SS France / SS Norway Heads For Graveyard

Very sad news indeed. I never saw her as Norway, but in the sixties in Southampton she looked mighty fine when passing Hythe Pier (I was young!).

Lets hope that, in a few years (how many?) we aren't reading CC with similar news about QE2.

Pepper.

The France must be the finest looking ship ever built. Seeing her sitting in the Caribbean was just fantastic. You realy appeciate her lines when you see her sitting beside all the modern boxes. You had the "advantage" of having to tender everywhere so you got some great views of the ship. When you see her at anchor, she looks like she is doing 20 knots.

Her future looks bleak. The issues with the asbestos on board means that there is little chance of her getting broken up.

This means that she will either rot away or mysteriously catch fire or just sink. In any case the interiors will be lost. She may not have had the finest of interiors but she did have an air of style missing on more modern ships.

She is the last of the traditional pure express liners. It will be a real shame when she is gone.

Well, I would say that "sinking" would be better than being cut up on the beach (I still get depressed if I come across pictures of the end of Canberra). She's not quite the last of the pure express liners, but with just the rusting hulk of the United States remaining, and the un-restored Queen Mary, I know what you mean. She is amongst the last links with a golden age of trans-atlantic liners. She looked great as France, if a little narrow at the stern when seen from above, and what was that tiny courtyard about on the top deck? (can't say the same after the re-build as Norway, plain ugly, just my opinion, but I fully understand her place in cruising history).

What I've NEVER understood, and have never had explained to me, is what the french thought they were doing in 1962? Surely the writing was on the wall and was obvious to all? I understand she was planned in the mid 50's (and that Cunard came close to building their own mistake (Q3)) but, given the falling (that's an understatement!) pax numbers in the late 50's TA, did they think they could buck the trend? I've read that she sailed 80% full on the early crossings. But 12 years life with never a profit?. She needed a running mate if she wasn't going to cruise. Her interiors were roundly critised when new, but if they had servived, would be loved now. Stunning looking as she was, she was the wrong ship at the wrong time. I can't agree that she was the finest looking liner ever built, that title belongs to Normandie, inside and out.

But it will be a shame when she is gone, up until recant times, the longest liner ever built. As I said, a very sad day.

Pepper.

Many old timers who sailed on both the NORMANDIE and the FRANCE (while they belonged to the French Line) say that the NORMANDIE was unsurpassed in the level of service.

The first class restaurant on the NORMANDIE was according to experts the finest restaurant in the world. Some passengers did not even bother to consult the "carte" (bill of fare/menu) but just ordered whatever they fancied and somehow the chefs could prepare any dish whatsoever as long as it was catalogued in the Larousse Gastronomique.

I suppose the accommodations on the FRANCE were more modern -- but the tales of sailing on the NORMANDIE are worth hearing. I heard a lecture by an old timer a few years ago on NCL -- if half of what he related was accurate, it was indeed some ship.

There is a restaurant in Montreal (now closed) whose decor was modelled on the dining room of the NORMANDIE. It is now an historic site and cannot be altered (and it's not even the original, only a copy!!!)

Pitty the FRANCE could now has found another vocation a la the Queen Mary. She will be sorely missed. One thing the French know how to do is to build luxury liners.

The end of any beloved ship is always sad. My wife and I made our first transatlantic crossing from New York to Southampton on the S.S. France in 1973. To keep this posting relevant to the Cunard site, we made our return a couple of weeks later on the Queen Elizabeth 2.

A few years ago, the ship (as Norway) made a transatlantic crossing from Halifax, Canada, to Southampton. Although we could not travel on that voyage, we were able to wave it off in Halifax.

In recent years we have seen photos of two of our favourite ships being scrapped: P&O's lovely S.S. Canberra and Union-Castle's RMS Windsor Castle. This is inevitable, of course, but still sad.

 

The first class restaurant on the NORMANDIE was according to experts the finest restaurant in the world. Some passengers did not even bother to consult the "carte" (bill of fare/menu) but just ordered whatever they fancied and somehow the chefs could prepare any dish whatsoever as long as it was catalogued in the Larousse Gastronomique.

Now then, I posted the sad information on the Cunard forum as I did not think too many "Carnival" Cruise Critic posters would be very bothered by the news.

But please let me relate a true story:

My friend, big in the cruise business in St Thomas - you've probably been on one of his shore excursions - was travelling transatlantic on the QE2, Queen's Grill class. At lunch time the Maitre d' asked what he would like for dinner.

"What have you got?"

"We have everything Sir"

He thought this a slightly pompous boast and so said:

"In that case, for dinner tonight, I would like to have jugged hare"

"Jugged hare" was duly served, mid-Atlantic. No-one knows how it was done, but my mate thought it pretty authentic and impressive.

I suspect it was rabbit!

My friend, big in the cruise business in St Thomas - you've probably been on one of his shore excursions - was travelling transatlantic on the QE2, Queen's Grill class. At lunch time the Maitre d' asked what he would like for dinner.

 

"What have you got?"

 

"We have everything Sir"

 

He thought this a slightly pompous boast and so said:

 

"In that case, for dinner tonight, I would like to have jugged hare"

 

"Jugged hare" was duly served, mid-Atlantic. No-one knows how it was done, but my mate thought it pretty authentic and impressive.

 

I suspect it was rabbit!

So if I asked for country Ham, Okra and Black-eyed peas with Sweet tea and stickybuns, oh, yeah- and a moon pie, I could have it?

Karie,

Who has okra in the freezer, black-eyed peas (with ham hock) in the fridge, and I don't eat sticky buns!

What I've NEVER understood, and have never had explained to me, is what the french thought they were doing in 1962?

Keep in mind that when she was conceived, just over half of the passengers crossing the Atlantic were still doing it by ship. Of course the number was dwindling and by 1962 it had already swung the other way, but you have to go by when she was designed and ordered, not when she was completed.

But all that is rather irrelevant as she was really never intended to make money... Such things were completely secondary. She was built for prestige, not profit. Anything else would just be icing on the cake.

I've read that she sailed 80% full on the early crossings. But 12 years life with never a profit?

She sailed quite full most of the time - but her running costs were outrageously high.

I have never seen any evidence that she made money for NCL either! The conventional wisdom says that she did, but I don't put too much stock in that. "Everybody knows" she was wildly profitable for NCL but a few years back I read an interview with Knut Kloster where he very strongly implied (though he didn't say it in so many words) that she consistently lost money for NCL, too. Unfortunately I've misplaced the interview but it was quite fascinating... Up until then I always assumed that she was profitable for NCL at least some of the time, but now I must wonder.

FRANCE was an hideously expensive ship to operate - I think even UNITED STATES with her hugely powerful machinery cost less! It seems to me that FRANCE/NORWAY is a ship which was all but impossible to make money with.

Many old timers who sailed on both the NORMANDIE and the FRANCE (while they belonged to the French Line) say that the NORMANDIE was unsurpassed in the level of service.

This is quite possible, but keep in mind they were of two different eras.

One thing FRANCE had to deal with that I don't think was much of a problem with NORMANDIE was labor trouble!

The first class restaurant on the NORMANDIE was according to experts the finest restaurant in the world.

Honestly I can't say I ever recall hearing that about NORMANDIE, but I do know that the New York Times' restaurant critic at the time said that FRANCE's Chambord Restaurant (first-class) was the best French restaurant in the world... And I believe it!

I saw a documentary years ago on the NORMANDIE and attended a lecture abroad NCL some years ago about her.

I feel sure that the FC restaurants on both the NORMANDIE and the FRANCE were among the best, if not the best that French "hauts cuisiniers" could muster.

Both ships were the pride not only of the FRENCH LINE but also of FRANCE herself.

Legendary ships.

I have never seen any evidence that she made money for NCL either! The conventional wisdom says that she did, but I don't put too much stock in that. "Everybody knows" she was wildly profitable for NCL but a few years back I read an interview with Knut Kloster where he very strongly implied (though he didn't say it in so many words) that she consistently lost money for NCL, too. Unfortunately I've misplaced the interview but it was quite fascinating... Up until then I always assumed that she was profitable for NCL at least some of the time, but now I must wonder.

well, I haven't found the interview (yet) But here is a past passenger's story of her cruise aboard her.

It really takes you right there. You'll reach a paragraph near the end that brought tears to the eyes of the writer. It did me, too.

http://www.smallshipcruises.com/bigshipcruises.html

Scroll down to the story

RIP.

Karie,

who has never sailed her, and now never will.

She sailed quite full most of the time - but her running costs were outrageously high.

 

FRANCE was an hideously expensive ship to operate - I think even UNITED STATES with her hugely powerful machinery cost less! It seems to me that FRANCE/NORWAY is a ship which was all but impossible to make money with

Thanks Doug for your detailed answer. I'd not given enough thought to this aspect of "Ships Of State", ie build and operate regardless of cost. Because Queens Mary and Elizabeth had many years of making profits for Cunard (although built with state money) I had assumed that commercial wisdom would apply to others. However, had I examined the evidence (Normandie made no money, United States withdrawn the moment subsidy was stopped, France withdrawn for the same reason, Michelangelo and Raffaello too) then I could have worked this out for myself! Concorde is a more modern example of this "State" attitude. It's a different world these days(?).

Why do you think France was so expensive to operate? Was it just the engines or do you think that the Hotel costs were expensive too (like the old Queens)?

Thanks again, sorry if this is a little off topic on a cruise board.

Pepper.

So if I asked for country Ham, Okra and Black-eyed peas with Sweet tea and stickybuns, oh, yeah- and a moon pie, I could have it?

Sorry Karie - I've never heard of moon pie - but you'd get everything else! I've asked for things like swan, alligator and snake - they haven't had them:p

Sorry Karie - I've never heard of moon pie - but you'd get everything else! I've asked for things like swan, alligator and snake - they haven't had them:p

Ahhh! I like Alligator tail.

Moon pies originated in Chattanooga Tennessee. They were made famous up north in a song by a northeast band, NRBQ (New Rythym and Blues Quartet) "RC Cola and a Moon Pie" which is a famous snack combination down south. They are thrown by some Krewes from their floats during New Orleans' Mardi Gras for people to catch and eat. Moon pies consist of two large graham cracker cookies with a center of Marshmallow, covered in chocolate. Actually, I don't eat those either. Not a big fan of either marshmallow or chocolate. But they are very popular down south! a real icon!

Here is their web page:

http://www.moonpie.com/

Be sure to check out the history page!

BTW, Lookout cookies are named for Lookout Mountain, which is a popular tourist destination (I believe you can see 7 states from it) and on the side of which I was born!- Nah- not in a log cabin- in a hospital Well, the hospital wasn't on the mountain- but I was born in section of Chattanooga- East Brainard, actually.

BTW, what does swan taste like?

Karie, who doesn't think she wants to have to catch the swans. They can be really nasty, as beautiful as they are!

At the risk of getting too off topic for this thread:

Ahhh! I like Alligator tail.

A bit like halibut. Not something I've ever had in the UK - I've only found it when abroad in continental Europe:(

Two large graham cracker cookies with a center of Marshmallow, covered in chocolate.

You mean waggon wheels - a revolting confection:p

BTW, what does swan taste like?

I've never had it. It's one of the things they don't carry on the QE2. Larousse says "Nowadays swan is regarded as too oily and leathery for the connoisseur". The swan is a Royal bird - in the UK most belong to the queen. Eating one can be punished quite severely - see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1531722,00.html.

Bringing the topic back to transatlantic liners, Guardian Unlimited says that "The penalty for taking a swan used to be seven years transportation!" Does that mean the government would pay for your passage on QM2?:D

I sailed my 1st 7 day cruise on the Norway in 1992, which got me addicted to cruising, I loved the Norway, her style, her staff, Such a shame!

Why do you think France was so expensive to operate? Was it just the engines or do you think that the Hotel costs were expensive too (like the old Queens)?

Fuel was incredibly cheap back then - Labor did them in.

The labor for maintaining a moving monument in pristine condition at all times and paying all those stewards to wait on you hand and foot (at all times) There were no third-world workers aboard, these ships were staffed w/ Frenchmen (or Englishmen in the case of Cunard) who sometimes earned more than their Second Class passengers did!

Thank you Brian for answering, confirms what I was thinking, hotel costs were the killer. I don't suppose the oil crisis in the early 70's helped matters.

Pepper.

I have a not so fond memory of the ss France from many years ago.

I was a junior officer in the US Navy on bridge watch aboard a US aircraft carrier approaching Portsmouth, England and the ss France was sailing between Southhampton and France. The two ships were on a collision course. We were sailing north and the France was on our port side. The France was sailing east and we were on her starboard side. According to the International Rules of the Road we were required to maintain course and speed and the France was required to maneuver so as to avoid colliding with us. She could speed up, slow down or turn to starboard to avoid us. But in typical gallic arrogance because she was THE SS FRANCE and therefore totally above such mundane matters as following international treaties and rules, the France continued on her course and speed totally ignoring her peril. When we approached the point of "in extremis" meaning a collision was becoming unavoidable, our captain ordered six short blasts sounded telling the France of the 'in extremis" condition followed by three short blasts as we reversed our propellers and slowed down. The ss France just continued on her course and speed as if we didn't exist as her passengers lined the decks and waved wildly in greeting. I suppose her passengers thought we were greeting them. We got within around half a mile and could see everything very clearly. I thought she was a very beautiful ship as we cursed her captain roundly. I don't recall if we filed a report on her captain's negligence or not, something I would not have been involved with. But it does remain a vivid memory with me. Even so, I am saddened by the thought of the dismal ignominy that the breakers will put her through as they chop her into bits and pieces. It is not a pretty process.

It is a sad ending to a beautiful ship. I always loved seeing her in port and listening to her horns. Too bad she was so expensive to operate and repair. She was one ship that couldn't be classified as a shoebox, as so many of todays ships are.

The reports that I have now heard have the one time pride of the French Merchant Fleet up on the beach at Alang.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

from Reuben Goossens website at http://www.ssmaritime.com/Norway-NewsUpdates-1.htm

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August 12: Last Thursday Alang was expecting a king tide, and if the breakers intended to beach SS Blue Lady (AKA Norway, France), they would have done it by now. However, she remains afloat, which does prove: 1. The court case is holding the breakers up, and 2. The breakers are still negotiating with "Bleu Riband-Gulf LLC." The game is not over yet!

********

There are addresses for officials in India and for others involved in the to beaching of this grand old ship. Go to their website and write to these people. The more support the better. There is an effort to save the ship and turn it into a hotel in Dubai (a la Queen Mary I in Long Beach, CA).

I sailed on FRANCE in 1974 and can't bear the thought of the Alang gang ripping her to pieces.

Lets hope Project Dubai can get the ship. The list of environmental issues the breakers would need to deal with will also be problems in any renovation/restoration.

It would be tragedy if the ship is lost to us, she is the pinnacle of ocean liner engineering design and implementation. In some ways the QE2 was ahead of her time but she was still a child of compromise. The France was built without listening to compromise. The result was one of the finest hulls ever built with lots of power which could shrug off most of what the ocean could throw at her.

I fell the interiors of the ship seem a bit dated and do not have the grandeur of the ships which preceded her or the style of the P&O ships of the 60s. As the Norway some of the interiors were lost to build the casino and add extra passenger capacity. This did ensure her future for another few years, giving me a chance to sail on her.

If I had somewhere to put it, I would love to get one of the cabins. Let's hope I do not get the opportunity!

I do not have much faith in "Project Dubai" or Reuben Goossens.

It is worth noting that Mr Goossens has been involved with a rather large number of failed ventures in the past, especially pertaining to the Australian cruise business. His web site has gotten people's hopes up about a number of different projects - for example, one to use THE BIG RED BOAT III (ex TRANSVAAL CASTLE, FESTIVALE, ISLANDBREEZE) on cruises from Australia. As far as I know, not one of these has ever come to fruition. He seems to lend out his web site to any dubious venture that comes along involving an old ship. I'm all for saving old ships, but it doesn't give me much confidence.

What I must take issue with is Mr Goossens' ridiculous vendetta against Star Cruises and NCL. It seems that he has constructed a conspiracy theory which basically says that Star Cruises, for some unknown but malicious reason, have forced NORWAY to be scrapped despite the apparent presence of parties who were willing and able to use NORWAY in some other way in the future, were it not for Star Cruises' blocking of them. I do not find this claim to be in the least bit plausible.

First, all evidence suggests that Star Cruises did everything they could to find some alternative use for NORWAY, and that it was not until it was absolutely clear to them that there was no alternative to scrapping that they did in fact sell her for scrap. It seems rather odd to me that if Star were so determined to scrap her as Mr Goossens and others claim, they did not simply sell her for scrap in the first place rather than hold on to her for several years while trying to find a buyer. Keeping her doubtless cost them a lot of money, and I cannot imagine that they'd have spent it if they were determined to scrap her anyway.

Second, if the Dubai group are for real, why did they not appear until after the ship was already sold for scrap? Why didn't they buy her when Star Cruises were ready and willing to sell her to anyone that had the money?

Third, Mr Goossens puts forward other companies as good examples, which are really quite silly. For example, he mentions P&O as a good example, as they sold ORIANA for further static use. Surely he is also aware that Premier Cruises were ready to buy CANBERRA, but that P&O elected to scrap her instead? This is just as bad as what he is accusing Star Cruises of!

He makes much of the apparent clause in the sale contract of BLUE LADY preventing her from being used commercially in the future. However, it seems he is not aware that this is standard practice when selling ships for scrap, for many reasons. No doubt many will remember that CGT included such a clause when selling LIBERTÉ for scrap, having seen ÎLE DE FRANCE used in "The Last Voyage". I guess it is a good thing Mr Goossens' web site was not around in 1962, or he would have called for boycotting CGT!

In reality, what Mr Goossens makes so much fuss about is a clause in the contract saying that if she is to be used for further commercial use, the new owners will have to pay $2m to Star. Now, Mr Goossens claims that the Dubai people have very large sums of money to spend on her, in which case I do not understand why, if they are genuinely willing and able to buy the ship, they do not simply abide by the contract and pay Star the $2m! This "fine" is not any kind of effort on Star's part to stop the ship from being used in the future; rather it is purely there because the ship's value for further use is higher than her scrap value, and it is designed to prevent someone from buying the ship for scrap and then selling her on for further use at a higher price, thus cheating Star out of money. It is only fair that if she is sold for scrap and then resold for further use, that Star ought to get some sort of compensation. Otherwise, nobody would ever be able to sell a ship for less than scrap value!

At any rate, if these Dubai people can afford the money necessary to turn the ship into a floating hotel or whatever it is they want to do, then surely they can afford this $2m fee. However, Mr Goossens neglects to mention this fact and seems instead to suggest that Star will not allow the ship to be sold for further use. They will do that; they just want their $2m. Seems fair to me... And yet instead Mr Goossens calls for boycotting Star and says all sorts of very nasty things about them.

Indeed, if we are to boycott Star, no doubt we must also boycott Carnival because P&O sold CANBERRA for scrap, Royal Caribbean because Celebrity sold BRITANIS and AMERIKANIS for scrap, and so on! Indeed, since the clause that so provokes the ire of Mr Goossens is standard practice in the shipping business, I suppose we ought to boycott the whole industry! But he does not suggest that, making me wonder why he has it in for Star in particular...

In the end, I think it is inevitable that NORWAY will be scrapped. Sad, yes, but I can't see this "Project Dubai" thing working out. I just don't trust Mr Goossens and I have no more faith in this than in any of the other pie-in-the-sky ventures with which he's been affiliated over the years. Whether or not you want to blame Star Cruises for her scrapping is up to you. I will not, and I will not have any trouble sailing in their ships in the future.

Doug- Thanks for explaining the whole situation. I did not understand any of the background .... I just found Goossen's website two weeks ago. I just can't stand the thought of FRANCE at Alang. I will keep hoping for good news, but I'll expect bad. :(