Saga Spirit of Discovery

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

The speed on TV always matched what the captain announced. 

 

Back to weather, what they are approaching/dealing with now is similiar to that weather they dodged on previous cruise and lost us a port and a day.  The cynical amongst us might hypothesize that something has been fixed , recalibrated in Portsmouth.  One will certainly never know

 

 

To what extent is the weather "similar?"

 

Our understanding is that at11.10 GMT today (11 Dec 2023) the Spirit of Discovery was about 100 miles West of Brest in NW France and was cruising through a near gale winds pf 14.0 m/s (about 28 knots) and in high seas of 5.2 m. The forecast for the route to Lisbon is for better weather... less wind... calmer seas and warmer temps.

The bad weather in the mid-Atlantic with wind speed of over 50 knots is over 1000 km away to the North-West and is currently expected to make landfall on the West coast of Ireland  on Sunday afternoon with wind speeds of over 40 knots... still 1000 km away from the Spirit of Discovery's estimated position at that time.
 

[Windsurfboy]

9 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

To what extent is the weather "similar?"

 

Our understanding is that at11.10 GMT today (11 Dec 2023) the Spirit of Discovery was about 100 miles West of Brest in NW France and was cruising through a near gale winds pf 14.0 m/s (about 28 knots) and in high seas of 5.2 m. The forecast for the route to Lisbon is for better weather... less wind... calmer seas and warmer temps.

The bad weather in the mid-Atlantic with wind speed of over 50 knots is over 1000 km away to the North-West and is currently expected to make landfall on the West coast of Ireland  on Sunday afternoon with wind speeds of over 40 knots... still 1000 km away from the Spirit of Discovery's estimated position at that time.
 

 

The current  bad weather in mid Atlantic is not relevant

 

On the last cruise the route from Maderia to UK  route didn't  take us to mid Atlantic but up coast , through Trafalgar,  then Fitzroy/ Biscay border into English  Channel. 

 

We went early to miss a low , which according to Met office and others was gale/near gale with similiar wind to those you quote for SoD currently.  That is what I meant by similiar.  The forecasts were for gale not for next level up of wind ie storm force.  We had a much smoother trip,  but the sacrifice was no Maderia and a curtailed cruise. 

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, Banjo an said:

You’re right. Weather looks nasty out there. Cynical I may be, but missing four ports, being stuck in Lisbon for three days and losing a day at the end is not what we booked or paid for.

 

I completely agree with you,  and so did many others. Hopefully everyone is letting Nigel Blanks and Saga know how they feel

Edited December 9, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

We went early to miss a low , which according to Met office and others was gale/near gale with similiar wind to those you quote for SoD currently.  That is what I meant by similiar.  The forecasts were for gale not for next level up of wind ie storm force.  We had a much smoother trip,  but the sacrifice was no Maderia and a curtailed cruise. 

 

That's one of the problems of cruising in this part of the world in winter.

 

Over the course of five decades we've experienced gale force 10, hurricane force winds, sub-zero temperatures, abandoned ports, damage to the ship, decks covered with snow after blizzards and the structure of the ship caked in inches of ice.... and once went "full-steam ahead" for 24 hours without making any headway...add sea water encroaching into the ship from the decks, spray engulfing the entire bridge, structural damage to the ship and you've have a wee idea of some of the more "exciting aspects of winter cruising" that we've experienced.

 

And... we well remember one captain of a very small ship... FOCLs Black Prince (less than 500 passengers) when we cruised to Greenland one summer explaining as we bounced, lurched and tossed through mountainous seas and are convinced that we "levitated from our beds at night!) Captain... "Well, it is the North Atlantic.!"

 

If we just wanted a resort type holiday in winter there are lots of places on land... some run on a cruise type basis with evening shows and such-like. Our motto... "Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Be grateful for small mercies!"

[Windsurfboy]

I understand we will miss ports in bad weather at this time of year.

 

However what I'm trying to get my mind around is reason for SoD deciding it's OK to sail though a gale yesterday, but not OK a week before. What has changed, what has made ship more robust and perhaps more comfortable  in bad weather. This is all in context of 3 days in port in Lisbon whilst engineers were fixing and recertification of system.  Was more work done in Portsmouth. 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[Banjo an]

Yes, I agree. Not being told the truth is annoying. Missing ports due to bad weather is one thing. However, missing ports because the ship is not fit for purpose is another.

[Windsurfboy]

The other question I  have is why was our first port of call Lisbon.  Given that this was a winter sun cruise. Once we could not go to Azores , why did we not aim for Maderia or one of the many  Canaries ports where we would have more chance I'd sun. Rather than Lisbon.

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

I understand we will miss ports in bad weather at this time of year.

 

However what I'm trying to get my mind around is reason for SoD deciding it's OK to sail though a gale yesterday, but not OK a week before. What has changed, what has made ship more robust and perhaps more comfortable  in bad weather. This is all in context of 3 days in port in Lisbon whilst engineers were fixing and recertification of system.  Was more work done in Portsmouth. 

 

 

We have every trust in the Government's Marine Accident Investigation Branch which is currently investigating the incident on the Spirit of Discovery, where there was a loss of propulsion of a UK in the Bay of Biscay, resulting in multiple passenger injuries during heavy weather on 4/11/23 will produce a comprehensive, detailed authoritative report and we're happy to wait for that.

 

In the meantime... if there was a current problem we doubt that the ship would be allowed to sail out of any UK port... as one UK based cruise-line has discovered in the past when it was not permitted to leave Southampton or, on another occasion, Newcastle.

 

This investigation is very probably taking place under the UK Kingdom Merchant Shipping (Accident Reporting and Investigation) Regulations 2012 – Regulation 5: and the “The sole objective of a safety investigation into an accident under these Regulations shall be the prevention of future accidents through the ascertainment of its causes and circumstances."

 

There is usually an interim report published within a month or two of an incident. The full report takes longer and has consultation stages for stakeholders.

 

While folks like us, regardless of our own experience and knowledge, can only presume, speculate and guess on the basis of scraps of information that we may or may-not chose to believe, the Government's Marine Accident Investigation Branch has the knowledge, skills, experience and expertise to use the vast amount of technical data and records at their disposal to fully understand, what happened, why it happened and how it can be prevented from happening again.

 

We wouldn't be surprised if the final report was to make up to 500 pages and have additional material as annexes. So pretty detailed stuff. 

 

So we're booked on `'the Spirit" again... and hope that the food was as good as last time, the entertainment was as enjoyable and the premium drinks are still "on the house."

[Banjo an]

That maybe, but that doesn’t explain why after three days in Lisbon possibly making repairs, it was still deemed necessary to shorten the cruise and eventually “limp” back to Portsmouth and then sail a day late on the next cruise!

[Alchymist]

Whilst I shall be intrigued to read the MAIB report in due course, let us not forget that it is the MCA who decide whether a vessel is safe to sail and I would expect them to have been heavily involved when SOD got back to Pompey after the "incident". The data and bridge recorder information will presumably have been available to them then? (Those interested in the MAIB and their work could take a look at their website maib.gov.uk  .)

[Whiteduck1]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

The other question I  have is why was our first port of call Lisbon.  Given that this was a winter sun cruise. Once we could not go to Azores , why did we not aim for Maderia or one of the many  Canaries ports where we would have more chance I'd sun. Rather than Lisbon.

OK. Here is my humble opinion and I'm obviously not a marine expert so I won't try to pass judgement about missing Madeira on the return. This cruise spent 3 unscheduled days in Lisbon (not weather related) on the way to the Caribbean. I can see why Windsurfboy is upset he paid a large amount of money for this cruise, probably £30,000 and even if Saga contractually doesn't need to they need to sell suites going forward and need to keep this quiet limited market happy, ... 

[Whiteduck1]

8 minutes ago, Whiteduck1 said:

OK. Here is my humble opinion and I'm obviously not a marine expert so I won't try to pass judgement about missing Madeira on the return. This cruise spent 3 unscheduled days in Lisbon (not weather related) on the way to the Caribbean. I can see why Windsurfboy is upset he paid a large amount of money for this cruise, probably £30,000 and even if Saga contractually doesn't need to they need to sell suites going forward and need to keep this quiet limited market happy, ... 

Quite! 

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, Whiteduck1 said:

OK. Here is my humble opinion and I'm obviously not a marine expert so I won't try to pass judgement about missing Madeira on the return. This cruise spent 3 unscheduled days in Lisbon (not weather related) on the way to the Caribbean. I can see why Windsurfboy is upset he paid a large amount of money for this cruise, probably £30,000 and even if Saga contractually doesn't need to they need to sell suites going forward and need to keep this quiet limited market happy, ... 

 

Not sure what the "contractually" refers to. It was reported ages ago that SAGA offered a 100% refund.

 

By the way, that 'limited market" resulted in and increase in occupancy from 66% to 83% in the last half year, an increase in passenger spend from £318 per diem to £333 per diem and discussion about adding a third ship to the existing fleet. Cruise and travel have moved from an £11 million loss to an £11 million profit. Revenues have increased from £162 million in the half year to 25 Sep 2022 to £206 million in this last half year. SAGA still seems to be experiencing strong demand for cruises.

 

Many SAGA passengers are very experienced travellers, can tell many traveller tales of their adventures good and bad and have weighed up the pros and cons of traveling with different cruise-lines. SAGA after all is not unique in having problems... passengers on another ship in the same area about the same time reported that it was... "a very traumatising experience we thought we would sink and feared for our lives." Quite starkly another witness wrote, "We thought we were going to die!" The owners of that ship only offered 50% off a future cruise if taken in 12 months!

 

We think that SAGA passengers will take a wide range of factors into account when they are booking. We certainly do. We have two SAGA cruises booked for 2024 and are looking out with eager anticipation for one or two more. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by twotravellersLondon

[Whiteduck1]

8 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

Not sure what the "contractually" refers to. It was reported ages ago that SAGA offered a 100% refund.

 

By the way, that 'limited market" resulted in and increase in occupancy from 66% to 83% in the last half year, an increase in passenger spend from £318 per diem to £333 per diem and discussion about adding a third ship to the existing fleet. Cruise and travel have moved from an £11 million loss to an £11 million profit. Revenues have increased from £162 million in the half year to 25 Sep 2022 to £206 million in this last half year. SAGA still seems to be experiencing strong demand for cruises.

 

Many SAGA passengers are very experienced travellers, can tell many traveller tales of their adventures good and bad and have weighed up the pros and cons of traveling with different cruise-lines. SAGA after all is not unique in having problem... passengers on another ship in the same area about the same time reported that it was... "a very traumatising experience we thought we would sink and feared for our lives." Quite starkly another witness wrote, "We thought we were going to die!"

 

We think that SAGA passengers will take a wide range of factors into account when they are booking. We certainly do. We have two SAGA cruises booked for 2024 and are looking out with eager anticipation for one or two more. 

 

 

Sorry, I was talking about the Caribbean cruise not the one before, I didn't release they had been given offered a 100%refund 

[Whiteduck1]

1 minute ago, Whiteduck1 said:

Sorry, I was talking about the Caribbean cruise not the one before, I didn't release they had been given offered a 100%refund 

I didn't think that the Caribbean cruise had been offered anything for the 3 days in Lisbon 

[twotravellersLondon]

14 minutes ago, Whiteduck1 said:

I didn't think that the Caribbean cruise had been offered anything for the 3 days in Lisbon 

 

We're not up on that one I'm afraid...  be interested to see what you discover.

 

However the comments about how well SAGA is doing are all in their Financial report. Very interesting reading but bound to upset a certain coterie.

Edited December 9, 2023 by twotravellersLondon

[Whiteduck1]

4 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

We're not up on that one I'm afraid...  be interested to see what you discover.

 

However the comments about how well SAGA is doing are all in their Financial report. Very interesting reading but bound to upset a certain coterie.

That was just crossed wires I think.. We were  talking about different cruises. Very easy when this thread does seem to jump... 

[JMMKUK]

3 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

The other question I  have is why was our first port of call Lisbon.  Given that this was a winter sun cruise. Once we could not go to Azores , why did we not aim for Maderia or one of the many  Canaries ports where we would have more chance I'd sun. Rather than Lisbon.

We've managed to land in the Azores twice. Neither time did we see the sun. At least the 2nd time when it was a replacement for Funchal we saw on the included excursion the blue & green lake that we had paiid to see previously.

We had sun in Funchal on Sapphire Dec 2015. It was truly amazing. We left ahead of the named storm.

That was the lady overboard cruise. We had to turn back into the storm we were infront of but we learnt a lot about the rules of the sea. Only remember a few guest moaning, most of us were upset for her friend.

[Windsurfboy]

I was talking about way out, why did we choose to stop at Lisbon,  rather than Canaries or Maderia. We were told ship was fine as it left Portsmouth,  the descision for Lisbon was made before then so at that time no reason not to go further south. If we had then 3 days in sun may have been a bit better than Lisbon. 

[Windsurfboy]

The biggest problem with this cruise was the 3 days fixing the "engine/propulsion /stabilisation" not weather related issues. Maintenance of the engine is a definite  Saga responsibility,  it cannot be thought of as the same weather, which is out of anyone's control. 

[Banjo an]

Yes I concur. The problems were not due to weather and should have been sorted before the ship sailed.

[Alchymist]

10 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

The biggest problem with this cruise was the 3 days fixing the "engine/propulsion /stabilisation" not weather related issues. Maintenance of the engine is a definite  Saga responsibility,  it cannot be thought of as the same weather, which is out of anyone's control. 

I agree. Indeed, if there were engine problems, I am surprised - perhaps shocked - that these were not addressed before leaving Portsmouth.

[Windsurfboy]

I  do believe them that they didn't know about it before we sailed. It was a new Captain from previous cruise (surprise  surprise ), to sail with a known defect could cost his licence. 

 

However that doesn't change the fact that reliability and maintenance is Saga's  responsibility . I  just want them to acknowledge that we didn't get the cruise we looked forward too, and it was not all due to external factors weather etc. Not to pretend 3 days in Lisbon is normal. Neither can a Portsmouth Christmas market be deemed part of a Carribean Islands cruise.

 

It's more about not being taken as a fool than compensation, fortunately  this was just one of 3 cruises and two long haul holidays this year (Greta will hate me),  but for some it could be a special holiday of a lifetime. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[lincslady]

Anyone on the current cruise?  I haven't seen any reports so far - maybe I have just missed them - but it would be interesting to hear how it is going.  I see she was in Lisbon yesterday, and is now heading for the Canaries.  Hope it is going smoothly and everything working as it should.

[Glenndale]

12 hours ago, lincslady said:

Anyone on the current cruise?  I haven't seen any reports so far - maybe I have just missed them - but it would be interesting to hear how it is going.  I see she was in Lisbon yesterday, and is now heading for the Canaries.  Hope it is going smoothly and everything working as it should.

After we left Portsmouth on Friday pm we had a couple of quite bumpy days and missed A Coruna instead heading for Lisbon which was to be our final port of call.

Tenerife on the 13th and final port will now be Madeira. Seas are a lot calmer now.