SS Norway Needs Your Help NOW

[LuvBNatC]

Here's a link to the recent story in an Indian newspaper about the precarious and still-undetermined fate of the Norway:

 

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/theuae/2006/July/theuae_July194.xml&section=theuae

 

The article explains it in detail but, in a nutshell, Norway has been sold to an Indian scrap merchant and sits docked in India, awaiting the results of inspections and a report by Indian authorities on whether or not the poorly equipped shipbreakers at Alang can safely deal with removing the asbestos on board. If it gets the OK, the Norway will be beached and melted into the next generation of steel products. This could happen in a matter of weeks.

 

However, there's still hope. A U.S./Dubai group has offered to buy the ship from the scrapper to transform it into a hotel/museum in Dubai, something like the Queen Mary in Long Beach.

 

BUT this article revealed that when Star Cruises sold the ship, they stipulated it could NOT be resold for any commercial purpose. They want scrapping or nothing. I guess their thinking is, "If we have no use for the Norway, no one else will have her, either."

 

So, incredible as it seems, Star is actually BLOCKING the sale to Dubai that will prolong Norway's useful life.

 

I appeal to anyone who has any regard for this irreplaceable piece of maritime history. WE MUST LET STAR KNOW HOW WE FEEL. Letter-writing campaigns are already underway to show the Dubai investors there is support for the Norway venture.

 

I ask you to write to Jane Poh at Star Cruises (sjpoh@starcruises.com.my) and NCL president Colin Veitch (cveitch@ncl.com) and urge them to STEP ASIDE AND LET THE SALE TO DUBAI TAKE PLACE.

 

All you NCL cheerleaders out there, please put your considerable writing talents to work and help save the ship that put your beloved NCL on the map in the first place and paved the way for all the ships you love so much today.

 

WRITE TO STAR AND NCL TODAY. Thanks!

[LuvBNatC]

I just noticed that the link to the article I put in the original message got "abridged." I hope this one goes through in its entirety.

 

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/theuae/2006/July/theuae_July194.xml&section=theuae

 

Nope, this one got the same treatment, but I clicked it and it still seems to work.

[electricron]

BUT this article revealed that when Star Cruises sold the ship, they stipulated it could NOT be resold for any commercial purpose. They want scrapping or nothing. I guess their thinking is, "If we have no use for the Norway, no one else will have her, either."

 

Have you read the sale contract for the SS Norway? Did you even read the link your so kindly provided closely? This is how your link reads,

 

"The Khaleej Times understands a draft contract has been drawn up, but problems remain over a $2 million penalty clause Star holds over Bridgend if the ship is used for any other purpose other than scrap."

 

Golly, a "$2 million penalty clause" in the contract is far from "stipulating it could not be resold for any commercial purpose."

 

The sale price reportedly is around $20 million for the SS Norway, with the entire Dubai project price is reportedly $100 million. $2 million isn't that much of a penalty, just 10% of the cost for the ship, just 2% of the cost for the entire project.

 

If the $2 million penalty clause prevents the sale of the SS Norway, I question whether the Dubai project has sufficient financing to carry the project to fruition.

 

With the approximately $20 million sale of the SS Norway (Blue Lady or ex France), and the additional approximately $19 million insurance settlement, NCL is still losing money on her. This total only adds up to $39 million, far less than the $96 million it was worth on NCL's books prior to the boiler explosion. Even with the sale, NCL is losing over $50 million.

[LuvBNatC]

Hi, electricron. I really do appreciate your analysis of the Norway situation. It was very hard to convey all that's going on in a few words. The ship is currently in imminent danger of being beached at Alang, leaving no choice but to dismantle her (because getting her back out to sea would be virtually impossible). It was reported that the current owner has considered that option, which would break the law, because the shipbreaking industry in India is in dire need of the work and he's losing money every day.

 

This group in Dubai is willing to sink as much as $200 million into the project of turning Norway into a floating hotel. There have been negotiations, but apparently they keep hitting snags because of differences between Arabs and Indians.

 

I've been carefully following this drama in the press for months, but time is running out. The parties involved need to hear that there is public demand for the ship to be preserved, which is why I asked people to send e-mails of support to Star and NCL. (I think NCL is out of the picture at this point, but Colin Veitch needs to know about the fallout from the decision not to repair the ship.) It's not time to throw in the towel yet.

 

Anyone who's interested in finding out the latest can visit this site:

 

http://www.ssmaritime.com/newsupdates2.htm

 

It includes 2 NCL internal memos from 1997 concerning replacement of the boilers which are quite interesting.

[seahorse]

I do appreciate your concern and enthusiasm over this due to the fact that you sailed on her so many times:) ............but, Colin Vietch does know of everything that is going on. It is out of his hands and I think that he has moved on.

 

NCL and NCLA has a lot on their table as it is.:o

 

Good luck with your plans, but as you can see, not many are interested at this time.

[LuvBNatC]

The Norway was many people's first cruising experience and got them hooked. They've posted probably thousands of fond memories on this board. I was hoping to tap into that and find at least some who are willing to take a minute to give something back to the ship by lending their support to her new life in Dubai.

 

Sadly, I was mistaken. If her own passengers don't care, I fear we've lost our chance to save this incomparable classic liner from meeting her doom.

[smeyer418]

With the approximately $20 million sale of the SS Norway (Blue Lady or ex France), and the additional approximately $19 million insurance settlement, NCL is still losing money on her. This total only adds up to $39 million, far less than the $96 million it was worth on NCL's books prior to the boiler explosion. Even with the sale, NCL is losing over $50 million.

 

Book value is a useless amount for this purpose. NCL paid $18,000,000 for the ship and put another $100,000,000 into it. It then had the use of it for over 20 years. I agree that a 2 million dollar penalty in the scheme of things shouldn't be that much. But I wouldn't say NCL lossed over 50,000,000 in the scrapping...

[Writeratsea]

Book value is a useless amount for this purpose. NCL paid $18,000,000 for the ship and put another $100,000,000 into it. It then had the use of it for over 20 years. I agree that a 2 million dollar penalty in the scheme of things shouldn't be that much. But I wouldn't say NCL lossed over 50,000,000 in the scrapping...

NCL got $20 million for the ship against the original $18 million cost. Seems about right as it would probably take $100 million to refurbished the ship again to today standards. I think that over the last 20 years, NCL earned back the money it paid to initally redo the ship. Even without the boiler explosion, I think the ship would have been sold at some point rather than put more money into fixing it up again. Like everything in our society, it is cheaper to buy new, than to repair and fix the original. Whether the figure is $100 million or $200 million, the $2 million penalty clause was figured into the project cost as it was quite clear. I just doubt that the project itself is viable in the first place. In Boston, we have been waiting for over 20 years for someone to develop the pier area. These purported deals always have big numbers, but little or nonexistant results. Obviously, NCL for many reasons is simply moving on. The Norway obviously created many fond memories, but "business is business" is how the world works. Unless some committed group with solid financial assets steps up to the plate as happened with the Queen Mary in Long Beach, then the Norway's future is going to be just a memory. Sadly.

NCL Majesty Aug 2004

NCL Majesty Sept 2005

NCL Majesty Sept 2006

[Writeratsea]

Book value is a useless amount for this purpose. NCL paid $18,000,000 for the ship and put another $100,000,000 into it. It then had the use of it for over 20 years. I agree that a 2 million dollar penalty in the scheme of things shouldn't be that much. But I wouldn't say NCL lossed over 50,000,000 in the scrapping...

Smeyer, I just noticed you traveled in the hydrofoil between countries. The best trip I ever had on water was in 1980 when I took the Hydrofoil between Dover in England to Calais in France. Just an incredible experience, especially as I missed the normal seasick voyage of the regular ferry.

NCL Majesty Aug 2004

NCL Majesty Sept 2005

NCL Majesty Sept 2006

[smeyer418]

I actually have taken multiple hydrofoils between countries...France to Guernsey and Back and Finland to Tallinn Estonia and back...The trick even on a hydrofoil is to get as high and as far away from the back as possible...The trip across to Guernsey was a real bad trip. up and down wise......

[electricron]

The memos you referred to are between NCL employees suggesting alternative options on what to do with the SS Norway's propulsion machinery.

 

Let's review the options and their prices in late 1998.

 

#1) 4 new SS France boilers - $18 million.

#2) 4 new SS United States boilers and 4 new propellers - $26.8 million.

#3) Instal gas turbines into forward turbine room and 4 new propellers - $31 million.

#4) Install 5 diesel engines connected to water jets - $31 million.

#5) New boilers, electric propulsion motors and propellers - $50 million.

#6) Retube all 4 existing boilers and new propellers - $8 million.

Atternative 6 can be done partially during the European cruise of 1998, with a docking at the end of the season to install the new propellers; or the retubbing done during 1998 with the new propellers mounted during the 1999 drydock.

 

Looking at Lloydwerft's web site, the following was done to the SS Norway during drydocks in 1999 and 2001.

 

4|22 - 5|16|1999

Drydocking, repairs and maintenance work.

Engine works (turbine plant, boiler and propeller).

Refurnishing of the hotel area.

Complete paint work.

 

11|19 - 11|28|2001

Removal and refit of starboard and portside evaporator

Removal of stbd tailshaft and refit of spareshaft

Cleaning and painting of hull underwater vessel

Installation of 2 (stb/ps) new rescueboats

 

It appears NCL did option #6 mentioned in these memos.

Considering the ships was approaching the end of it's 40 year service life, taking the cheapest option isn't neglect. Considering NCL seriously considering taking the SS Norway out of service in 2001, I doubt they were willing to install completely brand new boilers, engines, and motors this late in the ship's life. Still, more expensive work was being done during the 2001 drydock.

 

By 1998, the SS Norway was not the largest and grandest cruise ship afloat. Carnival had introduced the Destiny class, at 101,000 tons and were building the 110,000 tons Conquest class. That was just what Carnival had done, Princess and Royal Caribbean were building larger ships too. And NCL had just received the Sky at 77,000 tons, one ton larger than the Norway, and had ordered the Sun, Star, and Dawn, all of which would be larger, tonnage wise, than the 40 year old Norway.

 

All ships eventually will reach the end of their service lifes, and we must accept this. There are those who still believe the Iowa class battleships should be restored into active service, although they are almost impossible today to keep them running on late 1930s technology. Most of the electronics on the battleships still use vacuum tubes. Have you seen a vacuum tube recently in nearby electronic stores? Although the US Navy will sell them to museums, even they don't give them away. The US Navy expects scrap iron value for its ships from the museums.

[smeyer418]

a couple of points...retubbing is a fairly normal thing that is done with steam boilers(in fact I know when boilers are installed you need to leave enough room to remove the tubes which has to be done periodically), the two or three Iowa class battleships were built in 1943 on wards. They had a total service of under 20 years as they were mothballed a number of times. The last time they were brought back(under Ronald Reagan) they cost almost one billion dollars(I belive) to bring back as they replaced all the electronics and put in cruise missiles and other modern electronics. If you have even been on the USS Massachusetts in Fall River, that ship is essentially brand new as it only served a total of 5 years. It is NOT an Iowa class battleship but from the class before that. The museum battle ships were stripped to provide the linings for the 16 inch barrels that were used in the three Iowa class ships that we brought out of mothball as indicated above. The Iowa, The Missouri and NJ- now all either museum ships or back in Mothball or decommissioned. Besides the Massachusetts there are other museum battle ships around the country.

[LuvBNatC]

That bugle you hear off in the distance is me playing "Taps" for the SS Norway. :-(

[electricron]

Book value is a useless amount for this purpose. NCL paid $18,000,000 for the ship and put another $100,000,000 into it. It then had the use of it for over 20 years. I agree that a 2 million dollar penalty in the scheme of things shouldn't be that much. But I wouldn't say NCL lossed over 50,000,000 in the scrapping...

 

NCL has spent more than $100 million updating and refurbishing the SS Norway. Let's review some of the costs associated with her refurbishment. I'll admit I can't find all the costs......

 

1979, NCL bought the SS France for $18 million.

1980, during a 10 month overhaul and refurbishment, NCL spent from as low as $80 million to as high as $100 million. Work at Lloydwerft included: Conversion of the former transatlantic liner "France" into the cruise ship "Norway". Installation of supplementary penthouse and de luxe suites, conversion and reorganisation of the complete interior accomodation, supplementary swimming pools. Equipping with two tender boats. Installation of a 40,000 H.P. engine plant.

1982, no costs data found. During this overhaul, Lloydwerft installed new electric generators.

1987, no costs data found. During this overhaul, Lloydwerft performed: Repairs and classification works, Renovation of passenger and de luxe suites, Conversion and renovation of public areas, like bars, restaurants, shops, Enlarging of the (board) theatre.

1990, NCL spent another $40 million. Lloydwerft performed: Repairs and classification works, Engine plant amelioration, Renovating of public areas, Added two new decks with 124 de luxe suites.

1993, NCL spent another $23 million. Most public rooms and passenger cabins being given new carpeting, decor and fabrics, and renovation of the 5,000 square foot casino to a mirrored, etched and stained glass Art Deco theme

1999, No costs data found. Lloydwerft performed: Drydocking, repairs and maintenance work, Engine works (turbine plant, boiler and propeller), Refurnishing of the hotel area, Complete paint work.

2001, No costs data found. Lloydwerft performed: Removal and refit of starboard and portside evaporator, Removal of stbd tailshaft and refit of spareshaft, Cleaning and painting of hull underwater vessel, Installation of 2 (stb/ps) new rescueboats.

 

Easily, NCL spent at least $180 million in upkeep and refurbishments on the SS Norway over 23 years. They probably spent another $50 million on the overhauls I couldn't find, or couldn't find the costs for.

Sources:

http://www.lloydwerft.com/e/auftraege/abgeschlossen/norway.htm

http://www.smallshipcruises.com/cruisereport/cruisereportssnorway.html

 

Owning a large cruise ship isn't cheap, and owning an older cruise ship less so.

[electricron]

The last time they were brought back(under Ronald Reagan) they cost almost one billion dollars(I belive) to bring back as they replaced all the electronics and put in cruise missiles and other modern electronics.

 

Really? Comments from an 1980 era Admiral:

* The 1980s commissionings went through the last barrel liners. Additionally, the Navy managed to screw up the remaining powder supplies by blending them into one common set--this destroyed accuracy.

* Maintenance or repair to the 1930s-vintage engineering plant was a nightmare, as the shipyard had to cut through a foot of Class A armored plate.

* The company that manufactured the emergency diesels back in 1941-42 has no record of ever having made diesel engines of any sort, and cannot supply drawings or other spare part documentation. Other subcontractors have long since gone out of business.

* The main battery is not usable in combat, as it is one dopey gunner's mate away from a turret conflagration.

* Training for the ship's systems is unavailable, particularly for the engineering plant and main battery. If you cannot safely steam and shoot, there is no point to having these warships in commission.

* I haven't seen so many vacuum tubes since my family's first television set during the 1950s.

 

Yes, some modern electronics were installed on th ebattleships during the 1980s, mostly to support the Tomahawk missiles. But little else was added. The wardroom was taken over by computers to guide these missiles, and little air conditioning was added because the existing generators aboard couldn't supply much more power, and these computers were always running hot. They are a logistics nightmare. We're down to two battleships in the reserve fleet mainly because the other two were stripped for parts before being sold to museums. It won't be long before the Navy will have to strip one that's left to support the other.

 

Meanwhile, there are no SS Norway sister ships around to strip to keep it operational.......

[SSNORWAY]

I think it is a shame that this important thread has deviated away from the original theme and ended up with a couple of people insulting each other over irrelevant fine details in their replies.

 

The important thing is that we are potentially about to lose a beautiful and historic liner, nothing like it will ever be built again. I am sure there are a huge amount of people that would not choose to cruise on this or any other ship of her age / condition, however I would be surprised if these same people would encourage it's demise when there are people who have the resourses and desire to save her.

 

When we visit museums we walk past hundreds of items that have no interest or relevance to ourselves, at the same time other people covet these items more than the things we get stimulation from, this would not be a good reason to dispose of the items that do not interest us and i'm sure no one would support such a scheme.

[smeyer418]

NCL gave a chance over a year for people to buy it for a museum or other purposes. As an example the Intrepid was bought from the Navy and hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers money have been paid toward her upkeep- in fact I think almost 200 million will be paid to redo the pier, scrape her bottom in dry dock and upgrade her. No one objects to you doing this, or France or any other country that wishes to. The scrap value of the Norway was what was paid. Anyone could have bought her for that. What I said on my first post is that I didn't think that the fact that NCL didn't get book value meant that they "lost" anything. You and everyone had the opportunity to buy her and do a museum. I probably would have contributed but to blame NCL just as the Navy has scrapped historic ships is unfair and unrealistic.

[GMoney]

I admire the passion of the OP, but considering that the SS United States sits rotting in Philly (I used to be able to see it from my condo window there), I'm guessing there's not much hope for the Norway.

[SSNORWAY]

I admire the passion of the OP, but considering that the SS United States sits rotting in Philly (I used to be able to see it from my condo window there), I'm guessing there's not much hope for the Norway.

I believe it has the same owners, keeping the SS United States rotting has served to provide certain favours for its owners though, it will be interesting to see what her final fate will be.

[mbisson]

This is not gonna be popular, but it's my opinion.

 

As much as I'd like to see the Norway remain a cruise ship (or even a float hotel), I don't believe it's economically feasible. Maybe some of her steel can come back in a new ship.

 

-Monte

[electricron]

I think it is a shame that this important thread has deviated away from the original theme and ended up with a couple of people insulting each other over irrelevant fine details in their replies.

 

The important thing is that we are potentially about to lose a beautiful and historic liner, nothing like it will ever be built again. I am sure there are a huge amount of people that would not choose to cruise on this or any other ship of her age / condition, however I would be surprised if these same people would encourage it's demise when there are people who have the resourses and desire to save her.

 

When we visit museums we walk past hundreds of items that have no interest or relevance to ourselves, at the same time other people covet these items more than the things we get stimulation from, this would not be a good reason to dispose of the items that do not interest us and i'm sure no one would support such a scheme.

 

I disagree with you comments about insults. I have never attacked anyone personally. I've only corrected "false" facts given to support their beliefs. Facts are facts, and feeling are feelings. Best of all, the truth is the truth. There is nothing "fine" about the truth. This is a discussion forum after all, we don't have to take others beliefs as our own.

 

As for museums, they don't get items for nothing. Some museums spend over $100 million for the privilege to display just one painting. The Navy doesn't give ships away, the army doesn't give tanks away, and the air force doesn't give jets away. The museum buys them, or they are bought by a wealthy benefactor and donated to the museum.

 

The facts remain that the SS France/Norway has been up for sale for almost two years. Museums and other private and public parties have had ample opportunity to contact NCL to show an interest. It's a shame few have shown interests. Lastly, the only organizations that have shown an interest and willing to pay NCL's price have been shipbreakers (scrapyards).

 

That hasn't been NCL's fault. Some are organizing a boycott of NCL. Why aren't they organizing a boycott of others who have failed to pay NCL's price?

[electricron]

I admire the passion of the OP, but considering that the SS United States sits rotting in Philly (I used to be able to see it from my condo window there), I'm guessing there's not much hope for the Norway.

 

The facts remain that the SS United States has been rotting away long before NCL bought her, since the late 1960s. When NCL bought her, they publically stated that they wouldn't do anything to her until after the fleet modernization projects were completed. As it stands today, the present shipbuilding program ends in late 2007, a year and a half from now. Even so, NCL will still have two older ships in their fleet, which have to be replaced soon. So, I expect two more new ships will be ordered soon, for completion either in 2010 or 2011. At that point when NCL orders two more new ships, we may hear what NCL's plans for the SS US are. But I wouldn't expect it any earlier, and we might have to wait until these new ships are compeleted before we do.

[mikeythemars]

Good luck with your plans, but as you can see, not many are interested at this time.

 

Oh, really? Earth to a certain travel agent: there's a world of deep cruise discussion (with thousands of posts related to saving this ship) outside this board...

 

http://cruise-chat.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/303601132/m/4251015521

 

:D :D

[electricron]

Oh, really? Earth to a certain travel agent: there's a world of deep cruise discussion (with thousands of posts related to saving this ship) outside this board...

http://cruise-chat.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/303601132/m/4251015521 :D :D

 

Yes, I'll admit that there are many who wish to save the SS France/Norway forever, if they could. But have they seriously considered how much it would cost?

 

For example, another older ship has cost the US taxpayers significant amount of money over the years. They're talking about permantely removing her out of the water now. Here's a link about the battleship USS Texas BB 35:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4032214.html

 

She's been in the hands of the State of Texas over 55 years now, and here's just a short roundup of the costs for perserving this ship over they years.

 

Excerpts:

The repairs to the ship's hull — 350,000 pounds of steel plating — while in dock between 1988 and 1990 cost $15 million. (Note:They only replaced 15% of the ship's hull at that time). That amount paid for only about half of the work needed. No major repairs have been done since, although officials recommend the ship should be dry docked every 10 years for repairs if it remains in the water.

Today, among other things, the ship is in need of structural repairs, steel plate replacement to the hull and blister tank, a new wooden deck and an electrical overhaul. The cost of the repairs is estimated at $25 million.

The proposed dry berth project alone will run about $20 million. The majority of the cost — $16.1 million — will come from federal grants. The remainder will be raised with the help of the Battleship Texas Foundation.

With the ship in a dry berth setting, visitors will see the ship's underside, including the hull, propellers, keels and rudders, as well as the extensive corrosion the water has caused.

The parks and wildlife department has $12.4 million in bond money approved by voters statewide in November 2001 to pay for the repairs. The Legislature, however, has to approve releasing the money.

 

So, even after buying the ship, and overhauling it, there's always more maintenance to be done as the ship rusts away over the years. And maintenance on these ships, even static ships on display, run into $millions per year.

 

I hope Texas comes up with the cash to get the maintenance done for this grand battleship, the last of the dreadnaughts from World War I. The last time I was aboard the USS Texas, they only had a few decks and spaces open to the public, and the ship that could be seen was rustier than a rust bucket. It made me sick to see her in such a drastic state. Imagine what the closed to the public spaces were. It would have been kinder to see her scrapped.

 

So my feelings about the SS France/Norway falls under the same ill feelings. I would rather remember her the way she was, than the way she is. If a measely $2 million penalty in NCL's sale contract prevents a sale to Dubai, I question whether the Dubai partners have a enough financing to do a proper job of maintaining the ship over the years.

 

Scrapping is much better than watching the ship rust away slowly. I can understand why some who love her would rather see her scrapped than in hands that wouldn't take care of her.

[smeyer418]

I disagree with you comments about insults. I have never attacked anyone personally. I've only corrected "false" facts given to support their beliefs. Facts are facts, and feeling are feelings. Best of all, the truth is the truth. There is nothing "fine" about the truth. This is a discussion forum after all, we don't have to take others beliefs as our own.

 

As for museums, they don't get items for nothing. Some museums spend over $100 million for the privilege to display just one painting. The Navy doesn't give ships away, the army doesn't give tanks away, and the air force doesn't give jets away. The museum buys them, or they are bought by a wealthy benefactor and donated to the museum.

 

The facts remain that the SS France/Norway has been up for sale for almost two years. Museums and other private and public parties have had ample opportunity to contact NCL to show an interest. It's a shame few have shown interests. Lastly, the only organizations that have shown an interest and willing to pay NCL's price have been shipbreakers (scrapyards).

 

That hasn't been NCL's fault. Some are organizing a boycott of NCL. Why aren't they organizing a boycott of others who have failed to pay NCL's price?

 

I never felt attacked and I didn't attack anyone. We just disagreed on some issues concerning cost accounting and some other issues. Electricon and I do this all the time in a friendly yet mostly informative way. Sometimes I even learn something and sometimes he does. We just disagree with the overall premise that NCL owes someone something over this. Buy it make it into a museum. I might even send a couple of Euros...