Rhine water levels 2023 and similar topics

[DougK]

22 hours ago, Kristelle said:

we are booked to travel on Scenic Jade - if we get to Amsterdam and find we were sailing on Scenic XYZ instead,  would that make any difference?

 

 

 

For the vast majority of people it won't make any noticeable difference. However, for a few people in high-end suites, it makes a big difference, as there are some differences between the suites on different ships. This is most noticeable for the Royal Panorama Suite, which is 475 sq.ft. on the Jasper/Opal/Amber and has separate sleeping and sitting areas, but is "only" 325 sq.ft. on the other ships, with sleeping running right into sitting. If I shelled out the premium price for a Royal Panorama Suite on the Jasper, I'd be pretty disappointed to be moved to the Ruby. (Though it would definitely beat being converted to a bus tour!)

 

That's addressing the question specifically with regard to Scenic; I understand Viking longships are clones of each other, and have no idea about other lines.

[Kristelle]

Doug thanks for that info - if only to reassure me that , for me, it doesnt matter which of Scenic's ships I am on - being in ordinary level balcony cabin.

 

Obviously preferable not to have to do a mid trip ship swap - but will make zero difference to me if my entire trip from Amsterdam boarding is on another ship instead of Scenic jade.

 

and since we are catching train from Paris and not doing transfer with company,  I will have Scenic number ready in my phone, just in case.

[RDVIK2016]

 

3 hours ago, Saberk9 said:

Rhineforcast.com was what I looked at. I prefer your narrative. Perhaps I should stay in my lane and let those of you that are more experienced report of this.  lol. Thanks so much Notamermaid for your followup. 

3 hours ago, notamermaid said:

Not too worry, the website looks interesting and accurate I would say. Elwis has just a different and more detailed way of showing it, i.e. it shows a range and probability chart as well as the standard forecast table. Thanks for mentioning that site.

notamermaid

Notamermaid, the Rhineforcast.com graphs look like they are giving the Pegel, but are captioned as "Water Level".  Have you seen the optional excel tables from Rhineforcast and if they are more detailed?

RDVIK

[notamermaid]

I see on the website that the info is taken partly from the German authorities directly (see tiny captions, the abbreviation WSV). Will look into it again later.

 

Kaub gauge at 104cm.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

12 hours ago, RDVIK2016 said:

Have you seen the optional excel tables from Rhineforcast and if they are more detailed?

These are behind a "give me your details" wall, so I am not going to access them. Sorry. I like the design and graphs of the website but I prefer elwis, managed by the authorities.

 

Kaub gauge going down very slowly now, Sunday into Monday should see the drop below 100cm. Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest should see a rise again.

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

In other news, actually I forgot to mention this last week. The hull of the Amina sailing for Phoenix Reisen from 2024 has been transported to the Netherlands. Another ship for the ever growing fleet of river cruise ships.

 

Weird fact: there is a ship called Ocean Diva Original sailing the Rhine! She looks unusual. All grey and a bit "out of this realm". So guess what, I have checked and turn out not to be far off with my comment as she is an event location ship that had been built as a Russian river cruise ship. The ship was never completed, the hull then altered and much later completed to become the largest event river ship in Europe (according to Wikipedia).

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceandiva_Original

 

notamermaid

 

[ak1004]

18 hours ago, notamermaid said:

You are right, Kaub is not a river cruise port as such. It is a small place that does have an excursion boat landing stage that is suitable for river cruise ships I think.

 

Kaub gauge is the marker for the shipping industry meaning it gives the river traffic the info how deep the navigation channel is in that area of the Rhine (there is a calculation that refers to another gauge but that is beside the point for our purposes here). On the "pegel online" map it looks like this:

 

The area has the shallowest navigation channel of the Rhine. I need to clarify that the Rhine Gorge is not that shallow in its whole stretch and the shallow channel actually starts before Rüdesheim. Sorry, I was not precise enough. At Mainz it is 210cm, at Kaub it is 190cm, at Koblenz it is 210cm. That is the basis for the calculation for river traffic.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So basically Kaub is the weakest link.. no matter the levels in other ports, once Kaub is below certian level (50cm?), ships cannot pass from Basel to Amsterdam.

 

if this happens, they da a swap? Meaning that ships that go in opposite directions just wait on both sides of Kaub and then swap guests? This would require a serious logistics..

[notamermaid]

Correct, Kaub is the bottleneck, the weakest link.

 

Procedure is (example Viking): Viking X leaves on 1st August in Amsterdam, Viking Y leaves on same day in Basel. X goes to Koblenz, Y goes to Rüdesheim. Passengers travel by coach. X returns to Amsterdam with passengers of Y, Y returns to Basel with passengers of X. Usually works smoothly. Bigger problems arise when the level falls too far. The stretch of river you can sail becomes much shorter. This then involves tedious to's and fro's in order not to miss visiting ports, and/or long coach rides.

 

For a discussion of this topic see also my conversation with a poster in last year's thread: https://boards.cruisecritic.com.au/topic/2827571-rhine-water-levels-2022-and-similar-topics/page/33/

 

Some companies may of course cancel a cruise rather than do a swap (not all have the logistics to do that procedure to bridge the Rhine Gorge) or take people by coach to other ports.

 

notamermaid

 

 

[notamermaid]

As regards the levels: in 2018 river cruise ships still sailed - the old (and relatively new) small ones. Last year the 135m ships failed to make the passage on some days in August. Apart from one - the MS Alisa. She was only a hull taken by a barge alongside it to the Netherlands for completion and sailed the Grand European journey when no other 135m river cruise ship could.

 

notamermaid

 

[ak1004]

15 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

As regards the levels: in 2018 river cruise ships still sailed - the old (and relatively new) small ones. Last year the 135m ships failed to make the passage on some days in August. Apart from one - the MS Alisa. She was only a hull taken by a barge alongside it to the Netherlands for completion and sailed the Grand European journey when no other 135m river cruise ship could.

 

notamermaid

 

 

We are on Uniworld River Empress which is 110m I believe.

[notamermaid]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

 

We are on Uniworld River Empress which is 110m I believe.

Yes, website says she is 361 feet. An elegant ship to watch sailing by on the river. It is not a guarantee but the shorter length should be favourable for her draught. Your captain and crew can tell you more about this if you are interested.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

There has been rain in the Rhine valley and it is cooler now. Relief for nature for sure. Reaction of the river levels will follow soon. For now, Kaub is still going down slowly. 103cm this lunchtime. Prospective level for Monday 91cm. Seems a bit low to me, but it could just mean that we need to wait for the high volume of water further up in the Upper Rhine valley to get to the Rhine Gorge.

 

notamermaid

 

[rjp50]

We just passed through the Rhine Gorge yesterday going north.  Water levels were obviously low with islands of gravel which should be covered with water.  However, not only were river boats cruising but also all manner of commercial ships were going through.  

[Kbrown23]

We are taking an Avalon cruise the 1 Aug from Amsterdam to Basel. I'm hopeful!!  

[notamermaid]

21 minutes ago, rjp50 said:

However, not only were river boats cruising but also all manner of commercial ships were going through.  

Thanks for saying hello from your cruise. Indeed, the river is as busy as ever. You could say even a little more as the reduced load means logistics companies deploy a few more ships to partly make up for it.

 

After the low of most probably 91cm the level at Kaub should go up to over 120cm and remain so for the rest of the month. Fingers crossed.

 

notamermaid

 

[wgerr]

My wife and I are scheduled to cruise from Basel to Amsterdam on the Avalon Expression, embarking on Aug 8. I'm getting very nervous that water levels will cause an interruption or even a cancellation of our holiday. I've called the cruise line and they are very dismissive of the possibility of anything negative happening. I've read predictions that the river will be so low by August that commercial river traffic will be halted and cruises may also be stopped. It's hard to get a reasonable expectation of what we may experience so I've signed up here after reading many of the posts. Watching for updates as our dates get closer!

Edited July 23, 2023 by wgerr
Typo correction

[Host Jazzbeau]

5 hours ago, wgerr said:

My wife and I are scheduled to cruise from Basel to Amsterdam on the Avalon Expression, embarking on Aug 8. I'm getting very nervous that water levels will cause an interruption or even a cancellation of our holiday. I've called the cruise line and they are very dismissive of the possibility of anything negative happening. I've read predictions that the river will be so low by August that commercial river traffic will be halted and cruises may also be stopped. It's hard to get a reasonable expectation of what we may experience so I've signed up here after reading many of the posts. Watching for updates as our dates get closer!

I can, with the same degree of knowledge as your sources, give you a prediction that the river will be just fine in August and your cruise will sail straight through from Basel to Amsterdam without a hitch.  Of course, that is pure fantasy – just like the predictions you have read.  Nobody knows anything that far out, and Avalon will be monitoring the situation and making alternative plans to give you a good cruise experience.  Relax.

[mjz]

8 hours ago, wgerr said:

My wife and I are scheduled to cruise from Basel to Amsterdam on the Avalon Expression, embarking on Aug 8. I'm getting very nervous that water levels will cause an interruption or even a cancellation of our holiday. I've called the cruise line and they are very dismissive of the possibility of anything negative happening. I've read predictions that the river will be so low by August that commercial river traffic will be halted and cruises may also be stopped. It's hard to get a reasonable expectation of what we may experience so I've signed up here after reading many of the posts. Watching for updates as our dates get closer!

I'll be on the Avalon Panorama from Basel to Amsterdam embarking July 29th.  I'll post an update along the way.

[notamermaid]

Adjusted forecast now suggests 96cm as the low. I dare say a bit closer to what my gut feeling said it would be, but believe me I still prefer to look at the computer data rather than trust myself.

 

4 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Nobody knows anything that far out, and Avalon will be monitoring the situation and making alternative plans to give you a good cruise experience.

It is correct that no definite data exists, but I politely partly disagree or at least would like to refine that there is data. Computer modelling of the very elaborate probability kind that is not too helpful for river cruise ships and even less for passengers. Over the years I have learnt though that the Kaub 14 day prediction can be a good indicator of things to come, hence me using it here for our purposes. From today, the data takes us now to 6 August and it looks at least promising. We have been in far worse situations. But, as always, we will review this again. It is cool today and there has been rain again.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[notamermaid]

Welcome to Cruisecritic.

10 hours ago, wgerr said:

I've read predictions that the river will be so low by August that commercial river traffic will be halted and cruises may also be stopped.

To the first comment: commercial river traffic never stops and it will certainly never be halted. Small barges can still sail and did sail in 2018. It is a challenge but works. What happens is that at least some logistics companies have rules and regulations for low water and from what I understand have no obligation in their contracts to run a ship below a certain river level at Kaub.

 

To the second comment: river cruise ships can sail and will sail if it is safe and commercially (and for the experience of the passenger) reasonable to do so. There has not been a single year that I know of when river cruising actually stopped per se. It got close in 2018. Your company will decide what is reasonable as regards the experience and from what past passengers have reported about Avalon it works very well.

 

I hope we can help you here to relax a bit and if you have questions closer to your date you may prefer to talk to Avalon again.

 

Have a great cruise.

 

notamermaid

 

[petemc]

My wife and I are going in late Sept. out of Amsterdam on the Viking Njord.Very nervous about river levels. We really don't want a bus tour.

[TMLAalum]

@wgerr

Can you please start a new thread with your experience aboard the Avalon Expression Basel-Amsterdam?

We are on the same vessel (IDK if the correct term is boat or ship for a river cruise!) starting 8/29 from Amsterdam to Basel.

Any tips, comments, excursion reviews will be much appreciated!

Our fingers are X'd for adequate water levels on the Rhine for you and us!

[Gail in California]

Thank you, notamermaid, for your frequent & knowledgeable updates. We are on Tauck Amsterdam to Basel on Aug10 & are following your posts with great interest & concern. Hoping the recent rain helps the river water levels.

[notamermaid]

Allow me to ignore water levels for the rest of the weekend and wander a bit off the beaten track to - Wuppertal. You may have guessed it if you are slightly familiar with German that this word means the valley of the Wupper. So this is a historic town not on the Rhine but on this small river that flows into the Rhine. Welll, not quite. The town has only existed since 1930 when the name was given to reflect the fact that two of the parts that formed the new town are actually on the Wupper river. That makes it one of the youngest towns in Germany. And it is very industrial. But that is the reason we can now enjoy one of the weirdest modes of transport in Germany. Yes, the Wupper does flow into the Rhine.

 

So to the railway. It has rails, it has stations but is not on the ground. It is suspended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IFh6wFTJiQ

 

And if you are into unusual places do check out Tim's other videos.

 

notamermaid

 

[The Other Tom]

7 hours ago, notamermaid said:

And if you are into unusual places do check out Tim's other videos.

Oh boy, another Youtube rabbit hole to go down.  I'll never get anything done!.  (Thanks for the link)