what would happen if he got off and went to the airport and got a flight back to mainland?

 

he has his passport but don't really need one at is is a a US person can fly in and out of PR without one.

 

would we have to pay a fine for him missing the boat?

 

thanks

 

 

Interesting that his new boss wouldn't work with him about starting AFTER the cruise?

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Well CC called me back as she was confused by my question, per Carnival I need to see customs before we board the ship and give them $300 and then he can just get off in SJU and take a flight.

 

Does this sound like others have heard? What happens to folks that miss the boat?

 

Doesn't sound right. By fining you $300 they are saying it a violation of the PVSA which as Chengpk pointed out it is not as PR is exempt from the law.

 

CCL reps aren't well versed in the PVSA violations or as Carnival wouold call it the Jones act even though that is for cargo.

 

Do you visit a foreign port before getting to San Juan?

 

Bill

[snc_cam]

have you contacted the state dept or cbp and asked them this question? they are the ultimate law in this case and should have the correct answer.

[chengkp75]

I believe $300 is a legal penalty imposed on foreign flagged ships which carry passengers and/or cargo from one U.S. port to another without stopping at a foreign port in between. If the ship under consideration is stopping at a foreign port before P.R., perhaps Carnival is just taking advantage of the idea of this fine to charge the passenger for the aggravation of disembarking (or for the lost revenue from that passenger who will not be on board to spend money), even though the ship might not actually be charged the fine by the U.S gov't. You could be right about the phony "fine". The actual requirement for a passenger to disembark at a different port than embarkation is that the ship must call at a "distant foreign port", not just any foreign port. The closest "distant foreign ports" are the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao). There are no distant foreign ports in North America, Central America, or the Caribbean except the ABC's. Closed loop cruises must call at any foreign port (cruise starts and ends at same US port).

 

I've read discussions on some other threads about these old laws that still apply to cruise ships, although in this particular case it's not entirely clear how or if they apply. Well, at least it's not clear to me! Wiki has some info on them. One's called the Merchant Marine Act (1920) or Jones Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 and one the Passenger Vessel Services Act (1886) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886 (PVSA referred to by a previous poster) and from what I understand they are commonly confused. Anyway, I am confused about them!

 

As Oceanlover says, none of the cruise line ticket agents are well versed on PVSA violations. The Jones Act deals strictly with cargo, not passengers, but they will frequently refer to it. The PVSA is what applies, but transport of a passenger between the mainland US and Puerto Rico is specifically exempt from the PVSA, so there should be no problem with that. Also, the lines are not allowed to knowingly book a violation of the PVSA, so saying that paying the "fine" up front is bogus. (Hint, the fine is placed on the cruise line, not the passenger, but your ticket contract gives them your permission to pass it on to you).

 

If there were no foreign ports between embarkation and San Juan, there would be no need to clear Customs. However, if there is a foreign port, then a Customs declaration is required.

 

I would call back, ask to speak to a supervisor (and they are not all that well versed on PVSA or CBP requirements, either), explain that you know that there is no fine for travel between the embark port and Puerto Rico, but that you want to have your son clear Customs when the ship arrives in San Juan. They will then say either yes he can, or no we don't allow that. At that point, it is up to you to decide how much potential risk you want to take with CBP. Personally, I don't mess with them, they tend to make up their own rules as they go, and even if they are wrong, it takes lots of money and time to straighten out the legality of your position.

[chengkp75]

have you contacted the state dept or cbp and asked them this question? they are the ultimate law in this case and should have the correct answer.

 

While this is entirely true in the legal sense, and I believe there is no legal reason to deny this, it is up to the cruise line as to whether or not they deny boarding, or place the individual on a banned list for future cruises. It is their right, since you intend to breach the ticket contract, as to whether or not they will extend service to you. This is different from a medical disembarkation, a family emergency, or a missed ship. There has been a major shift, particularly at Carnival, in not allowing late embarkations or early disembarks for non-emergency reasons, because of all the hassle it causes with CBP paperwork (not the legality, just the additional paperwork).

[ibcruiseing]

Oh my now i am very confused we are on the may 10 shipp

 

FLL

St. Martin

St. Thomas

San Juan

HMC

FLL

 

so we will have been in St. Martin but then stopped in St. Thomas and you do not need a passport to get to St. Thomas as the full name is St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands (you don't need a passport to travel there if your a US citizen.)

 

so kind of confused as to would it be better to lie and say that something has happened to family back home and have him get off under that story or be up front about it?

[chengkp75]

Oh my now i am very confused we are on the may 10 shipp

 

FLL

St. Martin

St. Thomas

San Juan

HMC

FLL

 

so we will have been in St. Martin but then stopped in St. Thomas and you do not need a passport to get to St. Thomas as the full name is St. Thomas U.S. Virgin Islands (you don't need a passport to travel there if your a US citizen.)

 

so kind of confused as to would it be better to lie and say that something has happened to family back home and have him get off under that story or be up front about it?

 

That would depend on your scruples. Even though getting off in San Juan does not violate the PVSA, they may charge you the $300 "fine" anyway (added to onboard account), and you would then have to take the time, and possible legal expense to get it back. Even in cases of medical emergency, or family emergency, if it does in fact violate the PVSA, they will charge you anyway, and then make you request a refund from CBP, showing documentation. Even if you lie to Carnival, there is the problem of the Customs declaration. Your son will have left the country (at embarkation) with documentation filed with CBP, but there will be no matching return documentation (from a normal disembark), since he will not clear CBP for the flight from San Juan to home, and will not clear with CBP when he leaves the ship in San Juan. The real risk is not with Carnival, it is with CBP. I can see problems with future travel, possible questioning about "illegal" entry into the US (even for a citizen, you have to do it properly), failure to declare Customs duty, etc. Will all or any of this happen? Will he get caught? Who knows, especially in today's post 9-11 atmosphere.

 

Thinking on it, if you chose not to tell Carnival, your son would have to find US Customs in San Juan (perhaps at the airport) and report that he missed the ship and needs to clear Customs before flying home. So, this would be all on your son, and you would need to allow enough time to get this process done before his flight. If you tell Carnival, they can arrange to have him clear Customs when the ship docks and the CBP officers come to the ship. It still may cost you $300, but its up to you to decide whether that is worth it.

Edited April 30, 2014 by chengkp75

[Eng23]

Maybe the correct decision is what's more important, the new job or taking a cruise? IMHO the best course of action would be to cancel the cruise if the new job is that important. If not, take the cruise and deal with the job fallout upon return.

 

All these other scenarios will get confusing, expensive, or could cause your son legal problems with US Customs and problems for the cruiseline.

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

[ibcruiseing]

That would depend on your scruples. Even though getting off in San Juan does not violate the PVSA, they may charge you the $300 "fine" anyway (added to onboard account), and you would then have to take the time, and possible legal expense to get it back. Even in cases of medical emergency, or family emergency, if it does in fact violate the PVSA, they will charge you anyway, and then make you request a refund from CBP, showing documentation. Even if you lie to Carnival, there is the problem of the Customs declaration. Your son will have left the country (at embarkation) with documentation filed with CBP, but there will be no matching return documentation (from a normal disembark), since he will not clear CBP for the flight from San Juan to home, and will not clear with CBP when he leaves the ship in San Juan. The real risk is not with Carnival, it is with CBP. I can see problems with future travel, possible questioning about "illegal" entry into the US (even for a citizen, you have to do it properly), failure to declare Customs duty, etc. Will all or any of this happen? Will he get caught? Who knows, especially in today's post 9-11 atmosphere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thinking on it, if you chose not to tell Carnival, your son would have to find US Customs in San Juan (perhaps at the airport) and report that he missed the ship and needs to clear Customs before flying home. So, this would be all on your son, and you would need to allow enough time to get this process done before his flight. If you tell Carnival, they can arrange to have him clear Customs when the ship docks and the CBP officers come to the ship. It still may cost you $300, but its up to you to decide whether that is worth it.

 

 

We are willing to Pay the $300 I have no issues with that so you feel that we just let customs know in FL and pay the money to customs and all would be good??

[chengkp75]

We are willing to Pay the $300 I have no issues with that so you feel that we just let customs know in FL and pay the money to customs and all would be good??

 

That's not what I'm saying. Customs (CBP) does not want the $300, since there is no violation of PVSA. And CBP fines the cruise line, not you. They are very specific about that. They don't care if there is an agreement (your ticket contract) between the cruise line and you that allows the cruise line to charge you for the fine. You will not see CBP in FLL when you embark. A cruise line employee will check your documents and enter them into the passenger manifest, which will be submitted to CBP for "pre-clearance" for your return to FLL. Towards the end of the cruise, you will be given a Customs declaration, just like when you fly in from foreign. You will give this to CBP when you disembark. When the ship clears CBP in San Juan, the passengers are treated as if they are "in transit", so they will not clear Customs. However, if Carnival is aware of the intention to disembark early in SJ, they will have your son fill out his declaration the night before, and will then be able to have CBP clear him for disembarking. They may require him to come to guest services as soon as the ship docks, to clear in person with CBP.

 

I'm saying that Carnival may "fine" you (and keep the money) for the inconvenience of an early disembark. Legal? Probably not. Worth fighting over? Probably not economic.

 

I'm also saying that if you choose not to inform Carnival, then clearing Customs in SJ falls entirely on yourselves, and Carnival is released from any responsibility in contacting CBP, except that the revised manifest (showing your son "missed" the ship in SJ) will be forwarded to CBP.

[ibcruiseing]

That's not what I'm saying. Customs (CBP) does not want the $300, since there is no violation of PVSA. And CBP fines the cruise line, not you. They are very specific about that. They don't care if there is an agreement (your ticket contract) between the cruise line and you that allows the cruise line to charge you for the fine. You will not see CBP in FLL when you embark. A cruise line employee will check your documents and enter them into the passenger manifest, which will be submitted to CBP for "pre-clearance" for your return to FLL. Towards the end of the cruise, you will be given a Customs declaration, just like when you fly in from foreign. You will give this to CBP when you disembark. When the ship clears CBP in San Juan, the passengers are treated as if they are "in transit", so they will not clear Customs. However, if Carnival is aware of the intention to disembark early in SJ, they will have your son fill out his declaration the night before, and will then be able to have CBP clear him for disembarking. They may require him to come to guest services as soon as the ship docks, to clear in person with CBP.

 

I'm saying that Carnival may "fine" you (and keep the money) for the inconvenience of an early disembark. Legal? Probably not. Worth fighting over? Probably not economic.

 

I'm also saying that if you choose not to inform Carnival, then clearing Customs in SJ falls entirely on yourselves, and Carnival is released from any responsibility in contacting CBP, except that the revised manifest (showing your son "missed" the ship in SJ) will be forwarded to CBP.

 

So just got off the phone with CBP- They will not take the money Carnival does as they charge Carnival however she cant tell me how much it is as every CBP port charges what they want????????? I called The main office in DC and she gave me the number down in FLL however it just rings and no one picks no VM.

[riffatsea]

If there was a family emergency or a medical emergency and your son needed to get home from Puerto Rico he would just tell the ship and leave.

I don't see why you can't just do the same thing and not tell them until they need to know he is gone.

[ibcruiseing]

So crazy, We can lie and say it is an emergency and have him get off or be upfront and not get a clear answer.

 

My TA just got 2 different answers when she called Carnival, fine to do and not allowed at all.

 

has anyone missed a port in and had to fly back home?

 

what did carnival do?

 

all responses would be welcome.

 

thanks

[17andacruiseaddict]

Yeah did he make sure his boss wouldn't be ok with him starting a few days later? I mean the cruise was booked before the job so I would assume somebody nice enough would understand. Unless there is no way that can happen.

[MexicanMama]

Not trying to throw another wrench in your situation, but do you have a Plan B if the ship misses this port for some reason?

[Roz]

To me it wouldn't be worth all this aggravation and potential fallout. If I were your son, I just wouldn't go on the cruise.

 

Roz