Why did it take the jetliner to kill the TA ocean liner business

[Underwatr]

I passed the United States in Philadelphia over the weekend. Sad to see it fading away there.

[MicCanberra]

I passed the United States in Philadelphia over the weekend. Sad to see it fading away there.

 

What is it being used for? A hotel or museum or something else?

[navybankerteacher]

I'm not so sure, Salacia. IMO, Queen Mary 2 seems as if she is going through the motions of a transatlantic liner, with her slower speeds and longer crossings. She is, of course, the last link to the golden age of ocean liners, even though she is slowly being reduced to a theme park.

 

For me, the end of the purebred ocean liner began with the withdrawal from service of ships that carried on regular "line" voyages...the France, the United States, Raffaello, Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci, and finally QE2.

 

We can debate this over the second round of drinks (on me) in the Commodore Club ;).

 

Virtually everything evolves - even trans-Atlantic passages. I am sure that there were those who saw the Savannah as the end of an era (the first steamship on trans-Attlantic service - signaling the death of sail)). Then there must have been those who mourned the introduction of internal combustion to replace steam. It isn't just the coming of high-speed jets - also the loss of leisure: the willingness to be on a ship for a week when a plane can get you there in a few hours (more, now that the SST was proven to be an uneconomic bad idea whose time had not come) is no longer so widely held to warrant the multiple weekly sailings. I can recall the early fifties when every day there were several liners alongside Hudson River piers - and the New York Times had a daily section advising the times when the mails closed for each of the several ships sailing that day.

 

There is simply not the demand for old style " liners" - but isn't QM2 providing the service (admittedly on a less frequent schedule) previously so widely available? When not on cruises she is, in fact, continuing the trans-Atlantic liner tradition. Yes - not the four days of the past -- but people interested in that sort of speed are going to be thirty-some thousand feet overhead. She may be the last, but when on the New York - Southampton run she is surely still a trans-Atlantic liner.

[Underwatr]

What is it being used for? A hotel or museum or something else?

No, it's just literally rusting away. They're barely able to get money for the minimal preservation.

 

I've noticed that someone from Google walked around the open decks with a Google Streetview camera attached to a backpack. Link

[bobby1119]

Virtually everything evolves - even trans-Atlantic passages. I am sure that there were those who saw the Savannah as the end of an era (the first steamship on trans-Attlantic service - signaling the death of sail)). Then there must have been those who mourned the introduction of internal combustion to replace steam. It isn't just the coming of high-speed jets - also the loss of leisure: the willingness to be on a ship for a week when a plane can get you there in a few hours (more, now that the SST was proven to be an uneconomic bad idea whose time had not come) is no longer so widely held to warrant the multiple weekly sailings. I can recall the early fifties when every day there were several liners alongside Hudson River piers - and the New York Times had a daily section advising the times when the mails closed for each of the several ships sailing that day.

 

There is simply not the demand for old style " liners" - but isn't QM2 providing the service (admittedly on a less frequent schedule) previously so widely available? When not on cruises she is, in fact, continuing the trans-Atlantic liner tradition. Yes - not the four days of the past -- but people interested in that sort of speed are going to be thirty-some thousand feet overhead. She may be the last, but when on the New York - Southampton run she is surely still a trans-Atlantic liner.

 

I wish CruiseCritic had a "Like" option as Facebook does because I "Like" your response - very much. You have provided an interesting and very thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the demise of the ocean liners, as they were known, and for the "line" voyages. I think your comment about the loss of leisure time and travelers not wanting to be on a ship for several days was a point especially well made. I, too, fondly remember the sight of many liners in the late 60's and early 70's on the westside and the Shipping/Mails box in the New York Times. I do agree that there is a palpable sense of connection to this illustrious past when aboard Queen Mary 2 on a transatlantic crossing, even at reduced speeds and in the midst of the hype.

[chengkp75]

I wish CruiseCritic had a "Like" option as Facebook does because I "Like" your response - very much. You have provided an interesting and very thoughtfully reasoned explanation for the demise of the ocean liners, as they were known, and for the "line" voyages. I think your comment about the loss of leisure time and travelers not wanting to be on a ship for several days was a point especially well made. I, too, fondly remember the sight of many liners in the late 60's and early 70's on the westside and the Shipping/Mails box in the New York Times. I do agree that there is a palpable sense of connection to this illustrious past when aboard Queen Mary 2 on a transatlantic crossing, even at reduced speeds and in the midst of the hype.

 

I took my first "cruise" aboard the QEII, back in 1977, when she was still a steamship. We did it because we could relax on the way home (moving back to US from Scotland), and because of the huge baggage allowance, rather than be crammed in a 747 seat for 6 hours. As a marine engineer, I for one do not miss the steamships, as steam propulsion is an extremely inefficient form of propulsion. No one in the world could afford to operate a modern cruise ship (or liner) as a steamship given today's fuel cost. Colin Veitch at NCL had the idea to resurrect the United States (NCL owned it at the time, but that's another long story) and use it for world cruises, but even he wanted to gut the engine room and install a diesel electric plant. This is what killed the project finally (besides NCL's hemorrhage of money on NCL America), when the SS United States Conservancy filed a restraining order citing that the propulsion plant is what made the US historically significant. Anyway, its all about efficiency these days, airliners are far more efficient people movers than liners, so the cost goes down, and the volume goes up.

[navybankerteacher]

I took my first "cruise" aboard the QEII, back in 1977, when she was still a steamship. We did it because we could relax on the way home (moving back to US from Scotland), and because of the huge baggage allowance, rather than be crammed in a 747 seat for 6 hours. As a marine engineer, I for one do not miss the steamships, as steam propulsion is an extremely inefficient form of propulsion. No one in the world could afford to operate a modern cruise ship (or liner) as a steamship given today's fuel cost. Colin Veitch at NCL had the idea to resurrect the United States (NCL owned it at the time, but that's another long story) and use it for world cruises, but even he wanted to gut the engine room and install a diesel electric plant. This is what killed the project finally (besides NCL's hemorrhage of money on NCL America), when the SS United States Conservancy filed a restraining order citing that the propulsion plant is what made the US historically significant. Anyway, its all about efficiency these days, airliners are far more efficient people movers than liners, so the cost goes down, and the volume goes up.

 

Of course, NCL did resurrect the grand old TS France, one of the very last of the traditional North Atlantic liners (renamed Norway) and steamed her on cruise itineraries (on reduced boilers and two screws rather than three). I sailed her in 2002 on a Caribbean itinerary out of Miami about a year before a steam pipe burst killing a couple of crew - and putting her permanently out of service.

[chengkp75]

Of course, NCL did resurrect the grand old TS France, one of the very last of the traditional North Atlantic liners (renamed Norway) and steamed her on cruise itineraries (on reduced boilers and two screws rather than three). I sailed her in 2002 on a Caribbean itinerary out of Miami about a year before a steam pipe burst killing a couple of crew - and putting her permanently out of service.

 

Yes, the Norway was long before Veitch's pipe dreams. I think she originally had 4 propellers, much like the US. Last of the real post-war liners. It was a boiler explosion of superheated steam, a really dangerous situations. The story of her scrapping is one very unfortunate and convoluted story.

[MicCanberra]

No, it's just literally rusting away. They're barely able to get money for the minimal preservation.

 

I've noticed that someone from Google walked around the open decks with a Google Streetview camera attached to a backpack. Link

 

Thanks, a bit sad really.:(

[chengkp75]

Thanks, a bit sad really.:(

 

Yes, she's actually just an empty hulk. All the furnishings and interiors were stripped out over in Turkey decades ago. Even much of the engineering spaces were gone over to remove asbestos and other hazardous materials in a country that at that time (and still to an extent) has little environmental rules.

[MicCanberra]

Yes, she's actually just an empty hulk. All the furnishings and interiors were stripped out over in Turkey decades ago. Even much of the engineering spaces were gone over to remove asbestos and other hazardous materials in a country that at that time (and still to an extent) has little environmental rules.

 

Tragic.