Cap_D

Depending on edge class ship, about 150, number includes Aqua SS, and CS gets the number up to 180 (which still have butlers or at least different intentions compared to SS), with total of about 200 suites. *above I may have used a 180 number. Example of how current amenities promoted at: https://creative.rccl.com/Sales/Celebrity/General_Info/Flyers/Edge_Series_Accommodations_The_Retreat_and_Staterooms.pdf; not exactly same as booking portal (realize there are some disclaimers, plus as we are commenting on whatever is actually available onboard). Ascent numbers available in fact sheet PDF linked on this site: https://www.thecelebritycommitment.com/ships/celebrity-ascent/. Edge and Apex have somewhat different numbers and ratios as the ships were a tad shorter and less rooms overall and in Retreat. But, most Edge class Retreat guests are in SSs of some type. Butlers for 150 may not be practical, though that was the design and intended delivery mechanism, and for some things may have made difference. Meanwhile the above linked document on amenities still indicates a butler will unpack for a SS (just saying).

💯% plus the room attendant, host, housekeeper seems to have a lot more rooms, more to do, etc, and no more time or training to do it in, everything else is likely more overloaded, and varying or diminished quality may mean you would need more and not less services or troubleshooting on your own or accept the reality. So, SS is effectively self service like rest of ship. I presume there are exceptions or squeaky wheel examples, but the norm is not anything better from the reports despite what Celebrity said in one off inquires about the cutbacks. And, past was far from always perfect operationally.

Example: SS were sold as having dedicated butler service, people paid, service discontinued, some people still solicited for final payment (no update/disclosure provided post NRD). To the extent the marketing was updated in August, the butler and team is also a farce. There may be a head butler in name, that if there is engagement simply says the equivalent to you're on your own, and then you're left with the housekeeper, phone to same services as anyone else on board (and follow-up that occurs), and waiting in line in the Retreat lounge. That's not team delivery of services, that's self service. A housekeeper is not a butler, or troubleshooter no matter how nice they may be at pointing out where the soap is and how the thermostat works, let alone timelines of cleaning and turndown. So, don't advertise and then charge for services not made available. But, cutting service on a 3000 plus passengers (400 plus Retreat guests) doesn't help enhance the experience when Retreat was designed with a point person in the told that was cut. The butler or someone with some access to the system and knowledge, plus ownership, whether using a team or not, may increase the chance of a positive experience.

And, for those not fluent in the numbers, on Edge class it's about 180 rooms / 80% of the Retreat rooms that are paying for the services of the Retreat experience regardless of room size (arguably prior to any differentiation in service levels, which to this day is not consistently presented across current direct marketing and compensated influencers) and getting only the services of what in a normal hotel is called a housekeeper and desk concierge in the lounge. Room size alone has only recently in practice and intent been a differentiator for service. (Yes the upper suites should be pampered, but that's not the issue). Although someone in an upper suite outside of their room still has to go to their room or a house phone to access the Butler, and wait like anyone else for their food in the Retreat Deck or drink in the understaffed Retreat Lounge. It's also in doubt if anyone in Retreat recieved to their room breakfast items connected to the physical Luminae from the Luminae room service breakfast menu that is promoted at time of booking. Two additional asides, on a sky suite the cost for primarily Luminae or wherever the Aqua Sky suites dine, and anything else that is per person, wifi and drinks package, can be backed into by doing a 3 person booking and comparing to the 2 person booking amount. Take the per day cost and subtract. That's what people are paying more for plus the slightly larger room.* I'd also add that Retreat was busting st the seams before LHB since the return to sail. Many times it was sold out, but staffing was generally higher (the butlers hadn't been fired yet), and the housekeeping room attendant role may have been covering fewer rooms. The net outcome was there were less issues with unmade rooms, higher chance of personalized contact to make one feel like they were getting something etc. But, what exactly that may have been was not as much luxury as it was troubleshooting and handling of requests in a more seamless manner without the passenger having to work as much for it. Now it's much closer to the equivalent of standing in line at guest relations, taking a gamble on room service delivery, someone intuitively listening and offering a suggestion or taking care the issue, etc. In our cruise ending the day after LLP resigned we had already felt some of the above in Retreat in a CS, but with some capacity to recover when issues like room service orders never materializing before an excursion, a butler that was often frazzled, and having to do a lot of self help were raised with everyone involved. So, CS wasn't perfect, and maybe now it's possibly marginally better since there SSs were abandoned. Yet, our conclusion has been that our 2023 CS experience on the service side was not better than our SS service in 2022, when Retreat was at full capacity. And, if anything the SS butler in 2022 was at the top of his game, and presenting snacks, options, offers to do things at us so that we could have the best experience he could help facilitate ship wide. Now that is definitively gone as there are only opportunities to engage with the overworked housekeeper (whom on land you wouldn't even know or need to know), and be told by a head Butler to do it yourself. But, at full capacity in 2022, Retreat butlers and overall was better service on an SS, and we did feel pampered. In Q2 2023 CS, not so much until we had to speak up. *I have no idea how to fully price an RCCl Oasis or Icon class ship suite with access to the restaurant and lounge since the drinks packages and other stuff is not included, there was no OBC (as there was in retreat), and definitely no butler until one gets to the few upper suites. Relatively speaking an SS or CS on Celebrity was a bargain compared to Royals equivalent sized rooms, as it was evident there was going to need to be additional out of pocket cash spent on items to catch up to what was included in Retreat. Now, it's still impossible to price out RCCL, but the differential has definitely shrunk on price and level of service. Notably the OBC also effectively meant specialities were included for SS and CS rooms assuming Luminae was used for half or more of the dinners. So that creates a sense of tailoring and freedom that some may have used. We also had plenty for excursions since our third person was not eligible for the expensive ones due to age and height. Celebrity has gone down on service, up on price. Yet, we were mostly buying for service, and minimum requirements for room. Not solely on price, although celebrity SSs are now clearly overpriced, deceptively marketed, and placing people in less than ideal situations where the decreased service impacts the experience.

If Jim or anyone else were to use the QR code or in a direct contact with the Hotel Director were to ask to meet with LHB and entourage it would be interesting to know how that response is received. And, thanks to anyone in advance if they do have the opportunity to talk LHB's ear off and not let her claim she doesn't know the business, loves chocolate desserts, or whatever talking point she tries to use. There's hardly anything that I've read or observed myself about the current state of the guest experience, or concerns that reserved customers have, that seems out of line or unreasonable to convey or be addressed by Celebrity. Much ot it's basic stuff. Like stock enough wine, staff enough housekeepers so they don't always appear like they have been working all day and rooms are made up in a timely manner, staff more food runners, have a real single point of contact and adapt to needs of SS and all Retreat customers, stock sugar, be truthful in advertising and marketing, etc

Wow. That is some big news. Maybe she's bringing the wine from Miami, the 4 oz filets for the childrens menu, frozen cookie dough and warmer, pillow chocolates, and seapass card reader to charge for each? Not to impose on your vacation, but could you slip her a thumb drive of all of your very reliable critiques and those of others from this board. Time to use that QR code again! Now that you know the hotel director on a first name basis..... my mind wanders late here in North America.... couldn't be a better ambassador than you and Iain. Ummm is that the leg when @terrydtx joins up with the ship, too? I can't recall. Looking forward to the next few days of discussion.... Edit/PS: Meanwhile over on Instagram LLP has been promoting a book she wrote on leadership, empowering others, etc. (perhaps for discussion on another thread).

Good move to remove. The chair is a magnet for stubbing ones toes day and night. It did make for a good clothing rack when I returned to the room after my wife and child were asleep in the evening. Jim, hope you feel better. As you know, there's plenty of flavored syrups and mixes at each bar if you find yourself needing to make your own vitamin water or slushy with added salt. The vitamin water zero will blend okay if you don't mind them adding a bit of neutral sugar base, or a splash from a carton bar mix that matches the flavor to help with the emulsification. Using carbonated water gets one closest to a Slurpee. I've had good results with the QR code, too. It cuts out a lot of the game of telephone, voicemail message in the room with the light, notes on the dresser, and so on.

Thank you, @Georgia_Peaches and @twins_to_alaska.

Indeed. The filet and a salad, and whatever else from the menu, make for a nice dinner for a child or adult. Very welcome news. We had it on Apex in March/April, but had read it's been hit or miss in terms of availability and cutbacks.

I don't think they thought about efficient drink delivery in the Retreat. It's kind of an afterthought. What I do find helpful is the Edge class Retreat lounges don't look like other places on the ship, aside from the carpet and general design influences. I guess it looks like a living room for the staterooms (SS and CSs). So, it's not the same look as the martini bar, world class, Cafe, Eden or any of the food venues, and obviously the rest of the ship is enjoyable and as much or more a draw at different times of day. (A concern I have about Yacht Club, from what I've seen on YT and trip reports is the rest of the ship). One doesn't need Retreat on Celebrity is perhaps the point, IF they keep up the rest of the ship, service, and food. And, given the differential that may be needed to justify Retreat pricing, management seems to be willing to play with the rest of the ship. The Ascent seafood extravaganza is encouraging (although lunch didn't seem to be toyed with like dinner and then MDRs), waiting for drinks at the Martini bar, and other issues seem like widespread staffing issues that one way or another impact everyone. I don't have enough info about other mass market lines to know if it's the norm or not for ships to frequently need more crew at venues. (I do read often seating at NCL live music venues is sparse, like Eden can get on a busy night, and have seen Edge class theater shows with standing room only and could have used a matinee or something to ease the demand.).

@kwokpot thanks for sharing the pics. I have never sailed on a non-Edge class Celebrity ship. I personally like bright and energetic too, and like how the flow of the ship interior works. (The new ships plus the 2022 version of the Retreat is what got us to pay attention to cruising during the pandemic. Endless videos and then reading this board.). And, I know from your posts you've got attention to detail. So, I'm curious is the Michaels lounge carpet design seen in other places on the ship? The Edge class Retreat lounge carpet is, of course, in the staterooms.

Ditto @DaKahuna My hotel price example is based on a large online travel agent network. Not big box store or direct from Marriott/Ritz. Dates and such may impact the amount. But, one point is something nice on land with hundreds or a thousand others (maybe not 3k) gets close to the SS price per day, once dining out is factored in and other expenses, and one still has to line up at Starbucks or obtain lounge access for coffee, find a reservation, and so on. The items Celebrity took away coupled with advance booking with fickle offerings, inherent limitations to menus and other quirks of what is available, makes it easier to consider the land stuff (that can be booked the day of or weeks out, not months/years) or the non-Retreat.* *Presumes OVC and MDR not gutted (again), and that they are on the upswing. If not.... That's a different thread.... or time. Have to work today.

PS to my post above, it's @JDPCruisers comment about the out years that makes sense, too. The lack of real benefits or connection that makes the SS or Retreat something that's a room play at this point. Couples especially have other choices for elevated experiences as compared to families that are left with the other ships within a ship, and DCL. Royal at 7k people, and just as messed up or or worse suite ship within a ship experiences (when it's even available), doesn't compare, in my view. And, now counter to everything, a lot of what we're talking about is ease of access and value (and even some places where marginally improvements could make a big difference). But, price out a resort, and factor in some of the inconveniences and variable weather that can't be steered around, etc. and a cruise can still appear to be a good overall experience. At various south Florida Ritz Carlton resorts for a basic room (SS equivalent) over the holiday break are at best $750 / night (most are over 1k a night) with breakfast and small credit, not enough to cover or including cost of drinks, lunch, dinner, entertainment, lobby shop for snacks, rental car, etc. No butler, no included room service (or just a flat delivery fee) and find your own coffee or in room Nespresso, mini bar costs, and other costs. Probably wouldn't wait an extraordinary amount of time for lunch, and may not run into a 2 hour window to have it in or pivot to a backup. All food would be cooked to order, and not just based on venue or a special request.

This seems to be the consensus experience of those that have been in SS and non-Retreat on Edge class. While not evident from the reports (and they can speak for themselves), the lack of included OBC (to cover self obtained basics, like food to make up for sundeck delays), included gratuities, declining or sparse service in Retreat areas, including the lack of the butler, frazzled room attendant, etc, do not help matters. If food were to decline in the MDR and be offset by Luminae or included speciality dining (whether included or with OBC), then maybe there's a case to be made. So, with that said, it is Luminae, and a few extra square feet in a room and balcony that are the hard differences. To those staying in the so called upper suites, I'm hard pressed to see the value unless you were to get dedicated service throughout the ship, including the Retreat sundeck, truly reserved seats at shows you are able to get to, Luminae with USDA prime cuts, etc or not pay the current high rates. The butler would really need to be with you outside the room envelope and the tethered phone to get the value, in my view. I'd be demanding a mobile like they have to get service on demand for 20k / 2k + per day, or more and up. (The 20k is a stab at the low end from old bookings). The SS cutbacks and that Retreat experience, in my view also calls into question the entire Retreat pricing structure vs services. They don't drive me to the bigger room and the faux amenities. The CS has a barely separate sleeping area (and still same room service breakfast), and the upper suites are a lot of space, yet still at the mercy of the staffing levels, and quality of food and such of the rest of the ship. In other words on a port day, one can go to shore and dine at beach club x / local watering hole, wait it out on the Retreat Deck with the SS passenger, or perhaps hang in the room and maybe get higher quality room service based on the butler. That seems close to the same as the SS customer with the exception of a dedicated food runner. Unlimited specialities like rooftop grill or fine cut at night isn't enough to make up for waiting an hour or more for a 5 item lunch menu, waiting for drinks, or having to go to OVC for ice cream or anything else that is the same for everyone. Those other venues are open to anyone, and the cost has been covered by the included OBC (for the night one needed a change from Luminae) or incrementally is not a lot. Of course, if one likes it, then great; and if it was offered, a good deal, etc. more space and marginally more services is a plus. Convenience is an important part of a vacation. And, so there no reason anyone shouldn't do a suite if they want one, but it's hard to fathom it being demonstrably better in every way that it would need to be to make up for general shortcomings anyone can experience, or, more positively said, the elevated mass experience of the rest of the ship, including Retreat. The caveat being I'm of the mind that one should expect the same degree of service and quality when a certain level is purchased as advertised, like the Retreat and not that larger rooms or higher cost rooms should get better service. No one wants to wait in line, be caught in a jam for lunch, sit in the last row, have to search for morning coffee, etc.

👍 The best scenario for food on the Retreat deck is probably ordering early and extra, which we did on Apex after my wife and child went on a shore excursion and texted me from the shore before boarding their return tender. I was camped out doing work from the sundeck bar. The timing worked great and everyone agreed their burgers were as good as the reputation (crust was memorable), but so was the fresh guacamole at the OVC on Mexican lunch day when they ran of corn chips and seemed to on the fly fry up their stock of flour tortillas to compensate. (So really hoping Celebrity keeps up quality at lunch in the OVC, as we rarely see reports of fresh non processed food from the other mass market lines - and we cant eat the burger or a composed lunch every day). Nothing we don't all realize here, but the neat thing is for you and @Norwaylady everything about your respective trips except the fare type and rooms were equal for comparison purposes. Same ships, crew, just as crowded, etc. You even had the small porthole balcony (I hope I'm not confusing my trip reports), so the SS balcony isn't entirely different. That being said, wow, what great trips you've had and thanks for sharing your time and observations.

The service issues on the sundeck may not be growing pains. We've had delayed, raw burgers, and then more delay for items to be fixed. A trip to Mast Grill was a snack at one point during that ordeal. Considering the company wants to save money, the wait time may not be a concern. Yet, it would be nice if they gave Retreat guests a voucher for the Bistro, a clear way to order room service (a different set of food runners), or decent means to do takeout from the the OVC. The cost of Retreat is incremental based on sea days and port days with some allowance for lunch, so when there are long waits there is some aspect for paying for something one can't access, in addition to the inconvenience. The hours of the other venues don't help either.

I am interested in this one, too. We often had to ask on Apex last March/April. Occasionally we would come across a single bottle that may have been an extra from when someone else asked. It appears the soda selection was stocked with European versions, e.g., Coke Light. Will be interesting to see how long those supplies last until they restock at FLL. (I think some of the frozen fries last until the end of the Caribbean season given the labeling on the bags.). On the Retreat sundeck are there grab and go canned and bottled drinks in carts or on the bar? One of the YT videos I saw showed a cart near the bar during the first sailing - but only for a second and it may have been for restocking. Grab and go could help avoid lines for the basics at the sundeck bar, which on Edge and Apex spill over into the pathway. Most everyone has some type of drink package that would cover the items.

Happy birthday, Jim! Thanks for sharing. Nice to see this video, and also a reminder of how the Celebrity CD is a bit unique among the bigger cruise lines. I hope that doesn't change. Sure they will do fun and games, and make themselves the focus of jokes. Yet, they are bit elevated, stand ins for the passengers, etc. (and do behind the scenes work with the entertainment scheduling and such that utilizes the ship). The observation is coupled with my reading of Google news served articles about the mid-contract resignation of a Carnival CD, Cookie. And, the comments were insightful as some book, in part, based on the CD. It's not an easy job.

Unfortunate. The Apex pizza was better compared to Edge too. Someone mentioned, I think who was a member of the crew on Apex that posted around February 2023, that they had been trained on adjustments to dough handling and oven temp or length of baking. The made to order results was praiseworthy.

The Annex space appears to be the space that was formerly a Captains Club "lounge," although we never saw anyone in it other than a crew member.

That definitely a valid concern. In March on Apex the wait for drinks in the Retreat lounge was hit or miss, and that's with the bar in place of the next cruise desks that are on Edge (and not removed on the dry dock), and before the butler firings. The space generally has a few bottlenecks, and there are a few places to sit that would allow someone to not see lines forming or people navigating around each other. Generally Retreat rooms have been sold out or near full on most sailings, so demand is probably even most sailings. There's also some comments on this topic among the recent posts in the thread on @Norwaylady's world cruise, but you may have seen those already (hard to keep track today or all the conversations taking place. Also, in the new Ascent live report it was mentioned by @lhsail that martini bartender and entertainer Rendy was headed to Edge presumably to help train or add to their staffing. I would think the elimination of butler service probably adds to in person demand in the lounge for any number of requests and questions.

If it's a middle tier, i think this ostensibly creates a path for Celebrity to get a few additional dollars from passengers that may not want the premium package and hedge with a middle package, yet without Celebrity having to actually provide more product. Said differently, to those that purchase good luck getting and identifying the items that fall between the classic and premium offering. It may be a lot of work. Consumption will be what it is, but the right offerings and access/time seems to be increasingly the gating factor as to whether someone gets their money's worth and comes out even or ahead. This will just add to confusion pre and post purchase. Our own experience is limited, but even with unlimited possibilities when we had the premium package that came with the Retreat we didn't feel we got our money's worth from the drink package. My wife, child, and myself found ourselves with mixed outcomes with wait times, when ordering, in line at the Cafe Bacios trying to explain blended frozen espresso drinks (the basis for a lot of Starbucks sales), or bars that didn't have our desired spirit. And, our sailings were not at full capacity and before cutbacks.

Thanks for the response. We heard on the thread about the Edge there could be some need for more staff, and so on. Nice to hear they do work on these issues, and use their superstars. @Georgia_Peaches I hope you're enjoying the new ship smell. Sorry for the sidebar. Looking forward to your report, and observations ... Not only is this the actual maiden cruise with passengers, but also a Thanksgiving cruise, and your vacation. Thanks for sharing.

@lhsail does this mean Rendy does training? I've always assumed that is what goes on during the TAs without passengers before the press and revenue cruises, and obviously periodically as new crew join. One Disney DCL doc on streaming had the crew putting down carpet and other decor leading up to the new ship arriving in Florida (about a year ago), and Chris Wong, a casino host, on YouTube showed his Royal Caribbean crew colleagues installing and removing items on a ship during the dry dock.

Fully agree. You articulated the drawbacks very well. It's kind of a pretend lounge. The lounge is missing something even compared to a hotel or airport lounge and somewhat limited by it's configuration. It's also not quite as good in meeting ones snack needs as an airport lounge as the "snack" items (aka junk food) is missing. No candy, bar mix, hard pretzels, etc, and the nuts are only out for a limited time. We found ourselves still needing to leave the Retreat for certain things throughout the day and miss out on convenience. E.g., iced coffee drinks, ice cream, food when nothing was out. One also could try, but ordering from the room service or sundeck menu is not encouraged (not sure about cooler sailings, but haven't seen anyone with a burger in pictures from Iceland, and have never seen heaters in pictures from those cruises). It also is not big enough for everyone that wants to use it on some days, which kind of makes it a gamble.