Saga cutting corners and going the way of P&O?

[Harry Peterson]

Genuine question from someone thinking of defecting from P&O to Saga.

 

I’ve seen a lot of reports lately of cutbacks on Saga leading to poor or indifferent dining experiences, less than pleasant travel arrangements to and from ports and other general dissatisfaction. This is the way it went with P&O and Saga seemed an alternative - albeit at considerably higher prices.

 

What has really put me off Saga though, apart from but linked to the above, is their treatment earlier this year of their Saga Magazine life members. We paid a pretty hefty sum to Saga for the privilege of receiving Saga magazine for life. Earlier this year, though, Saga wrote to all the life members telling them that it was too expensive for them to carry on sending the magazine - to receive it in future we’d have to pay for it all over again every year. 
 

Given that they were quite happy to break their contract on this, I no longer feel I can trust them on insurance or cruises, and the cutbacks I read about all seem linked to their considerable financial difficulties. 
 

Looking for feedback really - what’s actually happening on the cruise front, what’s the impact of the cutbacks, and how are Saga reacting to issues raised? They wouldn’t budge on the broken life membership contract issue, and it concerns me that finance is now dictating outcomes.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Harry Peterson

[Windsurfboy]

I had 30 days with only one disappointing meal, the rest  good, or very good. Although I must confess over half of these were in speciality restaurants. The drink has improved with decent malt whiskey and armangnac included, but if you want more than a drinkable everyday wine it's extra. Service round ship is good. 

 

I have one other Saga cruise booked , but am reserving judgement on booking any more until they respond to complaint about Carribean cruise.  See what the do about 2 extra days stuck in Lisbon with broken engine

[Banjo an]

2 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

I had 30 days with only one disappointing meal, the rest  good, or very good. Although I must confess over half of these were in speciality restaurants. The drink has improved with decent malt whiskey and armangnac included, but if you want more than a drinkable everyday wine it's extra. Service round ship is good. 

 

I have one other Saga cruise booked , but am reserving judgement on booking any more until they respond to complaint about Carribean cruise.  See what the do about 2 extra days stuck in Lisbon with broken engine

My sentiments entirely. Btw. Did I meet you playing table tennis on the said cruise.

[JoJo1947]

Speaking as I find I've never had any bad things happen to us on a Saga Cruise so I've no idea what you are talking about. Nothings perfect and seas change frequently. Just chill people. Wouldn't sail with anyone else. 

[FannyLiz]

Writing as someone who has just completed their first cruise ever, 30 days to the Caribbean with Saga, I can’t see any way Saga could improve. If their standards are slipping then they must have been phenomenal before !

 

Food was consistently excellent ( with the exception of one rather tough steak in the Club), and the variety was superb. Service went above and beyond in every aspect and department and the staff were amazing: efficient, friendly, intelligent, hard working and with remarkable memories. I didn’t participate in many of the activities or entertainment but that was my choice. There was plenty to do and watch and, from the accounts of those who did take part, it was all good. 

 

Transport to and from the port was efficient and stress free as was the almost automatic insurance. HQ staff were always friendly and patient on the phone.
 

Little luxuries, the turn down service, daily fruit bowl, ice creams, Werthers Originals, blankets and towels on loungers and so on added to the sense of being spoiled. 
 

Yes, I was disappointed that we missed several ports but would rather that than being storm tossed or frightened. I would have appreciated more explanation as to why they were missed but this could be because the ultimate cause is still sub judice until the end of the MAIB investigations. 

 

As to the Saga magazine, as Saga insurance customers we used to read it online and, if I wish, I could still do that. Many of the organisations and clubs I belong to are doing away with expensive printed magazines in favour of digital copies. I would rather Saga do that than cut back on holiday services.

Edited December 15, 2023 by FannyLiz
To add last sentence

[Windsurfboy]

2 hours ago, Banjo an said:

My sentiments entirely. Btw. Did I meet you playing table tennis on the said cruise.

 

I certainly played table tennis quite a lot , a really nice crowd.

 

Gareth

[Mollag]

I’m with FannyLiz only the 2 Saga cruises under the belt but hard to find fault with anything as for food quality I would say the offerings in theMDR are superior than P&Os speciality restaurants and totally agree with the feeling spoiled comment we both had birthdays on board and treated like royalty with gifts and surprises for them and also on Xmas day, whereas on the other lot for Easter there was an A4 bit of card which they couldn’t be bothered even folding so I don’t think you need to be too concerned Harry make the jump!

[Harry Peterson]

Just for clarification, the changes and cutbacks I referred to in the original post are quite recent - within the last month or so.  I'd particularly welcome comments from anyone cruising with Saga from, say, November on.

 

What really made me think was the juxtaposition of two things (coupled with the breaking of all the life membership contracts by Saga) - the recent reports of cutbacks and this article in the Telegraph (probably paywalled I'm afraid) on 30 November:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/30/inside-scramble-save-saga-debt-mountain-euan-sutherland/  (The scramble to save Saga from sinking under a mountain of debt)

 

Is this scramble to save Saga being reflected in current cruises I wonder?

[Mollag]

54 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Just for clarification, the changes and cutbacks I referred to in the original post are quite recent - within the last month or so.  I'd particularly welcome comments from anyone cruising with Saga from, say, November on.

 

What really made me think was the juxtaposition of two things (coupled with the breaking of all the life membership contracts by Saga) - the recent reports of cutbacks and this article in the Telegraph (probably paywalled I'm afraid) on 30 November:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/30/inside-scramble-save-saga-debt-mountain-euan-sutherland/  (The scramble to save Saga from sinking under a mountain of debt)

 

Is this scramble to save Saga being reflected in current cruises I wonder?

We wee on the Cape Verde one got home a week last Monday no issues at all

[Alchymist]

Well, there was a Norovirus outbreak! To give due credit, this was handled quickly and rigorously - but it was an issue that had a significant effect upon activities.

[Mollag]

45 minutes ago, Alchymist said:

Well, there was a Norovirus outbreak! To give due credit, this was handled quickly and rigorously - but it was an issue that had a significant effect upon activities.

IMO the impact on activities was a small price to pay for eradicating the problem so quickly P&O would still not have admitted having a problem two weeks later

[khkate]

Saga markets itself as an all-inclusive, luxury cruise line. However, with the introduction of their new ships, things slipped a bit, especially post-pandemic. Generally, the transport TO the ship is excellent, but it has been noticed (and commented on by many) that the transport home after the cruise can be sub-standard. It also seems that on occasions, Saga have resorted to using Uber, which is not necessarily the same standard of driver or vehicle as one expects when they have previously used Titan Mercedes MPVs or similar. 

 

Also, their "included" insurance has so many exclusions - it is much more likely than one can be refused that cover - they prefer to suggest you try the "paid" insurance policies from their own insurance arm (and this can be more expensive than travel ins policies from other companies). 

 

Food is always controversial, but even pre-pandemic, it was noticeable that portions became smaller, and the choices less, or more limited. Menus got repeated more often too. The choice of included drinks is basically "house" wines and spirits - branded drinks have to be paid for. 

 

They say you get included excursions, but these often are only panoramic ones. If you actually want to explore a bit more 'in-depth', you have to pay for it, or book your own. 

 

I think Saga now base their expensive fares on the fact that every cabin is an outside cabin with a balcony. But it is very noticeable that their range of cruise itineraries have become very limited and repetitive. I think before you make the "leap" from P&O (or indeed any other line) to Saga, you need to compare prices on a like-for-like basis (meaning similar standard of cabin and similar itinerary. 

[FannyLiz]

32 minutes ago, khkate said:

 

 

Food is always controversial, but even pre-pandemic, it was noticeable that portions became smaller, and the choices less, or more limited. Menus got repeated more often too. The choice of included drinks is basically "house" wines and spirits - branded drinks have to be paid for. 

One of the good features that many of us remarked upon during the recent (7 th Nov to 7 th Dec) Caribbean cruise was that the portions of food were not huge. As part of a multi- course meal they were absolutely spot on. Anyone feeling unsatisfied or unable to decide between the several choices, could have another portion. The order for this was taken without a comment. 
 

This policy meant that there was minimum food waste, surely a good thing on all counts, and diners left the table feeling satisfied, not stuffed.

 

As to variety and repetition of menus, my observation in the MDR was that, in 30 days, there was one repetition of each dish and this was never in the same menu as it had been earlier. In the Grill, where I ate lunch, the variety of made up salads each day, cleverly using ingredients from previous days, was impressive and delicious.

 

The house wines were perfectly acceptable and there was a good selection of branded spirits available without charge.  I don’t recall anyone having to pay for any drink.

[Cynthia Darch]

Having cruised with P&O for 30 plus years we have recently moved across to Saga and the difference on all counts is wonderful. P&O are only interested in piling there ships high with cheap fares which has reduced the quality of offer immeasurably and, the standard of passenger now sailing with them has dropped to a low degree.Yes of course there are many decent passengers on board but they are so outweighed by those who enjoy nose picking contests, changing the baby's nappy on the dining room table, even urinating in the lift. As for the food offer oh my goodness that has gone so far downhill even in the speciality restaurants. So in my opinion the move across to Saga has been the right decision and after 3 cruises this year the service by the staff, the excellent dining experiences and entertainment has been bounds ahead of P&O, so would I recommend switching over to Saga the answer is definitely. P&O is no longer the P&O of years ago, it's become a cheap Butlins type of cruise line and if you like that, then fine.    

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, Cynthia Darch said:

the standard of passenger now sailing with them has dropped to a low degree.Yes of course there are many decent passengers on board but they are so outweighed by those who enjoy nose picking contests, changing the baby's nappy on the dining room table, even urinating in the lift.  

 

Must of been a nightmare cruise to have witnessed all this on P&O

[Harry Peterson]

2 hours ago, khkate said:

Saga markets itself as an all-inclusive, luxury cruise line. However, with the introduction of their new ships, things slipped a bit, especially post-pandemic. Generally, the transport TO the ship is excellent, but it has been noticed (and commented on by many) that the transport home after the cruise can be sub-standard. It also seems that on occasions, Saga have resorted to using Uber, which is not necessarily the same standard of driver or vehicle as one expects when they have previously used Titan Mercedes MPVs or similar. 

The reference to Uber explains quite a lot. Two particular examples recently have concerned me, both involving journeys home.

 

The first related to a shared journey home in an Octavia which wasn’t capable of taking all the luggage in the boot. One of the passengers had to be squeezed into the back with the excess - hardly very safe in the event of an accident.

 

The second, even worse, involved friends of ours who were actually terrified because of what they saw as nothing short of dangerous driving. The driver spoke no English, didn’t know the route, and was using a handheld phone en route both to translate and find his way.  Communications were near impossible, which didn’t help, hence the reliance on Google Translate.

 

These changes will have arisen because of Saga’s precarious financial position, but there’s absolutely no excuse for putting passengers’ lives at risk.

[Cynthia Darch]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

Must of been a nightmare cruise to have witnessed all this on P&O

Iona

[twotravellersLondon]

3 hours ago, khkate said:

Saga markets itself as an all-inclusive, luxury cruise line. However, with the introduction of their new ships, things slipped a bit, especially post-pandemic. Generally, the transport TO the ship is excellent, but it has been noticed (and commented on by many) that the transport home after the cruise can be sub-standard. It also seems that on occasions, Saga have resorted to using Uber, which is not necessarily the same standard of driver or vehicle as one expects when they have previously used Titan Mercedes MPVs or similar. 

 

Also, their "included" insurance has so many exclusions - it is much more likely than one can be refused that cover - they prefer to suggest you try the "paid" insurance policies from their own insurance arm (and this can be more expensive than travel ins policies from other companies). 

 

Food is always controversial, but even pre-pandemic, it was noticeable that portions became smaller, and the choices less, or more limited. Menus got repeated more often too. The choice of included drinks is basically "house" wines and spirits - branded drinks have to be paid for. 

 

They say you get included excursions, but these often are only panoramic ones. If you actually want to explore a bit more 'in-depth', you have to pay for it, or book your own. 

 

I think Saga now base their expensive fares on the fact that every cabin is an outside cabin with a balcony. But it is very noticeable that their range of cruise itineraries have become very limited and repetitive. I think before you make the "leap" from P&O (or indeed any other line) to Saga, you need to compare prices on a like-for-like basis (meaning similar standard of cabin and similar itinerary. 

 

 

Many people realise that SAGA is a little unusual in the fact that, unlike your own as you seem to have travelled with SAGA in the past, many of the comments and criticisms in posts on all manner of sites are made by many people who have never travelled on SAGA and will never travel on SAGA... but are quite willing for reasons of their own to repeat second hand or third hand criticisms.

 

Ten years ago we more likely to cruise in a balcony cabin with FOCLs rather than spend twice as much for a similar cruise with SAGA... but now FOCLs is as, if not more, expensive than SAGA but SAGA offers far better accommodation, entertainment, food and service.

 

We've had fourteen transfers in the last year. Eight of those have been by SAGA. We've had no problems to or from the ship/airport when we've used SAGA and SAGA has seemed to a bit better than the other companies that we've used. 

 

We're not easy to insure due to age, infirmity and unusual medical conditions and one of us can't get annual insurance unless we go through a specialist health support agency but SAGA cover us for cruises and holidays one by one... the even provide the travel insurance when we travel with other companies... there is no additional premium... we just talk to the underwriters and provide them with the information that they need. We suppose that we could get cheaper insurance from some comparison site but... in our opinion it's probably cheaper because they are far more reluctant to settle claims.

 

Even on a month's voyage with SAGA we've never seen the same menu twice in the Grand Dining Room... although the speciality restaurants do have the same menu each evening.

 

The choice of included drinks in not ""house wines and spirits - branded drinks have to be paid for" premium drinks and spirits are now part of the all-inclusive deal. 

 

The problem is that "They say you get included excursions, but these often are only panoramic ones." but thy may never have travelled with SAGA nor experienced a included excursion with SAGA we have experienced many on four different cruises in the course of the last year and can speak from recent personal experience. We've been to the North Cape in Winter at great expense with two other cruise lines, SAGA took us for free. It was an exciting and exhilarating experience that could be enjoyed by all. Other included excursions can also be used as a free transfer service... unlike with other cruise lines.

 

The off-voiced criticism that SAGA's range "of cruise itineraries have become very limited and repetitive." is exactly what is being said of most cruise lines... but gone from any cruise-line itinerary these days is St Petersburg, the red Sea and Beirut... and bits of North Africa and the `middle East are looking pretty iffy for everybody... different if someone wants to do a fly cruise... most people on SAGA probably don't want to do that. Next year apart from Norway, the Baltic, France, Iberia, the Mediterranean, the Adriatic, Northern Africa, Iceland, Greenland, the Caribbean, the Canaries, the British Isles and Ireland  SAGA will be offering the USA, Canada... we know... we've been booked on some of these cruises for months! So our basic question is... for anyone who thinks that these itineraries are too limiting, too staid, too restrictive and too repetitive... where would you like to go and which company have you chosen to cruise with for a comparable price?

 

We think that your absolutely right in posting, "I think before you make the "leap" from P&O (or indeed any other line) to Saga, you need to compare prices on a like-for-like basis (meaning similar standard of cabin and similar itinerary." We have done to the nth˚ with detailed spreadsheets and all of the mainstream companies offering no-fly cruises out of the  UK.

 

The result is that again and again and again... we end up choosing SAGA because we believe, from our own personal experience that it offers the best value for money.

 

SAGA is not perfect... but compared with the opposition... it's as good as it gets ... a high quality product! At least in our experienced opinion! And by the look of ship averaging well over 80% occupancy and strong bookings... tens of thousands of other people seen to agree. 

[twotravellersLondon]

1 hour ago, Harry Peterson said:

Saga’s precarious financial position

 

SAGA seems to be being rather well compared with the competition....

 

According to the last interim report for the six months to September 2023... SAGA Ocean cruise loading has increased from 66% to 83%, per diem from £318 to £333. The number of Travel Passengers has increased from 20.6 k to 25.7k. Revenue has increased from £44 million to £70 million. The parent company has £3.2 billion in investments. The Insurance sector has £1.6  million policies in force, Travel Insurance revenue has increased from £7.3 million to £8.7 million and the PMI Revenue has increased from £13.6 million to £15.3 million.

 

Figures that Ambassador, FOCLs, and the Carnival brands can only dream of.

[Harry Peterson]

25 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

 

SAGA seems to be being rather well compared with the competition....

 

According to the last interim report for the six months to September 2023... SAGA Ocean cruise loading has increased from 66% to 83%, per diem from £318 to £333. The number of Travel Passengers has increased from 20.6 k to 25.7k. Revenue has increased from £44 million to £70 million. The parent company has £3.2 billion in investments. The Insurance sector has £1.6  million policies in force, Travel Insurance revenue has increased from £7.3 million to £8.7 million and the PMI Revenue has increased from £13.6 million to £15.3 million.

 

Figures that Ambassador, FOCLs, and the Carnival brands can only dream of.

The problem, though, is the huge debt pile.  

 

Its market value, according to the Telegraph article above is ‘a little over £160m’, with debts of £657m. The commentary takes the view that because the large debt dwarves the small value of the company its long term viability remains a question.

 

Little wonder that they’re having to cut costs.

 

 

[twotravellersLondon]

4 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

The problem, though, is the huge debt pile.  

 

Its market value, according to the Telegraph article above is ‘a little over £160m’, with debts of £657m. The commentary takes the view that because the large debt dwarves the small value of the company its long term viability remains a question.

 

Little wonder that they’re having to cut costs.

 

 

  

 

What lies behind that is that both ships were built and fitted on he basis of a mortgage.

 

If someone owns house that they've paid for with a mortgage in reality they have a pile of debt and will have that debt for 25 or 30 years. A house is perhaps not as good a comparison as a van... buy a van on finance... you have a big debt... by the time the van is at the end of it's economic life it will be paid off but you have nothing to show for the "investment" except the scrap value... or do you?... that van may well been a key asset in conducting a business and making a living and enabled you to bring in an income far in excess of the original cost of the van.

 

Ships are the same.

[Harry Peterson]

23 minutes ago, twotravellersLondon said:

  

 

What lies behind that is that both ships were built and fitted on he basis of a mortgage.

 

If someone owns house that they've paid for with a mortgage in reality they have a pile of debt and will have that debt for 25 or 30 years. A house is perhaps not as good a comparison as a van... buy a van on finance... you have a big debt... by the time the van is at the end of it's economic life it will be paid off but you have nothing to show for the "investment" except the scrap value... or do you?... that van may well been a key asset in conducting a business and making a living and enabled you to bring in an income far in excess of the original cost of the van.

 

Ships are the same.

Up to a point, I agree with you. Ships are a little like hotels in that, like hotels, the asset remains, regardless of ownership. It’s not the hotel that goes into receivership or liquidation - it’s the company owning and running it. The hotel carries on under new ownership. Likewise ships. Carnival have been able to sell off ships to save the company, but that’s a little tricky when you only have two! They’ve sold off various other parts of the business to reduce debt but that’s not been enough. 
 

For me the warning alarms started sounding when they unilaterally broke all the life membership contracts, despite loud protests from those who paid Saga a lot of money for them many years ago. It’s highly unusual for a company to break contracts with its own members and customers so blatantly, and it must be really desperate to cut costs to survive. Then I started to read about the cutbacks on cruises, which confirmed it. 
 

A lot of the people who bought those life memberships spent a great deal of money with Saga on travel, insurance and financial products, but they now no longer trust Saga to honour its contracts. That’s not good business, and suggests desperation. Travel companies do go under fairly often, and if that happened to Saga it would leave quite a mess to sort out.

[JoJo1947]

6 hours ago, khkate said:

Saga markets itself as an all-inclusive, luxury cruise line. However, with the introduction of their new ships, things slipped a bit, especially post-pandemic. Generally, the transport TO the ship is excellent, but it has been noticed (and commented on by many) that the transport home after the cruise can be sub-standard. It also seems that on occasions, Saga have resorted to using Uber, which is not necessarily the same standard of driver or vehicle as one expects when they have previously used Titan Mercedes MPVs or similar. 

 

Also, their "included" insurance has so many exclusions - it is much more likely than one can be refused that cover - they prefer to suggest you try the "paid" insurance policies from their own insurance arm (and this can be more expensive than travel ins policies from other companies). 

 

Food is always controversial, but even pre-pandemic, it was noticeable that portions became smaller, and the choices less, or more limited. Menus got repeated more often too. The choice of included drinks is basically "house" wines and spirits - branded drinks have to be paid for. 

 

They say you get included excursions, but these often are only panoramic ones. If you actually want to explore a bit more 'in-depth', you have to pay for it, or book your own. 

 

I think Saga now base their expensive fares on the fact that every cabin is an outside cabin with a balcony. But it is very noticeable that their range of cruise itineraries have become very limited and repetitive. I think before you make the "leap" from P&O (or indeed any other line) to Saga, you need to compare prices on a like-for-like basis (meaning similar standard of cabin and similar itinerary. 

Since beginning of 2023 premium drinks are  included except for champagne and very high end spirits 

[Ladycommonsense]

3 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

 

Must of been a nightmare cruise to have witnessed all this on P&O

I witnessed the same on P&O so many times I lost count ….. the sad thing is that I let it go on for so long before I made the chance to Saga and I am soooo glad that I did. 

[Windsurfboy]

Firstly  I've  looked at the P&O board and threads, general they have gone down , certainly cut out a few extras , e.g. turndowns , fruit in cabin , etc, unles you pay Saga prices and get a suite .There have been complaints that MDR food has gone down , but also many complements for some of the speciality and alternative restaurants.  However haven't seen anything reported like said about them here.

 

Sticking to Saga

 

On the otherhand I've said before on this forum, Saga food is better than Cunard Queens grill, more variety without effort of going off menu. I  only had one dissappointing meal in 30 days , 3 meals returned on last Cunard,  Sagas %  satisfaction , is better than even top 5 star hotels. Service is very good and a lovely ambience across Saga ships. No other ship has anything to match Brittania lounge. Just friendliest ship on water, staff and pasengers . Things have not deteriorated.

 

There are pros and cons of Saga all inclusive. Not big drinkers, but very particular about wine. Normally on cruise we'd have one bottle of very good wine or bubbly a day and not much else. Given that included premium  spirits far better than included wine,  tended not to drink wine with meals, but pre dinner cocktail and after dinner malt. 

 

We've had very bad experience with Saga included panoramic tours, two hours of boredom on a coach.. 

 

I don't understand worry about Saga finance,  pay by credit card.

 

My two issues about future Saga cruises, is limited intinerarys out of UK. Personally I  believe if they think two days in port with broken engine is something they csn brush under carpet,  then this does not bode well for future service