New Review

[bluesea777]

We are doing the NCL Sun from Dec 7 - 21st. Is this the time that school is out for South American families? Hoping it is later in Dec. like 12/21/08 or after. Can you advise. :)

 

7-21 Dec should be okay as it's off season.

 

21 Dec - 4 Jan is Xmas/New Year holiday for all kids.

 

Hope this helps :D

[GalvezCruiser]

I believe this thread is moving into dangerous waters with comments that voice unkind/prejudice-like sentiments.

[brazilgirl]

This thread is over a year old ...I have just begun to study up on the ports for our upcoming South America/Antartica cruise at the end of January. We are very excited about this fascinating itinerary.

 

When planning for our cruises , I generally read EVERYTHING written on the topic . A little overboard , I suppose , but the planning/studying is half the fun. That is how I came across this old thread.

 

I live in Brazil (I am American , but have lived here since 1989). My husband is Brazilian and our 3 children are dual nationals , but have lived here in Brazil all of their lives.

 

I´d like to offer a different perspective on this thread...I must admit , I found it a bit offensive , although I am sure that was not the intent.

 

Firstly , I am one of those South Americans who travels with the whole family in tow...in the last 2 years we have cruised the Baltics , the Med and the Caribbean with our 3 kids.That means international airfare , cruise fares and expenses times 5. every trip we take means at least 11 hours on the plane.

 

We do not live in a house with our extended family. We are the only ones who live in our home. How do we afford to travel? My husband is a hematologist , specializing in the oncologic area. He works very , very hard at a job which is incredibly taxing emotionally and physically. We love our family vacations , as they are precious way to spend some great quality time together , while offering some "adult time " too while the kids are at the kid´s club.

My best friend also loves to cruise-she is also a physician. Her husband is a physicist with a Ph.d who is a professor at the nearby university.This year she cruise to Turkey and Greece , next is Antartica (on a HAL holiday cruise over X-Mas and New Year).Her children will accompany her again.

These are some real backgrounds of the kinds of South Americans who you all may sail with.

As for the kids being awful and badly behaved , well..my children are certainly not perfect! But they are certainly not the little hellions described here.

 

South Americans do have a different way of life and behavior which may not be seen as acceptable in North America may be accepted here. People do speak more loudly , stay up later ...and children when on vacation often stay up later too (this is not my particular case , as I like to retire early-therefore my kids do too). Children many times dance together with their parents at the country clubs with live music on the weekends. Extended families go out to lunch together on Sundays and spend all afternoon talking and laughing while the kids of many families run around together.This is normal and not considered bad behavior-rather it is part of a way of life.

 

Families are very close knit and often make travel plans together , not because they all live in a community house , but because family is a priority and that includes in-laws , grandparents etc.

 

As for all of the luggage ...that is true! South Americans in general are very fashion conscious and also are huge consumers.Every time we visit the U.S , we go crazy , as do most South Americans. Things such as tennis shoes , make-up, toys and electronics are much , much cheaper abroad , so people take advantage of the great deals.

 

Maybe when sailing with South Americans , you could view it as a lesson in observing a different and unique culture , rather than making judgements. Sionce you will be visiting their continent , their culture is the predominant one and should be respected .Isn´t learning about other cultures what travel is all about? That is what I try to teach my kids.

 

As I said , I just wanted to offer another point of view.

Happy sailing!

Kim

[Dukefan]

Well said, Kim! Thank you for your comments! I almost didn't come back to this thread because of the "stuff" that was being said. Thanks to your comments, I'm glad that I did!

 

Gary

[biker1972]

Going to Ft Lauderdale during spring break is different from going there in January. Cruising from a SA port in late December is different from Mid January dates. Choosing a theme cruise when you are not a member of the group can be a less enjoyable experience. The great thing about Cruise Critic is that the imformation needed to make decisions is presented so that each of us can maximize our cruising experiences. As Kim rightly points out, when we travel outside our own confines, we have entered someone else's world with their culture and attitudes.

[brazilgirl]

Biker1972-

 

I totally agree with you about being able to choose what kind of experience you want to have. I myself never travel during holidays anywhere , as I don´t like crowds . I also prefer to sail on ships with fewer kids because I would rather my children have closer supervision and more personalized attention. It is good to have information in order to make informed choices.

 

Gary-

thanks for the feedback.

 

Kim

[Minoushka]

My first cruise to South America will be this coming Jan .Good for South Americans if they value thir elders and include them in their plans .I think if we go elsewhere we should TRY to be openminded and not judgeamental. Not everybody behaves like Americans ...there ar different standards ,,the key word is different..... not better or worse

Yes Xmas time on cruise ships is family time and yes some kids do get loud . KIDS RIGHT?????If you don't like noise or kids ...stay home ...go at another time when kids are in school.

NO it is not religiously oriented on a cruise ship ..SOOO do not expect it to be ..other then a Xmas tree here and there ..if you will miss your church service and the traditional stuff or stuff your family usually does ...you will probably not care for a Xmas cruise

Yes Holiday cruises are STUFFED to the gills and wall to wall passengers ...that is when companies make the most money and prices tend to rise ..with kids in school it is hard to go away any other time so some families choose this time Now you know

KIm good for you for defending your people

 

Michele

[greatam]

I absolutely love this thread. We have one person who lives in Brazil, three or four who have been on a Xmas cruise that was a disaster from a cultural perspective, two or three who are currently booked on a SA cruse and could possibly be looking for information, and one, who travels to SA at least 4 times per years, does business in SA year round and has a well rounded perspective of the culture viewed in an American/North American perspective.

 

For the American who lives in Brazil- while you may live in a single family home and associate with physicians and Ph.d’s, this is NOT the norm in SA. Single family households are also NOT the normal cruiser you find on the HEAVILY discounted cruises marketed to families in SA during the Xmas holiday. My two closest business associates work for an international fruit company out of the Santiago office. They are both executive level sales and yes, they BOTH live in houses with EXTENDED families in Santiago. One has not only Mom and Dad living in the same house, but an entire family of someone’s nephew (can’t really determine if it’s Grandpa/Grandma’s nephew or theirs-they just call him “Uncle Jose’)). It is truly the SA/Latin American way. A CULTURAL difference.

 

They would think NOTHING of taking grandma, grandpa, aunts, uncles, cousins, and many, many children on a cruise vacation. Family is the TOP priority. They also spend A LOT of money in the casino (I was with them on a Mare Australis cruise and was astounded how much money they spent gambling), spas, shopping and all the extras that a cruise line covets. They are true MONEY MAKERS for the cruise line. They don’t discipline their children as USA citizens do, which is a SHOCK to those from the USA. A business/social dinner at Astrid y Gaston in Santiago was TOTALLY destroyed by someone bringing their children and letting them run WILD with other children in the restaurant. The hosts of the dinner are STILL apologizing to this day (and the dinner was two years ago)

 

The SA mindset is not offensive UNTIL you factor in the North American mind set. VERY few American would live with Mom and Dad, aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, etc. UNLESS it was an emergency. Americans are NOT used to late dining, especially with children present, they are NOT used to loud children (seen but NOT heard-the American way), they are NOT used to entire areas of ships being taken over by extended families speaking a language they have very little knowledge of. Cultural differences-I agree.

 

I also agree that when you get on a cruise ship to a different part of the world than you are used to, you should adapt and adapt to the culture, especially if your ship is filled with people from a different country than you are from and you are in THEIR country.

 

Some of the Xmas cruises are a TOTAL shock to those from the USA, possibly other North Americans. I know I was truly shocked at how the parents reacted when the port workers in Valparaiso tried to keep the kids from getting around the cranes which are used to load CARGO SHIPS. The parents thought the kids had a RIGHT to be there and berated the port workers. Cultural differences!!!!

[brazilgirl]

Greatam and others-

 

I have lived in South America more than half my life. My best friend is from Argentina , my husband´s aunt lived in exile in Chile during Brazil´s dictatorship and still has very close ties to the country and the majority of my friends are not wealthy doctors. I think I can accurately say that I have a very good idea of what SA´s reality is , especially considering I got my university degree here and have traveled extensively .

 

Not a single one of my friends or aquaintances lives in a home with extended family. Obviously , as a South American resident , I know my financial situation is not the "norm"-I have friends from all walks of life after living here for over 20 years. The only exceptionwould be my cook (yes , most people here have help at home) who is a single mother and helps raise her grandkids. She certainly would not be on a cruise -sadly , even at "deeply discounted rates" , she wouldn´t be able to afford it. In the "favelas" (slum areas) this scenario is fairly common , but I can also guarentee you that the residents of the Brazilian slums would not probably not be on cruises either.

 

My friend from Argentina lost her father suddenly this year. Rather than have her mother come live with her , she purchased an apt for her , so she could have her privacy. My DH lost his father 6 years ago -his mother has her own apt.I am giving these examples ( and I could go on and on) to show the Brazilian and Argentinan cultures (which take up half of SA). I am not familiar with all the other countries way of life (Bolivia , Peru , Chile etc.)Perhaps these huge families are common there , but that is not the reality here among middle and upper middle class families , who are the South American cruisers in question.

 

However , as I said in my previous post , family is an absolute priority. As I mentioned , family lunches with aunts , uncles , cousins , brothers , sister , dogs , cats etc are a norm and family vacations with everybody are also common. People value these ties , and I , as an American , think these customs are wonderful. It is very sad to see the elderly abandoned by their families in the U.S. That is very rare here.

 

I´d like to discuss these deeply discounted rates mentioned here. I ALWAYS purchase my cruises from American agencies , as the agencies here do not offer OBC , price adjustments , upgrades , resident rates ...and the prices are much higher. I research prices extensively , as I am traveling with a family of 5 . The one difference is that the agencies here offer "plano de prestaçao" , which means you can divide the fare in up to 12 times ( a kind of layaway plan ). This is common when purchasing almost anything here in Brazil. The prices are usually so much better in the U.S that I end up booking many of my friends´cruises on American online agencies.

 

I totally agree that everyone has the right to choose what kind of cruise the want. As I said before , I myself avoid holiday cruises (spring break in the Caribbean doesn´t sound like my cup of tea either).

 

The North American midset- I find it curious that this thread seems to represent American children as very well behaved ("seen and not heard" /well-disciplined). Sadly , lack of manners seems to be rather universal these days . I have read many threads on problems with kids on ships on the other forums. I am not disputing that the 400 kids on the SA holiday cruise were unruly-just stating that this seems to be a complaint on many forums. As for SA citizens not disciplining there children , well...can you imagine a nation of undisciplined children...maybe they´d take weapons to school and open fire on their classmates (oopps , wrong country-that happened in the city where I grew up in-Stockton , California-Patrick Purdy killed 5 children and a teacher while they were playing outside at recess).

 

"They are NOT used to entire ships being taken over by extended families they have very little knowledge of " ...Last time I checked , speaking your native language on vacation with your loved ones does not qualify as "offensive" . I personally love traveling and am delighted to hear the cadences of other languages around me. If I am in SA ,what is more natural than hearing Spanish or Portuguese? The crew/staff of the ship speaks English...and as far as I know , most ships have foreign domain and an international crew , so...

 

I am going on and on here!!! I would just like to conclude by saying that many of the GENERALIZATIONS (I will use capital letters too) struck me as inaccurate and stereotypical. As a long time resident of SA , I have the opportunity to clear up what I see as common and sometimes hurtful misconceptions. I do the same when my Brazilian friends say unfair or unkind things about the U.S , my other country (which I am very proud of ). I can make the same assertion as our previous o.p (Greatam) that I have a "well-rounded perspective " of North American and South American culture. All my family still lives in the U.S , so we my ties there are very strong.

 

Some food for thought:

 

" When you travel , remember that a foreign country is not designed to make you comfortable. It is designed to make its own people comfortable"- Clifton Fadiman

 

Tchau!

Kim

 

I would just like to make it known that I have the greatest respect for other people´s opinions and debate this subject in good spirits!

[Dukefan]

This thread reminds me of when I was traveling throughout Africa on business in the mid 80's. On one trip I had been away from the US for about thirty days and was in the Cote d'Ivoie. I was staying at the Intercontinental Hotel in Abidjan and at dinner one evening I heard what I thought were Americans talking at the next table. Since I had been having a tough time during the past week with my very poor French, I decided that it might be fun to buy them a drink and talk with them (in English) for a while. As I approached their table I heard one of them say to the other "These dumb people here don't even speak English". Needless to say, I kept right on walking since we were in a French speaking country where almost everyone's native language was their tribe's language and French was their second language. Why would this American be so upset because they didn't speak English? He was visiting their country.

 

A lot of us have experiences with International groups of people whether it is attending the olympics, an international business meeting or yes, a cruise. Unless we are interested in being the "ugly American", the "ugly Englishmen", the "ugly Frenchmen", or the "ugly whatever", we need to appreciate the situation we are in and accept other peoples cultures differences or priorities. I have always been surprised by what I have been able to learn from other cultures.

 

Also, I strongly wish the US was more family oriented. We all think we are, of course, until we really compare how much time parents 50 years ago spent with their children and how little time so many people spend with their children today. I personally applaud any culture that makes spending time with their families a priority.

 

That said, all parents should be expected to manage their children in a manner that does not ruin another person's experience. As the saying goes "everyone getting along is very, very easy ... as long as we all work very, very hard at it".

 

Gary

[Minoushka]

I find this thread particularly interesting as to how certain people on it consider themselves "Experts" on a given subject .I spent 9 complete summers in SpainJuly to September and still would never consider myself an expert on Spain or its culture or customs .Yes because I spoke the language and met and hung out with people I got a certain perspective ...expert /...NO I do not think so..... Four to six visits a year anywhere I do not consider enough time to claim one's expertise ...better insight or particular experience yes on certain aspects of life in a given country once again yes as a TOURIST albeit a working one with a week here and there will expose you to certain elements of culture but surely not all.....

That being said generalities applying to any given group do fringe on sterotyping and those sometimes almost flirt wih some form of xenophobia .We have to be careful in our generalized statements about anything .Nothing is truly black or white usually a myriad of shades of grey .

I think we should stop now because this thread is headed in the wrong direction

[brazilgirl]

I suppose I should just leave this alone , but it has been niggling at my brain all day. I am one of those people who likes to have "closure" . A quirk ,I suppose!

 

I revived this old thread because I believe it contained inaccuracies about the continent I live on. Since this is the South American forum , I think a clear picture of South America is beneficial and interesting to all.

 

Sadly , I frequently run into stereotypes and I guess it has become something of a mission to promote an "understanding" between my 2 countries/continents,

 

I think it would be nice to present some concrete facts . Firstly , South America is a huge , extremely diverse continent-12 countries , 4 languages ( not including dialects/indigenous languages etc). There are approx. 385,000,000 people living in SA. My adopted country , Brazil , has over half of the population of the entire continent-188,000,000.

 

It is absolutely impossible to make statements about what is the "norm" in South America. Each country is unique , with stark contrasts in levels of income , education , lifestyles , religion. Let´s take a closer look at what I am saying-

 

Uruguay-small (3.5 million) , population formed by Spanish and Italian descendants , high literacy rate , high level of urbanization.

 

Bolivia (9.4 million people) , one of the continent´s poorest countries , population composed of indigenous communities , quality of life indicators low ( mortality/ literacy etc)

 

Brazil-(188 million people) colonized by the Portuguese , population consists of hugely diverse racial mix (Black, Portuguese and Indian being the main ones)-large colonies of Germans , Italians , Japanese (largest Japanese population outside of Japan). Stark inequality in distribution of wealth ....

 

I am sure you all get the point... a fascinating land of contrasts.

 

I found a very nice article (short/concise/factual) which pretty much reiterates the picture I painted in my previous post of the Brazilian family. It is easy to read , if you are interested http://family.jrank.org/pages/178/Brazil-Aspects-Contempory-Family.html

 

Since I was painted as being a person who only associated with doctors and Ph.ds (LOL) ,without an real idea of what is "truly the SA/Latin American way" , I thought the article might show that I actually do have a little bit of an awareness of what goes on around me in my country.

 

I also found a nice summary about Chilean social institutions ( although I never professed to have any knowledge of its culture other than visits/comments by Aunt who lived there for 7 years)..

 

"Chileans are highly positive in their assessments of the family as a social institution and manifest a strong family orientation .Two parent nuclear families are the most prevalent family structure , though there has been an increase in single parent families and a decrease in extended families since the 1990s...." (Jeffery Jensen Arnett)

 

 

I don´t want to get in a tiff with anyone . Please read my 1st post on this thread..I think I was balanced and respectful . I know the poster Greatam is a well-respected , well liked , helpful member of CC. However , I felt (emphasis on felt) that her post in response to my post was a bit condescending and suggested that I really didn´t know what I was talking about....I hope my impression was wrong -maybe my reading comprehension skills aren´t as sharp as they used to be!

 

Anyway , had to get that off my chest!

 

I am new here to the SA boards -spent all my previous time and energy on the Baltic and Med boards planning my previous trips. I would be happy and honored to give advice or suggestions about travel in Brazil. It is such a big country that I won´t be able to help with everything , but I will try my best!

 

Thanks for listening and I hope I offered a little learning moment for all (I was a teacher for 15 years...)

 

Kim

 

P. S I totally agree that parents should be expected to manage their children in order not to infringe on other´s enjoyment..I try hard to follow that with my kids.

[brazilgirl]

For some reason the link to the article came out wrong-will try again.

 

Still not going directly there-clink on link and write Brazil in the search box -article is called "Brazil-Aspects of the Contempory Family."

 

http://family.jrank.org/pages/178/Brazil-Aspects-Contempory-Family.html

kim

[dougjpv]

Very well put! Many of my fellow North Americans are oblivious to any other culture.

[marazul]

brazilgirl,

 

Very well said. I find that many of the pejorative views Americans have of all of us who were born or live South of the Rio Grande have to do with the insane idea Congress had in the 80's of calling all of us Hispanics. As you said, we represent 29 nations and every race in the rainbow; different backgrounds and cultures. (Yes, I know Brazilians are not Hispanics according to the "definition," however, as fellow Latin Americans, they are tarred by the same prejudices.) A "hispanic" is a fictional creature of the US Congress and does not represent the reality or diversity of Latin America.

 

It is very easy to concentrate fears and prejudices in an amorphous "other" labeled by a political term. That leads to comments that imply such things as "how dare Hispanics speak Spanish in their own country." While we savor the "ensalada mixta," many resent those who do not conform to their own view of how "Hispanics" should look like or how they should learn to behave like "Americans." It's all very well to praise the "melting pot" so long as no Spanish is spoken.

 

I feel labels are destructive and serve to polarize people. Cruise Critic boards go a long way towards enhancing comprehension of other cultures. Comments such as yours and mine might not be what is expected, but they contribute another point of view that is rarely advanced. Better informed people make better travelers.

 

If offense was given, it was not intended. If it causes more people to learn and relate to their hosts while in South America, it was intended. As brazilgirl, I also had to get that off my chest.

 

Marazul

[Minoushka]

To KIm and Marazul

 

Well put !!! I totally agree with you and many of your comments

Good for you for defending your people and country

 

Michele

 

Ps .I really look forward to my glimpse of it and hope people will be content I, as a FRENCH speaking native will willingly and with immense pleasure practice my Spanish with all the South Americans I hope to meet in Chile and Argentina .

 

Hasta Luego

 

Michele

[marazul]

Et, sans doute, vous serez bienvenue.

[Len3]

We're going in January, 2010, and certainly hope that the kids are back in school.

[brazilgirl]

Len3-

 

Sorry to inform you , but January is our school summer vacation (almost all of December and January). However , the big crowds will most likely be on the holiday sailings. People are gearing down on the 17th. Keep the Infinity tidy , as we will be sailing right after you , on the 31st!!

 

Michelle -

I hope you have a lovely time in SA. I´d love to visit Montreal!

 

Marazul-

 

I really liked your post and your "screen name" is perfect.

 

Kim

[marazul]

Moito obrigada.

[Minoushka]

To Kim and Marazul

 

You would love Montreal .It is a beautiful,clean fun loving city .WE have many many cultures here and people dress pretty much the way they want and no comments or remarks ever heard .Yes we are mainly French -speaking but our city is VERY cosmopolitan and we have the best food ever...very international ..and not expensive to boot

Montreal is wonderful in the summer months with all our FREE festivals .Jazz festival,Comedy Festival .Fireworks,Grand Prix .Nascar Film and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few /Montreal is safe ..yes you CAN wear a purse and jewellery here without problem ....I certainly do !!!

Montreal welcomes all visitors

 

Michele

[Manny's mom]

I have worked with children in schools for over 30 years, and the only consistent is that ill mannered, ill behaved, disrespectful kids are just that. Parents in any culture should be responsible for their children!