ANOTHER Gratuity thread!!!!

[cruisegal101]

Agreed, very few other businesses / industries could get away with pricing this way.

 

What if cruise lines were to include gratuities and the fuel surcharge (both fuel and labour being of high importance in operating a cruise) in the quoted fares? Would the new fare be proportionately higher, or would there be even more padding now that the costs were moved further down the chain? And how many (mainly new) customers would the cruise industry lose to land-based holidays?

 

One thing to remember with adding tips, fuel surcharges, etc into the fares--the fare is commissionable and the net amount for tips, surcharges, etc would be lessened by the amount of the commission.

[Shirley and Les]

Post Deleted by 'Shirley and Les'

[YOW]

I don't like how it's expected that we pay their salaries basically.

 

Not that I'm defending the current system, per se, but do we as customers not pay the salaries one way or another? Just as it is said that companies don't pay taxes, people do; the costs are always passed along.

 

One thing to remember with adding tips, fuel surcharges, etc into the fares--the fare is commissionable and the net amount for tips, surcharges, etc would be lessened by the amount of the commission.

 

Definitely, that's where I was going -- $75 tip, for example, would probably end up over $100 if incorporated into the base fare, taking into account commissions, taxes, etc.

[woodofpine]

It's got little if anything to do with 'Service' or who should get what out of convenience and fairness.

 

It has everything to do with accounting, leverage, profitability, and consequent product cost. The poster that pointed out that lower fares mean lower TA commissions was pointed in the right direction. There are a world of other costs that go up by inflating payroll.

 

Keeping a big portion of staff compensation 'off the books' from a direct expense standpoint, means that actual $income$ (ratios) are relatively higher than the same amount of money would be with inflated payroll expense. Therefore the line has a higher 'profit margin'. This translates into higher Moodys/S&P ratings, reduced credit costs (borrowing to build ships, buy fuel oil, etc.) greater borrowing and investment savings and investor worth. This is good for shareholders and consequently good for consumers in that is reduces some very significant elements of operating overhead (debt service).

 

Also with these staffers as 'independent contractors' rather than salaried employers some collateral employer obligations are reduced; again, this results in both higher profits and the ability to be make fares cheaper.

 

That's why luxe lines with 'no gratuities' that charge 2X aren't twice as 'profitable'. The increased/inflated internal payroll on the books impairs their 'profitability', hence, other costs increase (and greater income is required to reach the same 'profit margins') hence individual fares on luxe lines are higher by a bigger factor than the mere inclusion of your slice of a steward and server's salary... with a tablespoon of caviar thrown in.

 

The tipping 'system' is an integral part of a particular business model; it impacts 'the entire bottom line' and can not be readily changed without a significant product cost delivery overhaul that significantly changes fares, attendant product marketability, the whole shebang.

 

As cruisers we can pontificate about the 'shoulds' or 'ought to's of how our cruise line of choice runs its business, but our pelaver is irrelevant. It is the business model in place (that we've selected to patronize). Having made the selection, the only thing is to factor in the cost of gratuities and pay our servers.

[bububr]

"Having made the selection, the only thing is to factor in the cost of gratuities and pay our servers."

 

How would most of you treat a server in a land based restaurant if the food was good but the service was poor. We had an experience once where our waitress kept going to the serving station and talking on her cellphone...we could see our food was ready. We gave her a minute, then she walked away and came back 5 minutes later with 'warm' food. She wasn't paying attention, Personally I thought it was busy that night ....but should she have been talking on her phone while I'm paying for a meal and then serving it a a lesser standard? She got a handful of change for a tip...then proceeded to follow us out and flame us...our response, get off your ******** cell phone, do your job and maybe next time you'll get a tip. The dinner bill btw was over $150.00 for the 2 of us.

Should we have condoned bad behavior?

 

THese people on ships know ahead of time that part of their salaries are based on tips, If they don't care about doing thier jobs it their own fault.

 

Dave:eek:

[woodofpine]

"Having made the selection, the only thing is to factor in the cost of gratuities and pay our servers."

 

How would most of you treat a server in a land based restaurant if the food was good but the service was poor. We had an experience once where our waitress kept going to the serving station and talking on her cellphone...we could see our food was ready. We gave her a minute, then she walked away and came back 5 minutes later with 'warm' food. She wasn't paying attention, Personally I thought it was busy that night ....but should she have been talking on her phone while I'm paying for a meal and then serving it a a lesser standard? She got a handful of change for a tip...then proceeded to follow us out and flame us...our response, get off your ******** cell phone, do your job and maybe next time you'll get a tip. The dinner bill btw was over $150.00 for the 2 of us.

Should we have condoned bad behavior?

 

THese people on ships know ahead of time that part of their salaries are based on tips, If they don't care about doing thier jobs it their own fault.

 

Dave:eek:

 

 

So - the experience you related, was that a Celebrity specialty restaurant? :D No, that's right, you said it was land based... Should you have tipped more? Maybe not, although on a $150 tab in the states leaving a $5er would have sent a loud message. Should she have 'flamed you'? Doesn't sound like she ought to be waiting tables at all...

 

Are we comparing apples and oranges? Yes. Your story is pretty much irrelevant to the overall cruise ship factual setting, as well as the cruise ship experience.

 

Your comments though lead into the 'culture' of tipping generally, which causes conflict with posters from regions (UK and elsewhere) where tipping is the exception not the "rule" (using the term loosely).

 

Do I lament that in the USA generally medicore service is now expected to be tipped at 18% when mediocre Anerucan style service maybe garnered 10% in my childhood? Sure - its redicules. So what? How does that relate to cruise ships where the expected tip for dining and hotel service is less than 10% of fare? And the service is generally superior to shoreside...

 

OK a first time cruiser may be ignorant of the tipping system on ships. But experienced cruisers that 'nickle and dime' crew yet repeatedly return in satisfaction when they know what is expected (and its far less than USA shoreside comparables) well... we all know what that is...

 

As an aside: I was at the Alpenhof at Teton Village WY a couple weeks ago. Stayed in the Arlberg suite with my kids. Three rooms/2 bdrm-2bth. By the wet bar they had an imprinted card with a 'suggested' gratuity for house keeping $1 pp per night (typically a 5-6 person unit). That was the first time I'd seen that expressly laid out by a hotel. It was a nice place - slopeside. It was very cheap compared to the 4 Seasons next door, but hardly inexpensive at $400 per night (not incl. tax).

 

So how should one tip in that instance? Or, with the signature needed sign off for a rate included breakfast which included a line for gratuity?

 

Dave?

[MMDown Under]

I enjoyed your detailed explanation - thanks.

 

If staffers are independent contractors, does that mean they are not covered by workers compensation, in case of accident at work?

[woodofpine]

Workers comp is a state to state based system that doesn't apply to crewman at sea. There are contractual insurance arrangments that the lines extend to crewman for injury etc. and there is some national/international law that governs these matters, but the caveat is 'some'. The financial obligations of the lines is considerably lower than it would be ashore in the US/UK Commonwealth/EU countries.

 

There is a world of land based employer payroll overhead that is avoided by cruiselines operating ships in international waters. Same as taxes, hence the registration of ships in places they aren't otherwise associated (Liberia, Panama, Bahamas). And by administering 30%-50% of their staff compensation 'off the books' from a payroll standpoint the lines greatly improve there mathmatical profit margins and hence acquire working capital less expensively. So there's more profit:cost ramifications than just the simple arithmatic of adding a reasonable salary to the balance sheet; it dilutes financial performance unless income is increased.

 

I too at times would prefer to see the lines increase fares modestly and change the sytem - but it is a complex business model that isn't so easily tinkered with.

 

One of the downsides of cruising's popularity (I suspect) is that the crew population has soared and a lot of crew are new and not really cut out for the life. In that instance, everyone suffers... Performance lags, tips lag accordingly and so on.

[MMDown Under]

We had superb levels of service, at all our levels, on our repositioning cruise from the US Market to the Pacific/Asia market. However, I did hear comment from others at the inexperience of the service staff.

 

Seems a lot of the regular staff, who had been based at Galveston, with a 7 day cruise schedule, chose not to reposition to Asia/Pacific, with the ship, hence a lot of new staff.

 

Our Chinese assistant waiter even got so sea sick she had to have a needle and time off, but you would never know it, when she was working.

 

We were on an inaugural charter of happy Aussies, but I could see it could cause problems to other more experienced cruisers.

 

The trouble with cruising, you are buying a dream from a cruise industry brochure. It is not like buying a dress, which you try on and if it doesn't fit you don't buy it. With a cruise, by the time you discover it doesn't fit, it is too late!

 

BTW I love the multi national staff on cruise ships. If only the cruise industry valued this precious asset. I did see a photo of the "staff member of the month", which I thought was a great idea.

[DMRick]

I might have missed this..but should we be tipping in pounds or US dollars? Will Celebrity cash a check for us for US $ for the tip money? Are envelopes provided? On a night we go to specialty restaurants, and tip there (and what percent do we tip there?), do we still add that nightly tip into our waiter (in the main dining), assis waiters, matre d, envelopes? I'm assuming yes, since they might also be serving us lunch and breakfast. It's been awhile sine we've done our own 'main' tips.

Thanks for the answers.

[TravelerThom]

I might have missed this..but should we be tipping in pounds or US dollars? Will Celebrity cash a check for us for US $ for the tip money? Are envelopes provided? On a night we go to specialty restaurants, and tip there (and what percent do we tip there?), do we still add that nightly tip into our waiter (in the main dining), assis waiters, matre d, envelopes? I'm assuming yes, since they might also be serving us lunch and breakfast. It's been awhile sine we've done our own 'main' tips.

Thanks for the answers.

Generally one tips in the currency that is used on the ship. I think =X= always uses US$ as ship's currency, even when sailing non-US areas. You can tip the suggested amounts [or more (but not less)] charged to your SeaPass, and your final billing will be converted by your credit card company into whatever your currency is. Note that you must put in a request several days prior to the end of the cruise if you wish tips to be added to your account, but forms to do so will automatically end up in your room. If you add tips to SeaPass you will get vouchers so that you have something to hand to the staff [but they should get that money even without receiving the voucher]. Or you can tip directly in cash with envelopes provided. Personally I put the suggested tip amounts on my SeaPass, and then if there are individuals I wish to tip more because of outstanding service, I do that in cash. I generally figure that this supplemental cash can be in any currency that they can use [depending on where they are going to be sailing] and I use this as one way of getting rid of excess foreign currency. I certainly agree that the waiters etc are serving guests a lot more than dinner [maybe I don't have my guys for breakfast and lunch, but I sure have somebody, and I HOPE that their dinner guests are tipping them], so I tip for everyday even if I miss an occassion main dining room dinner [and I let the waiter as well as my companions know if I have dinner reservations elsewhere so they don't wait for me].

 

I see that you also have an upcoming NCL cruise; they automatically add basic tips to your bill, as do all the many Carnival lines. =X=/RCI is the only major cruise company to not automatically add tips.

 

Enjoy your cruises

[DMRick]

Thank you. Yes, NCL auto adds it..and I wish it was just part of our cruise costs, so my trip was totally paid in advance (except for the extra special tips) but I've been told the workers would get less money, after commisions and tax. So, that said, the next best thing for me, it to tip in cash at the end of the night (I hate coming home to leftover bills from a vacation). I just wasn't sure in which currency. Love the idea of using our extra foreign currency for extra tips. That will most likely go to our cabin person.

 

Thank you for the answers, it's much appreciated.

 

Generally one tips in the currency that is used on the ship. I think =X= always uses US$ as ship's currency, even when sailing non-US areas. You can tip the suggested amounts [or more (but not less)] charged to your SeaPass, and your final billing will be converted by your credit card company into whatever your currency is. Note that you must put in a request several days prior to the end of the cruise if you wish tips to be added to your account, but forms to do so will automatically end up in your room. If you add tips to SeaPass you will get vouchers so that you have something to hand to the staff [but they should get that money even without receiving the voucher]. Or you can tip directly in cash with envelopes provided. Personally I put the suggested tip amounts on my SeaPass, and then if there are individuals I wish to tip more because of outstanding service, I do that in cash. I generally figure that this supplemental cash can be in any currency that they can use [depending on where they are going to be sailing] and I use this as one way of getting rid of excess foreign currency. I certainly agree that the waiters etc are serving guests a lot more than dinner [maybe I don't have my guys for breakfast and lunch, but I sure have somebody, and I HOPE that their dinner guests are tipping them], so I tip for everyday even if I miss an occassion main dining room dinner [and I let the waiter as well as my companions know if I have dinner reservations elsewhere so they don't wait for me].

 

I see that you also have an upcoming NCL cruise; they automatically add basic tips to your bill, as do all the many Carnival lines. =X=/RCI is the only major cruise company to not automatically add tips.

 

Enjoy your cruises

[Napi's Mom]

On any other cruise we've been on the tips for drinks etc. are added to your onboard account, cash isn't used onboard (except by folks "under the table" wishing to get special treatment I suppose). If you eat at the specialty restaurant are you expected to tip in CASH??? This is really something I've never heard of!:confused:

[SusieV]

On any other cruise we've been on the tips for drinks etc. are added to your onboard account' date=' cash isn't used onboard (except by folks "under the table" wishing to get special treatment I suppose). If you eat at the specialty restaurant are you expected to tip in CASH??? This is really something I've never heard of!:confused:[/quote']

 

No, there's a line on the slip to add more gratuity. Cash is not needed.

[Ms. J.]

I've read all these posts with great interest. Woodopine gave a fantastic descrption. One thing, Azamara (X's spin-off) does add daily gratuity to your ob account to be shared among workers. Many other cruise lines I've been on do the same. I always give extra to all the people who serve me well - including bartenders. The one point I'd like to make about the gratuity being added to your ob account, is that maybe the cruise lines do this because some people never tip anyone? Jini

[BrendaStarr]

Beeing european, I find these threads so interesting, because europeans and australians seem to find paying tips and gratuities to be really strange and americans and canadians usually think it's a must in order to recieve good service.

Of course i've got a bias view, being european, but has anyone "over there" ever thought about getting paid for a job well done and a sense of pride in being good at one's job?

And THAT is how europeans and australians look upon tips - there's a basic service everyone is supposed to recieve and then there's some, and that's what's earning the tips.

So - give all staff onboard decent pay, and those willing to provide the extras recieve the tips!

[BrendaStarr]

what I mean is if someone does what is expected out of their job-description, they should recieve proper wages. In Sweden proper salaries are around $12/hour for a waiter/waitress and they recieve extra for after-hours and sat-sundays. A full time salary is about $2900 for a waitress in Sweden - after taxes, and that's for unexperienced personnel. If one is willing to provide extra service, as in asking an extra time how people are doing at the table,just fetching "those special things", they get tipped. But for doing their job- i.e. serving foods and beverages - they'll always get paid.

Bu then again -working with services as waiting tables is rarely something you do "for real " in western europe - it is something you do during college or if you're over thirty - if you've got a spouse who's the breadwinner... College-students in europe very often pay their studies with student-loans and grants, and any extra-money is nice, but not expected...

[MMDown Under]

I enjoyed your insight.

 

Having travelled regularly in USA/Canada, I understand how many Americans/Canadians feel strongly about tipping and am aware that some of my least wealthy friends are the most generous of tippers.

 

However, I often wonder, if they understand how people, who don't have a custom of tipping feel when they tip. When I give someone a gift, I get as much pleasure as the receiver, however, when I tip, I feel uncomfortable.

 

I don't understand why, but maybe it is because I'm an Australian, who feels everyone is of equal status.

[YOW]

Having lived in North America most of my life, even I still find the whole tipping scene a bit awkward. In that split second, we're supposed to decide if the waiter asking how everything was or the waitress refilling water warrants rounding up, etc. OTOH I've lived in Tokyo, a non-tipping place, and received generally indifferent service. And travels in tipping, semi-tipping, not-so-tipping, and no-tipping countries have yielded a mixed bag of data that don't really correlate much.

 

BrendaStarr, I will say that we had experiences in Stockholm, dining and drinking out with Swedish friends, where service fell below an acceptable level, and we had no recourse -- any complaints, no matter how polite, were just met with this look (maybe you know the look, since my friends there said it was common... it's a kind of passive-aggressive gaze that seems to relay a sentiment of 'why are you telling me this?'). But at least I could appreciate going to an establishment, seeing the (albeit exorbitant) prices, and knowing I wasn't going to be hit up with an additional 30% in taxes and tips. Easier to budget the beers that way. ;)