Is this a new Gratuities policy?

[cruising.mark.uk]

2 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

Exactly it's deceptive

 

And deliberately so

 

Theres people in this thread explaining what's behind it all and why they do it. But it doesn't take away the fact it's deceptive and the vast majority don't have the advantage of coming on this forum to have it explained to them like this

I cannot fathom how the text quoted in post 1 is deceptive or non-transparent.  

 

If it can be assumed that someone who books a cruise can read and cares enough about what they are buying to do a little research as to what their fare is paying for, how is it not absolutely clear how the crew appreciation / daily service charge is being allocated?  I do not believe that any native English speaker could infer from that text that this charge was a means for them to reward specific staff for service above and beyond the norm.  If they wish to do that, they need to add a tip / gratuity.

[whitecap]

2 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Do you really think that the cruise lines have not test-marketed this concept?  Or restaurants for that matter?  I can guarantee you that the system is the way it is because the cruise line knows that if it charges $1,120 up front instead of $1,000 with $17 per day for 7 days added on as gratuities, it will sell fewer cruises.  People seem to think that they know the industry better than the people who actually run it.  When you go to a restaurant and see a steak on the menu for $40, if you order it, you are going to pay $48.  You aren't being cheated, or hoodwinked, or deceived.  And the $8 gratuity that you pay is not a "reward" for the server.  It is part of their pay.  We live with this reality every day.  The system is working.  If it weren't, it would change.  Businesses change to evolve to the better.  If they don't, they fail. We have to trust that the people running multi-billion dollar businesses actually have a grasp on this. 

You say the system is working, my take is that the system is scamming those who haven't yet realized that it is happening.  As long as there are those out there that are willing to continue supporting this type of system, it will continue.  As I have stated before, we realized the "scam" a long time ago and have long ago decided that we will not support such activity.  Those that decide to participate, no hard feelings here, you do you, I'll do me.

[Interestedcruisefan]

3 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Do you really think that the cruise lines have not test-marketed this concept?  Or restaurants for that matter?  I can guarantee you that the system is the way it is because the cruise line knows that if it charges $1,120 up front instead of $1,000 with $17 per day for 7 days added on as gratuities, it will sell fewer cruises.  People seem to think that they know the industry better than the people who actually run it.  When you go to a restaurant and see a steak on the menu for $40, if you order it, you are going to pay $48.  You aren't being cheated, or hoodwinked, or deceived.  And the $8 gratuity that you pay is not a "reward" for the server.  It is part of their pay.  We live with this reality every day.  The system is working.  If it weren't, it would change.  Businesses change to evolve to the better.  If they don't, they fail. We have to trust that the people running multi-billion dollar businesses actually have a grasp on this. 

P and O (UK based) include tips in the upfront price they charge for the cruise. All the staff pay is covered in that. 

 

They aren't failing. Still cheaper than land based holiday suppliers and carrying more passengers than ever before 

 

Zero deception and no obligation to pay any tips on board. 

 

We still do to cabin stewards and people who serve us well

 

Maybe P and O are more ethical than Princess?

 

Or maybe Princess can just get away with it for as long as they can

[Interestedcruisefan]

1 minute ago, whitecap said:

You say the system is working, my take is that the system is scamming those who haven't yet realized that it is happening.  As long as there are those out there that are willing to continue supporting this type of system, it will continue.  As I have stated before, we realized the "scam" a long time ago and have long ago decided that we will not support such activity.  Those that decide to participate, no hard feelings here, you do you, I'll do me.

Exactly

[Interestedcruisefan]

4 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I cannot fathom how the text quoted in post 1 is deceptive or non-transparent.  

 

If it can be assumed that someone who books a cruise can read and cares enough about what they are buying to do a little research as to what their fare is paying for, how is it not absolutely clear how the crew appreciation / daily service charge is being allocated?  I do not believe that any native English speaker could infer from that text that this charge was a means for them to reward specific staff for service above and beyond the norm.  If they wish to do that, they need to add a tip / gratuity.

Smallprint is where people hide stuff they don't want you to know. 

 

You will hear in adverts on UK radio all the time now that advertising standards make the advertisers say the smallpriny verbally at the end of the advert

 

There should be buyer beware notes all over what cruiselines are doing and there should no  longer be allowed to use the word gratuities or crew appreciation in the headlines to describe these fees

 

Then hiding it in the smallprint

 

 

 

[Interestedcruisefan]

I read a news article the other week where a business owner put in the smallprint of some terms and conditions that the first person to contact them and ask for a bottle of fine wine to be delivered would win a bottle of fine wine

 

And he then waited 6 months until someone claimed it

 

To highlight the fact nobody reads smallprint and how it can be used

 

With cruiselines you would like to think they were trustworthy enough not to try and put things in smallpriny like this to remove transparency

[JimmyVWine]

6 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

Maybe P and O are more ethical than Princess?

 

 

7 minutes ago, whitecap said:

You say the system is working, my take is that the system is scamming those who haven't yet realized that it is happening.  

Then every restaurant that you have ever dined in that pays its workers less than non-tipped workers and that does not include the gratuity as a built-in cost of the food item it sells you is unethical, deceptive and is guilty of scamming its customers. Fascinating.   

[Interestedcruisefan]

11 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I cannot fathom how the text quoted in post 1 is deceptive or non-transparent.  

 

If it can be assumed that someone who books a cruise can read and cares enough about what they are buying to do a little research as to what their fare is paying for, how is it not absolutely clear how the crew appreciation / daily service charge is being allocated?  I do not believe that any native English speaker could infer from that text that this charge was a means for them to reward specific staff for service above and beyond the norm.  If they wish to do that, they need to add a tip / gratuity.

Couldn't disagree more with this Mark

 

This is highly significant money and I know for a fact all my family have been paying tips direct to cruise ships for the wrong reasons 

 

You must accept that this is deliberate ploy by cruiselines to mislead

 

And they're done it so brilliantly for so long

 

It's actually a shoddy industry when you delve deeper

[cruising.mark.uk]

6 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

 

 

Then hiding it in the smallprint

 

 

 

There's smallprint and there's smallprint.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether this particular example is hidden or lacks transparency.

 

Individual books a Princess cruise and is informed there is a daily crew appreciation / service charge.  Wanting to be an informed consumer who knows what they are getting for their money, they type crew appreciation in search / FAQ on the Princess site and get the explanation at post 1.  

[whitecap]

2 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

Then every restaurant that you have ever dined in that pays its workers less than non-tipped workers and that does not include the gratuity as a built-in cost of the food item it sells you is unethical, deceptive and is guilty of scamming its customers. Fascinating.   

Good attempt at mis-direction.  First, if there is a minimum wage requirement, it is up to the employer to pay that amount; if they raise the cost of their steak to compensate for the increase in minimum wage, so be it.  But if you are asking me to "tip" to make up for the employer's lack of paying the minimum wage, you are out of luck.  I pay a fair price for a good meal and I tip the server for good service.  I will not tip to make up for the employer not paying a good wage.  

[whitecap]

My eyesight isn't as good as it use to be.  Could someone please help me find where on this package of Chicken Nuggets it says how much Chicken it contains? 

[FeliciaB]

2 hours ago, whitecap said:

I believe that most cruisers believe that by paying the gratuities, they are tipping those crew members on their cruise who provided good or exceptional services.  They very well may not be.  The gratuities paid, as stated in the Princess paperwork, go into a pool, controlled by Princess and distributed by Princess throughout the fleet!  Your room steward may never see a dime of the gratuities you paid and the same for those in the dining room who served you so well.  

If I go to a restaurant and the wait staff does an excellent job, I don't hand the owner extra money to be put in his or her pocket, to be distributed, throughout the year to all those who work at the restaurant.  Why should it be any different when cruising.  With the exception of our very first cruise (we are now over 50), we have always removed the gratuities, obtained small envelopes from Customer Service desk, and given tips directly to the persons who went above and beyond to see to it that we enjoyed our cruise.  

I think that the employees are expected to hand over at least as much as they would have received as part of the pooled auto crew appreciation and if they don't the expectation from their manager is that they did a poor job if that happens on a regular basis.  There is an acknowledgement that sometimes you can do a great job and get stiffed and to an extent the pooled tips will help make up for that, but if cruise after cruise it is happening and they are turning in less than the other attendants, I am sure it will be noted on their performance reviews.  If you work at a place where the expectation is that tips are pooled and everyone else is turning in say an average of $200 per week but you turn in $50 week after week and pocket the extra $150 and then still take your share of the shared tips, you will end up with the crappier assignments if you keep your job at all.  And the crew knows it.  It isn't worth an extra $20-50 in their pocket to loose their job.  

And it is different at restaurants in the US.  Most places, jobs that regularly get tips are paid less up front and in some cases lower than minimum wage and the employer only has to increase that if with tips, it doesn't cover that.  I just looked up my state, and the minimum wage is $15 but tipped employees can be paid as little as $3.63.  And you can bet, that if that is what they are being paid, they aren't going to stay at that job if they aren't making $15 or more with tips.  

[Interestedcruisefan]

15 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

There's smallprint and there's smallprint.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether this particular example is hidden or lacks transparency.

 

Individual books a Princess cruise and is informed there is a daily crew appreciation / service charge.  Wanting to be an informed consumer who knows what they are getting for their money, they type crew appreciation in search / FAQ on the Princess site and get the explanation at post 1.  

To find it's actually a "staff compensation" charge

 

Which is exactly  what they should call it when they inform you what they intend to do

 

Rather than calling it something  flowery and misleading when you book then telling you what it really is should you go looking further 

 

 

And guys can you imagine the manhours they've put into discussing the best wording they could pick to get away with this knowing vast majority wont delve deeper

 

I can picture it now

 

They know what they are doing and how to take advantage of as many passengers as they can with this

 

Masters at work!!

[JimmyVWine]

14 minutes ago, whitecap said:

Good attempt at mis-direction.  First, if there is a minimum wage requirement, it is up to the employer to pay that amount; if they raise the cost of their steak to compensate for the increase in minimum wage, so be it.  But if you are asking me to "tip" to make up for the employer's lack of paying the minimum wage, you are out of luck.  I pay a fair price for a good meal and I tip the server for good service.  I will not tip to make up for the employer not paying a good wage.  

Then you clearly do not understand how restaurants operate, because they are doing exactly what you say you won't do in your last sentence.  If the state minimum wage is $16 and the waiter is earning $8 from the employer, then your tip is what brings his wage up to $16.  You are making up for the employer not paying a good wage.  How are you not understanding this?

[Interestedcruisefan]

2 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

To find it's actually a "staff compensation" charge

 

Which is exactly  what they should call it when they inform you what they intend to do

 

Rather than calling it something  flowery and misleading when you book then telling you what it really is should you go looking further 

 

 

And guys can you imagine the manhours they've put into discussing the best wording they could pick to get away with this knowing vast majority wont delve deeper

 

I can picture it now

 

They know what they are doing and how to take advantage of as many passengers as they can with this

 

Masters at work!!

And there's plenty of experienced cruisers in this thread not happy with it and only just realising what's been done to us

 

And we should know better than most!!

[Torfamm]

49 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

That will be outlawed in USA soon enough like every other civilised country is doing

 

And in those locations the money is going to servers and kitchens staff who have earnt tips through good service

 

We know who we are tipping and why

 

On a cruise ship we are basically subsidising wages of the entire staff on board? 

 

That's not how tips work?

 

 

Actually it's not how it works.  We often don't know who we are tipping at restaurants.  Many times tips are shared among various staff who we may never see or pooled and shared among all employees. The division of those tips is not necessarily based on customer satisfaction or good service.

 

Most commonly in the US the amount people chose to leave as a tip is based primarily on a percentage of the total of their bill rather than on service received.  For example, if someone purchases a $10 meal, a normal tip might be around $2 or $3 or if someone feels generous or gets exceptional service, maybe $5.  For a $100 meal, the tip is expected to be in the neighborhood of $20. What a server receives in tips depends much more on what customers chose to order than on the service they provide.

Edited May 29 by Torfamm

[Interestedcruisefan]

2 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Then you clearly do not understand how restaurants operate, because they are doing exactly what you say you won't do in your last sentence.  If the state minimum wage is $16 and the waiter is earning $8 from the employer, then your tip is what brings his wage up to $16.  You are making up for the employer not paying a good wage.  How are you not understanding this?

Are my tips to a server in a restaurant bringing up the wages of every single employee of the restaurant or just the person who served me who I want to help and tip?

[Torfamm]

1 minute ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

Are my tips to a server in a restaurant bringing up the wages of every single employee of the restaurant or just the person who served me who I want to help and tip?

That depends on the restaurant. Tip pooling is a very common practice.

[Interestedcruisefan]

4 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

Actually it's not how it works.  We often don't know who we are tipping at restaurants.  Many times tips are shared among various staff who we may never see or pooled and shared among all employees. The division of those tips is not necessarily based on good service.

 

In the US the amount people most commonly leave as a tip, is based mostly on a percentage of the total of their check than on service received.  For example, if someone purchases a $10 meal, a normal tip might be around $2 or $3 or if someone feels generous or gets exceptional service, maybe $5.  For a $100 meal, the tip is expected to be in the neighborhood of $20. What a server receives in tips depends much more on what customers order than the service they provide.

In Canada the job everyone wants is server 

 

They retain vast majority of the tips and make a fortune in a busy restaurant 

 

They give a proportion to other staff supporting them (happily) including chefs 

 

But they retain the vast majority

 

And when we tip in restaurants we are tipping based on the service the server gives us

 

In Canada and Alaska in the restaurants and bars on land the service was invariably superb

 

You can see how much servers value their jobs

[whitecap]

Just now, JimmyVWine said:

Then you clearly do not understand how restaurants operate, because they are doing exactly what you say you won't do in your last sentence.  If the state minimum wage is $16 and the waiter is earning $8 from the employer, then your tip is what brings his wage up to $16.  You are making up for the employer not paying a good wage.  How are you not understanding this?

And how are you not understanding that I don't go to restaurants that use my "tip" as a wage booster.  Just because the State says its ok for an employer to pay less than the minimum wage, take the employee's "tips" and use it to supplement their wage, doesn't make it right.  I tip to say thank you for great service, not be an extra employer paying a portion of their wages.  I tip my room steward for giving me good service, not to allow Princess to "pool" my money and then disperse it to whomever they want, on whatever ship they may be on, throughout the year!  Raise the price of the cruise fare by $300, pay a good wage and tell your customers that there is no tipping.  Don't tell them it is "crew appreciation" and do whatever the heck you want with it.  By the way, did you find where the chicken is? 🤔 

[Interestedcruisefan]

4 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

That depends on the restaurant. Tip pooling is a very common practice.

To the chefs and the runners 

 

Not to the admin staff. The cleaners and the rest.

 

We are subsidising an entire organisation on Princess. Electricians, plumbers you name it we are topping up their wages 

 

None of which to do with service received as people know and believe it to be

[karatemom2]

12 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

Actually it's not how it works.  We often don't know who we are tipping at restaurants.  Many times tips are shared among various staff who we may never see or pooled and shared among all employees. The division of those tips is not necessarily based on good service.

 

In the US the amount people most commonly leave as a tip, is based mostly on a percentage of the total of their check than on service received.  For example, if someone purchases a $10 meal, a normal tip might be around $2 or $3 or if someone feels generous or gets exceptional service, maybe $5.  For a $100 meal, the tip is expected to be in the neighborhood of $20. What a server receives in tips depends much more on what customers order than the service they provide.

This is absolutely correct. Years ago in college, my husband was a server. Every evening he would cash out his tips and settle up with his behind the scenes colleagues per the restaurant guidelines. A set percent of his tips went to to hostess, busboy, and  chef. It’s an extremely common practice. 
 

in terms of this entire debate, it’s a fruitless effort in hand wringing. This type of pricing with crew gratuities is a historical norm in cruising. It’s part of the cruise line culture. If you find it so onerous, maybe choose other travel options. Ultimately this crew appreciation piece has evolved into what a hotel would class as a service or resort fee. They charge these fees and you can’t remove them. I think the cruise lines need to go the same route - either make a mandatory service fee or add it to the fare. And then those people who normally remove it and yell about the fact the cruise lines should pay their staff a proper wage can either be forced to pay up or vote with their feet and vacation elsewhere. 
 

 

Edited May 29 by karatemom2

[Ombud]

2 hours ago, coolbreeze!!!! said:

This really is no different than the restaurant industry since we do not know what our local restaurants are paying their waitstaff. I agree the feel good title "Employee Appreciation" is misleading to us but apparently well understood by the Princess employees. I treat the 18% gratuity as a cost of sailing and then provide cash tips to those going above and beyond what I expected.

Exactly. $25 an hour + health insurance +  PTO for "fast" food (McD, Panera, Chinese, Pizza, etc) but $16 minimum + health insurance + PTO at fine dining establishments (think linens, silverware etc). They can pay more but that's the minimum wage. So are the fine dining restaurants topping up to $25 hr + tips?? No way to know for sure

[Interestedcruisefan]

And comparing cruiseline bad practise to  restaurants in a US State that doesn't pay minimum wage isn't actually a great defence is it?

 

They do this so cruiselines can copy?

 

Two wrongs don't make a right?

 

And restaurants aren't doing it to the extreme Princess have taken it for sure

[JimmyVWine]

Just now, Interestedcruisefan said:

Are my tips to a server in a restaurant bringing up the wages of every single employee of the restaurant or just the person who served me who I want to help and tip?

Depends on the establishment.  The most common practice is to pool tips.  From that pool, a percentage goes to the dishwashers, to the bussers, to the host/hostess and to the servers.  But typically not the line cooks or chef.

 

Sounds a lot like what happens on a cruise ship, no?  Here are some concrete examples of what tipped restaurant workers earn in wage from the employer (first number) as compared to the state mandated minimum wage (second number):

 

Arkansas         $2.63   $11.00

Delaware         $2.23   $13.25

Idaho              $3.35   $7.25

Indiana           $2.13   $7.25

Kansas             $2.13   $7.25

Kentucky         $2.13  $7.25

Maine             $7.08   $14.15

Maryland        $3.63   $15.00

Mass               $6.75   $15.00

 

You get the picture.  Yes, there are American workers whose employer-based pay is just over $2 an hour.  And yes, you, the customer, are paying the rest of the amount to boost their pay up past the state minimum.  You aren't being deceived.  There is no fine print.  This is the way the service industry has operated for over century.  And yet all of a sudden, the cruise industry is scamming people.