HAL's Treatment of Long Time Employees

[soldham]

I think it is easy for all of us to "talk the talk", but when it comes to "walking the walk", just wondering how loud the complaints will become if the cruise costs doubled to cover the additional staff wages? Just sayin......

 

Just thinking the VERY same thing - if wages on ships were comparable to those on land in NA many of us would not be cruising near as often.

 

And I personally think the argument about 'much better than they can get in their home country' IS a valid point. Poverty and unemployment are horrible in the Philippines and staff I have spent time with consider themselves blessed. They get to see the world, master English, support their families at home, then return and get a good job as they now have marketable skills.

[jba2]

mallbucks,

I would rather pay more for my cruises if I knew that the employees were receiving more pay. I also don't feel it is necessary to attend to cabins twice a day. I would rather the cabin stewards receive more time off.

While I've only been on a few cruises and have enjoyed them immensley, I don't like the fact that some of the workers (i.e., those from poorer countries) are subsidizing my vacation through their abysmal working conditions akin to those who worked in sweat shops. I think I'll spend my vacation dollars elsewhere.

[CtheW0rld]

It was not just this one employee. We inquired about 6 and were told by the Assistant Dining Room Manager onboard the Veendam that this is being done fleetwide.

 

you probably just got this person fired...

 

Corporate America is the same on the high seas as on ground. Forced early retirement and layoffs hit long time employees of big corporations every day. At least these guys have jobs.

 

very true. companies are always looking for the cheapest labor. that will not be people with lots of experience.

[lilipad2]

ss475

You make an excellent point. Thanks for bringing this up. I was disgusted to learn that employees have different working conditions based on their nationality. The cooks, cleaners, room stewards have working conditions that would be considered illegal in most western nations. Please don't justify this and say that the workers are making more money than they could in their home country. I would have thought that the ships would have to provide the working conditions that can be found in the country where the ship is registered or in the nation where the company's head office is located.

 

I believe ships do indeed have to abide by certain laws of the country whose flag they fly under. HAL, if I'm not mistaken, flies under the Dutch flag. I recall that most P&O ships, although British, flew under the Liberian Flag. Many cruise lines fly under Liberian flag which I believe would be less rigid (for lack of better term) as Dutch registry. It's a loophole for the cruise line that I'm sure has its advantages (from a business perspective). I found this on Yahoo Answers, while not definitive, It was pretty representative of the answers I found out there: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080604190938AApV9ec. Not sure where to find all the info on Dutch registry though. That would tell us more obviously.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that hotel employees on cruiselines very often are technically not employees of the actual cruise line. Yes, their paycheck comes from them, etc. but they're contract workers who are employed many times through various international employment agencies. I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that it's got to be a very different employee/employer relationshp than if you're employed by the actual company. I'm sure there are exceptions to this too, but my understanding is these are contract employees. In addition to pay and tips, while at sea, they are covered by the company's insurance and often family at home are also covered which can be a huge perk for some. At the end of their contract, they leave ship and may be eligible for various benefits and (if they have a favorable ship review) can be decide to come back for another contract. Also, I do know that the amount of resumes these companies recieve for employment are staggering. There's no lack of people who want these jobs in these countries.

[soldham]

I think the sweat shop comparator might just be a bit on the dramatic side....

 

ALL staff on cruise ships work very hard. And work long hours. And yes - some are paid much better than others. Spend some time talking to others on the ship and you will see that there is much variability. And it is not as well defined as you might think.

 

Start doing the math and you will quickly see that a 7 day cruise assuming 12 hour work day and minimum wage in Ontario of $10.25/hr quickly rack up to about $850,000. Which, assuming a typical HAL passenger number of 1200 means around $700.00 per person just for wages alone. Throw in all the other costs for running a ship and I think you would see you one week cruise balloon in to what you pay for three (or more ) now.

 

You may be willing to pay that but unless ALL the other cruise lines did the very same thing (a cold day in you know where this will be) HAL would be out of business faster than you can say Employment Standards.

[serendipity1499]

you probably just got this person fired...

 

I agree & think it's shameful! I'm also appalled that someone would malign any company without knowing all the facts.. :mad:

Betty

[babyher]

I think it is easy for all of us to "talk the talk", but when it comes to "walking the walk", just wondering how loud the complaints will become if the cruise costs doubled to cover the additional staff wages? Just sayin......

 

Just thinking the VERY same thing - if wages on ships were comparable to those on land in NA many of us would not be cruising near as often.

 

And I personally think the argument about 'much better than they can get in their home country' IS a valid point. Poverty and unemployment are horrible in the Philippines and staff I have spent time with consider themselves blessed. They get to see the world, master English, support their families at home, then return and get a good job as they now have marketable skills.

 

In that case would you want your son or daughter to work under those conditions ?

 

It seems to be Ok for Wang Woo or Hop Sing from Pango Pango to clean up after us with a big smile and a hearty "Yassir" or "No Maam" but when it comes to their rights and compensation it's a different story.

 

Just because they come from a poor country means they should be thankful to be treated however a big corporation feels like treating them?

 

I remember the big debacle about The Pride of Aloha with the mostly if not all American crew a few years back. The complaints about the service were sky high.

 

You know what ? Young American kids aren't going to eat "You know what" through a big smile and be treated poorly by passengers and management. They have a higher standard of living and a better education and they don't and are taught not to take the hassle. I am not talking about just plain lazy people . But hard working folks .

 

I have seen passengers on cruise ships treat crew members in a way that would get them dumped in an alley at places here on land.

 

Why is this ok for someone from a third world nation?

[soldham]

We could chat about this forever but reality does get in the way. Why do you think Canada brings Jamaicans by the thousands to pick fruits and vegetables in Southern Ontario? Same thing happens so I am told with Mexicans in California. Because people in NA (generally) are not willing to do that kind of work for the pay scale that would be received. And you and I are not willing to pay premium for our veggies - so the system survives. Nor are we for our vacations (and this extends WAY beyond cruise ships...head to an all inclusive somewhere and you will see the same thing - just a different group of people.)

 

Nobody deserves to be treated poorly for what they do for a living. And HAL is not responsible for how a passenger treats a staff person - that is called poor upbringing - which no amount of wealth seems to cure.

[Jade13]

While onboard the Veendam - July 11-18, we inquired about some Head Waiters and crew members we have come to know over the last 30 years of cruising on HAL. We had watched them rise from Dining Room Stewards in the early 1980's to Head Stewards and Assistant Maitre'de. We came to know some of them so well, that we hosted several when the ship went into drydock and they stayed with us and our children for two weeks at a time. We read online last year on Capt Albert's blog about one of them being given a 25 year Service Award onboard the Veendam for his loyalty and dedicated service to HAL. Each time we cruise we ask about them and sometimes we are fortunate enough to have one of them onboard. This trip when we asked about them, we were told they had all been DEMOTED back to dining room waiters ( the new term). HAL wants young blood. They have changed the title from Head Steward to Assistant Dining Room Manager, and there is one Dining Room Manager, no longer a Maitre'de. It was so sad for us to see one of these friends who had been in charge of the Lido, now standing outside by the Lido pool, handing out silverware as passengers went thru an outside buffet line. When we greeted him, he seemed so beaten down but he tried to maintain his dignity by telling us he was happy to still have a chance to work.

IS THIS HOW HAL REWARDS their faithful longtime employees for all of their years of loyal service? We are appauled at this treatment and saddened by their lack of compassion for their older employees. It is our opinion that HAL would prefer they just not come back. We were told one of the crew we had inquired about had decided to stay home. SHAME ON HOLLAND AMERICA

 

There may be more to the story than you would ever find out.

[jba2]

"ALL staff on cruise ships work very hard. And work long hours. And yes - some are paid much better than others. Spend some time talking to others on the ship and you will see that there is much variability. And it is not as well defined as you might think."

 

Don't you think all workers are entitled to days off? I don't think the sweat shop comparison is off the mark. How many people do you know work 7 days a week for 10 months with no days off?

[Taxguy77]

mallbucks,

I would rather pay more for my cruises if I knew that the employees were receiving more pay. I also don't feel it is necessary to attend to cabins twice a day. I would rather the cabin stewards receive more time off.

While I've only been on a few cruises and have enjoyed them immensley, I don't like the fact that some of the workers (i.e., those from poorer countries) are subsidizing my vacation through their abysmal working conditions akin to those who worked in sweat shops. I think I'll spend my vacation dollars elsewhere.

 

Don't forget your clothing dollars, and almost anything in a WalMart store dollars! Almost all are made in China, often under conditions and for pay that would make your cruiseships poorest employee seem like a gentleman of liesure!

[Travalerie]

 

How accepting we have become of injustice.:(

Well said.

[soldham]

You need to go see what a real sweat shop is all about because I can assure you - HAL is no where close.

 

You are perhaps being ethnocentric - speak with staff and, in many cases, they would just as soon work everyday - they have nothing else to do and would much rather get back to thier families after their contract and stay there for 4 months rather than have one or two days off in seven and have a longer contract.

 

And to clarify - there are many people who work every day for extended periods of time - farmers being the one that comes to mind right off the top of my head - and many self employed business owners being another. You sign up for it - you can expect it.

[lilipad2]

"ALL staff on cruise ships work very hard. And work long hours. And yes - some are paid much better than others. Spend some time talking to others on the ship and you will see that there is much variability. And it is not as well defined as you might think."

 

Don't you think all workers are entitled to days off? I don't think the sweat shop comparison is off the mark. How many people do you know work 7 days a week for 10 months with no days off?

 

Here's the thing though (and without going into right or wrong, etc), they know how many days they are going to be working off the bat. This is not a surprise to anyone when they come on board. All nationalities work 7 days a week for the duration of their contract -- and still many choose to come back year after year. I know I would have a really hard time working like that and it's really a testament to their work ethic. It's definitely not for everyone and I think they deserve our respect and courtesy while we're onboard.

[fann1sh]

I'm with Colleyberry on this one.

 

Can't add anything to that statement, and still stay inside the board guidelines.

[KAYEF]

I just got on again to see if this post is still going and am amazed that it IS.

Who has proof of many of the things that are being said?:confused::confused::confused:

I've had staff tell me how much they LOVE being part of the HAL crew and I've walked by the pizza parties they've been given at night when I've been walking the promenade in a room I'd not seen before (near the stern.) They were having a (well deserved) grand time.

As mentioned, people complaining need to show by action that they are truly "what they say".....................by not cruising, not buying most of the clothing available in our stores, not shopping in Dollar Stores, not visiting most "All Inclusinve Resorts," not buying foreign made cars (that would include many "USA made cars" that have their engines and other parts made in other countries.)

I was shocked when on a tour to Copper Canyon we drove by a HUGE Electrolux Factory in Chihuahua! The guide told us the workers are picked up from their villages in large buses and that they take showers at work before they begin, etc............. and that they are so thankful for the running water, etc.

Look at the labels in whatever you buy...........most of us, including me, are ignorant regarding our products.

I'm leaving on a 14 day HAL cruise in six days and am looking forward to everything and I'm not going to feel guilty. Do I tip extra? YES. Do I write lots of positive notes on the provided forms? YES. Do I smile and ask about families at home and treat the staff like humans? YES; they LOVE to speak of their families and homes and countries

And, do I go to the Crew Shows? YES! They are one of my favorite things on HAL. The crew works hard on these and they really enjoy sharing their culture. How's the turnout? VERY poor..............the show is late at night.

I think I can let them know I appreciate this extra work on their part and I let them know that I love learning more about their culture by my attendance.

Will I abandon HAL? NO.

We were on another big name ship once and we passengers were thinking the food service crew was about to mutiny............NO tables in the buffet were cleaned unless the manager did it. The crew stood around with their arms crossed, defying us to ask for service...........the entire 15 days. No one seemed to be able to get them to work. :( I can't say what country they were from, but it was not the Philippines, Indonesia or the USA........yes, I DO know.

Now, I'm going to pack.;)

[serendipity1499]

I just got on again to see if this post is still going and am amazed that it IS.

 

Who has proof of many of the things that are being said?:confused::confused::confused:

 

I've had staff tell me how much they LOVE being part of the HAL crew and I've walked by the pizza parties they've been given at night when I've been walking the promenade in a room I'd not seen before (near the stern.) They were having a (well deserved) grand time.

 

As mentioned, people complaining need to show by action that they are truly "what they say".....................by not cruising, not buying most of the clothing available in our stores, not shopping in Dollar Stores, not visiting most "All Inclusinve Resorts," not buying foreign made cars (that would include many "USA made cars" that have their engines and other parts made in other countries.)

 

I was shocked when on a tour to Copper Canyon we drove by a HUGE Electrolux Factory in Chihuahua! The guide told us the workers are picked up from their villages in large buses and that they take showers at work before they begin, etc............. and that they are so thankful for the running water, etc.

 

Look at the labels in whatever you buy...........most of us, including me, are ignorant regarding our products.

 

I'm leaving on a 14 day HAL cruise in six days and am looking forward to everything and I'm not going to feel guilty. Do I tip extra? YES. Do I write lots of positive notes on the provided forms? YES. Do I smile and ask about families at home and treat the staff like humans? YES; they LOVE to speak of their families and homes and countries

And, do I go to the Crew Shows? YES! They are one of my favorite things on HAL. The crew works hard on these and they really enjoy sharing their culture. How's the turnout? VERY poor..............the show is late at night.

I think I can let them know I appreciate this extra work on their part and I let them know that I love learning more about their culture by my attendance.

 

Will I abandon HAL? NO.

<snip>

 

 

Now, I'm going to pack.;)

 

Well said..I feel exactly the same!

Betty

[jba2]

soldham,

Labour laws are in place to protect employees, not the self-employed.

[soldham]

KAYEF - that is right on the money. Read: cake and eat it too.

 

People get on their moral high horses but forget that their LCD TV, the Ralph Lauren shirt they are wearing, the appliances in their kitchen, etc. are all likely made in a country with employment standards much lower than HAL (or likely any other cruise line.) And if they have problems with said products they are likely calling India for support.

 

I have never spoken with a HAL staff person whose is miserable about what they do. Or, if they are, they keep it to themselves and hide it quite well. What I usually hear is that I am employed, my family is healthy and well fed, and I am proud of what I do, and I have a future. That cannot be said for everyone in this world - or even in the West.

 

If you feel some great guilt then please do leave a massive tip. But the only likely result of lobbying for an increase in salaries is a reduction in staff (heard of Detroit??) and thus less employment overall.

[soldham]

soldham,

Labour laws are in place to protect employees, not the self-employed.

 

That has nothing to do with your point which was who else works 7 days a week willingly for extended periods of time. And I provided you with examples. Readily.

[NickCDN]

ss475

You make an excellent point. Thanks for bringing this up. I was disgusted to learn that employees have different working conditions based on their nationality. The cooks, cleaners, room stewards have working conditions that would be considered illegal in most western nations. Please don't justify this and say that the workers are making more money than they could in their home country. I would have thought that the ships would have to provide the working conditions that can be found in the country where the ship is registered or in the nation where the company's head office is located.

 

Agree. I love cruising, but this is the one thing that REALLY bothers me! I think its the CDN in us. Just because they are making decent money when looking at thier home countries, does that mean its ok to pay them low wages and work very long hours (14-15 hours a day for 8 months with NO days off). I hope someday the cruiselines will enact thier own labour laws and cap maximum work hours per day as well as give the workers at least one full day off a week.

 

Look at NCL america, they went from 3 to 1 ships as they must use american crew, and had major staffing issues. They must pay them min wage and overtime. That is why they are not profitable even with the inflated cruise fares they charge.

[chees]

"ALL staff on cruise ships work very hard. And work long hours. And yes - some are paid much better than others. Spend some time talking to others on the ship and you will see that there is much variability. And it is not as well defined as you might think."

 

Don't you think all workers are entitled to days off? I don't think the sweat shop comparison is off the mark. How many people do you know work 7 days a week for 10 months with no days off?

 

My son in the Navy. When he is deployed he gets to go ashore a few times during his 7 month deployment (as do cruise ship workers) but he works 7 days a week, every week they are gone. And he makes a very low salary because he is enlisted. Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

 

Tina

[Rutland Gate]

Nothing in my experience with Holland America Line supports the allegations made here. We have seen people promoted over the years, eager to look forward to their next contract, and we know many who have retired with enough equity to live well in their native country.

[dadroy]

A couple of comments. On my 14 day Alaska cruise I spent 5+ hours per day in one of the bars, great place to read and a very friendly bartender. This bartender had been with HAL for more than 20 years and loved his job. He had been able to put his 3 kids through college on the money he made by working for HAL. Is he paid what he would make in NY city?? No, but he thought it was adequate compensation.

 

As to paying employees. Whether it be on land or sea, the labor market controls it all. I read a few comments about paying the HAL employees what we pay in our home countries. Makes no sense. If I fly to China, should I expect my hotel room rate to be inflated so that the maids will be paid what they are paid in the US? Of course not. When we cruise the Caribbean, do you feel it necessary to tip a few hundred percent because the waiter in a restaurant makes less than the room steward on our ship? The answers of course are no. If you want to tip extra to make up for the pay difference, feel free. I tip extra for service but do not try to bring HAL employees up to pay standards of western countries.

[BaltiGator]

 

How accepting we have become of injustice.:(

 

Interesting how many people in this thread have agreed with this post. I don't.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't injustice on cruise ships. To be truthful, I don't know. At least the employees LOOK happy, which is more than I can say for the employees at my local grocery store.

 

But when you use a phrase like "how accepting we have become" the implication is that we used to be LESS accepting of injustice. But at least in the good ol' US of A that just ain't so. One hundred years ago (1910) we were WAY more accepting of injustice...to African Americans, to women, to religious minorities, to immigrants, you name it. Two hundred years ago we were INFINITELY more accepting of injustice...to slaves, mainly.

 

Yes there's still plenty of injustice in the world and sadly there probably always will be. But I think as a society we're actually more in tune to it now and somewhat less accepting of it. I think this thread demonstrates precisely that, just by the number of people willing to ask questions about what is fair and what is not fair and what is the right kind of response for people like us (the paying passengers).