HAL's Treatment of Long Time Employees

[galipemi]

Ok, I've watched this thread all day and I just have to chime in.

 

I worked onboard HAL ships as a concessionaire for the better part of two years. Yes, I am Canadian, yes, I was paid more than many crew members. This had more to do with the position I occupied than with my nationality.

 

I won't go in to too much detail, everyone's opinions are pretty clear, whatever they may be, and we are all entitled to our own opions.

 

No cruise ship employee is paid what they're worth. Frankly, even on land most of us don't feel we're making enough.

Would I go back to ships? In a heartbeat.

Are we aware of what we're signing up for ahead of time? Absolutely.

It's laid out in full detail, 7 days a week, an average of 10hrs a day.

 

Every time I am asked about my time on ships or field questions from people who are interested in working onboard I tell them the same thing. It takes a special kind of person to do the job.

 

You have to be willing to work to the point of burn out. And yes, we're all pretty well burned out by the end of a contract. Mine were 6 months, others 4-11months. It doesn't matter, you're tired by the time you're done. But by the time you've been on vacation for 4-6 weeks, you're missing the life and wishing you were back.

 

A crew member does this job for a variety of reasons. Each one is individual. Me, I didn't like the pay (definitely make more on land) but I enjoyed the hours. yes, I enjoy the hours. Maybe not the long days, but my vacation time sure counted for more, and I got what felt like more of it. Although, if you were to count weekends, it all pretty much works out the same.

 

Anyhow, having said all of that (and yes, I'm rambling) - I've worked with people from all walks of life and so many nationalities I can't count anymore. Life onboard is not the hell so many seem to think it is. It's exhausting work, yes, but we know what we're in for and we know what we're doing. I count among my friends so many amazing people that I've met onboard. I've been in the bar, sharing a drink with many of the "poor" crew members from the Phillipines, Indonesia and beyond. And there are very, very few who are upset by the conditions onboard, the pay or their jobs in general. Those that are, don't last more than one contract. After that, they just don't come back.

 

Anyways, I've said my piece. I'll watch some of the responses, but given the way this is going, I think I'll bow out now.

[RuthC]

Ok, I've watched this thread all day and I just have to chime in.

Michelle, thank you for posting a point of view from the other side of the "employees only" door.

[ironin]

Interesting how many people in this thread have agreed with this post. I don't.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't injustice on cruise ships. To be truthful, I don't know. At least the employees LOOK happy, which is more than I can say for the employees at my local grocery store.

 

But when you use a phrase like "how accepting we have become" the implication is that we used to be LESS accepting of injustice. But at least in the good ol' US of A that just ain't so. One hundred years ago (1910) we were WAY more accepting of injustice...to African Americans, to women, to religious minorities, to immigrants, you name it. Two hundred years ago we were INFINITELY more accepting of injustice...to slaves, mainly.

 

Yes there's still plenty of injustice in the world and sadly there probably always will be. But I think as a society we're actually more in tune to it now and somewhat less accepting of it. I think this thread demonstrates precisely that, just by the number of people willing to ask questions about what is fair and what is not fair and what is the right kind of response for people like us (the paying passengers).

 

Ok, I've watched this thread all day and I just have to chime in.

 

I worked onboard HAL ships as a concessionaire for the better part of two years. Yes, I am Canadian, yes, I was paid more than many crew members. This had more to do with the position I occupied than with my nationality.

 

I won't go in to too much detail, everyone's opinions are pretty clear, whatever they may be, and we are all entitled to our own opions.

 

No cruise ship employee is paid what they're worth. Frankly, even on land most of us don't feel we're making enough.

Would I go back to ships? In a heartbeat.

Are we aware of what we're signing up for ahead of time? Absolutely.

It's laid out in full detail, 7 days a week, an average of 10hrs a day.

 

Every time I am asked about my time on ships or field questions from people who are interested in working onboard I tell them the same thing. It takes a special kind of person to do the job.

 

You have to be willing to work to the point of burn out. And yes, we're all pretty well burned out by the end of a contract. Mine were 6 months, others 4-11months. It doesn't matter, you're tired by the time you're done. But by the time you've been on vacation for 4-6 weeks, you're missing the life and wishing you were back.

 

A crew member does this job for a variety of reasons. Each one is individual. Me, I didn't like the pay (definitely make more on land) but I enjoyed the hours. yes, I enjoy the hours. Maybe not the long days, but my vacation time sure counted for more, and I got what felt like more of it. Although, if you were to count weekends, it all pretty much works out the same.

 

Anyhow, having said all of that (and yes, I'm rambling) - I've worked with people from all walks of life and so many nationalities I can't count anymore. Life onboard is not the hell so many seem to think it is. It's exhausting work, yes, but we know what we're in for and we know what we're doing. I count among my friends so many amazing people that I've met onboard. I've been in the bar, sharing a drink with many of the "poor" crew members from the Phillipines, Indonesia and beyond. And there are very, very few who are upset by the conditions onboard, the pay or their jobs in general. Those that are, don't last more than one contract. After that, they just don't come back.

 

Anyways, I've said my piece. I'll watch some of the responses, but given the way this is going, I think I'll bow out now.

 

Thank you both.

[shandryl]

well said! and very true.

 

We could chat about this forever but reality does get in the way. Why do you think Canada brings Jamaicans by the thousands to pick fruits and vegetables in Southern Ontario? Same thing happens so I am told with Mexicans in California. Because people in NA (generally) are not willing to do that kind of work for the pay scale that would be received. And you and I are not willing to pay premium for our veggies - so the system survives. Nor are we for our vacations (and this extends WAY beyond cruise ships...head to an all inclusive somewhere and you will see the same thing - just a different group of people.)

 

Nobody deserves to be treated poorly for what they do for a living. And HAL is not responsible for how a passenger treats a staff person - that is called poor upbringing - which no amount of wealth seems to cure.

[COLLEYBERRY]

Interesting how many people in this thread have agreed with this post. I don't.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't injustice on cruise ships. To be truthful, I don't know. At least the employees LOOK happy, which is more than I can say for the employees at my local grocery store.

 

But when you use a phrase like "how accepting we have become" the implication is that we used to be LESS accepting of injustice. But at least in the good ol' US of A that just ain't so. One hundred years ago (1910) we were WAY more accepting of injustice...to African Americans, to women, to religious minorities, to immigrants, you name it. Two hundred years ago we were INFINITELY more accepting of injustice...to slaves, mainly.

 

Yes there's still plenty of injustice in the world and sadly there probably always will be. But I think as a society we're actually more in tune to it now and somewhat less accepting of it. I think this thread demonstrates precisely that, just by the number of people willing to ask questions about what is fair and what is not fair and what is the right kind of response for people like us (the paying passengers).

 

 

Your points are well made and taken... Certainly many injustices have been righted ... but there are miles to go.:) The "accepting "part of my statement was referring to (my self included) the " that's business" sentiment ( ie cheaper to produce oil when you don't have to build a relief well) or that's the way the world works .

The "have the have not"......It's just easier to be "accepting" when you are one of the haves.

 

I certainly hope the cruise line we all support treat their employees fairly and with respect. Our response, should we find it not to be so,could be to take our business elsewhere.

[oncruisecontrol]

Well they are NOT professionals...just people who work for a living.

 

Smooth sailing to you...

 

 

According to Webster's Universal College Dictionary, the first definition of the word "professional" is, "[a person] following an occupation as a means of livelihood". The second definition is, adj."pertaining to a profession". Also, "a person who is an expert at his or her work". These people may not be professionals in the sense that they are not "business people", but they are professionals in the work that they do, especially if they've been at it for 25 or 30 years.

[jba2]

Just wanted to clear things up. I did not make an assumption regarding working conditions for employees depending on their nationalities. After talking to many crew members, I learned that some had days offs and others didn't and the hours worked per day varied. I spoke to a woman at guest relations (supervisor) to query this practice and she told me that workers sign contracts based on the labour acts from their home countries. Go ahead and rationalize that the workers seem happy if you want. One poster suggested taking the minimum wage in Ontario and multiplying it by the number of hours worked. Why not just reduce their number of hours? And why in the heck would someone say that a worker if given time off probably has nothing to do? Just saying that on a ship that is registered in a wealthy first world nation would have equitable working conditions for all employees. I feel mildly comforted that a few agree with what I have posted while others can continue to justify all they like that things are swell in the cruise line industry.

[IRL_Joanie]

I just got on again to see if this post is still going and am amazed that it IS.

 

Who has proof of many of the things that are being said?:confused::confused::confused:

 

I've had staff tell me how much they LOVE being part of the HAL crew and I've walked by the pizza parties they've been given at night when I've been walking the promenade in a room I'd not seen before (near the stern.) They were having a (well deserved) grand time.

 

As mentioned, people complaining need to show by action that they are truly "what they say".....................by not cruising, not buying most of the clothing available in our stores, not shopping in Dollar Stores, not visiting most "All Inclusinve Resorts," not buying foreign made cars (that would include many "USA made cars" that have their engines and other parts made in other countries.)

 

I was shocked when on a tour to Copper Canyon we drove by a HUGE Electrolux Factory in Chihuahua! The guide told us the workers are picked up from their villages in large buses and that they take showers at work before they begin, etc............. and that they are so thankful for the running water, etc.

 

Look at the labels in whatever you buy...........most of us, including me, are ignorant regarding our products.

 

I'm leaving on a 14 day HAL cruise in six days and am looking forward to everything and I'm not going to feel guilty. Do I tip extra? YES. Do I write lots of positive notes on the provided forms? YES. Do I smile and ask about families at home and treat the staff like humans? YES; they LOVE to speak of their families and homes and countries

And, do I go to the Crew Shows? YES! They are one of my favorite things on HAL. The crew works hard on these and they really enjoy sharing their culture. How's the turnout? VERY poor..............the show is late at night.

I think I can let them know I appreciate this extra work on their part and I let them know that I love learning more about their culture by my attendance.

 

Will I abandon HAL? NO.

 

We were on another big name ship once and we passengers were thinking the food service crew was about to mutiny............NO tables in the buffet were cleaned unless the manager did it. The crew stood around with their arms crossed, defying us to ask for service...........the entire 15 days. No one seemed to be able to get them to work. :( I can't say what country they were from, but it was not the Philippines, Indonesia or the USA........yes, I DO know.

 

Now, I'm going to pack.;)

 

With you 100% on this response!! My stewards on my last HAL cruise had days off!! I know because one of them was with me shopping in Aruba!! (He had 12 hours off to do with as he pleased, as long as he was back on board 1 hour before our Sail Away. BTW, that was 12 working hours. It did not include his regular sleep time.)

 

I have seen the crew in Alaskan Ports sitting with their lap tops at the Internet Cafes and Library sending emails to their families, chatting on their cell phones with friends and family members back home. I have seen them taking tours, just as you and I do. I have seen them happy.

 

We can all feel sorry for these wonderful people who take good care of us. We can all berate the way they are treated in our own eyes, and say how horrible, or you can choose to go vacation somewhere else where the service stinks because the employees just do not have the same standards as do the HAL employees.

 

Me, I prefer to stick where the crew is happy and treats me well. And where I see them interacting with me, the passenger in happy fairly go lucky attitudes.

 

I do not like the thought that, as reeported by the OP, that some employees have been demoted, but that is only a report from the OP. I am not saying it has not happened!! I am just saying, once again, that there are 2 sides to every story and we are only getting one side as reported to the OP by what may have been (if he still has a job after this) a disgruntled Senior Staff member. Heck for all we know, he may have been in the process of being demoted for telling to much to the passengers.... Ya never know.

 

So it comes down to tgis.... If you hate the way you feel the crew is treated, take your money and your feelings away from cruise lines that have these fantastic crew members. Make them suffer even more, because your hard earned money will not be helping them to make a living to support their familes at home.

 

Joanie

[IRL_Joanie]

My son in the Navy. When he is deployed he gets to go ashore a few times during his 7 month deployment (as do cruise ship workers) but he works 7 days a week, every week they are gone. And he makes a very low salary because he is enlisted. Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

 

Tina

 

God Bless your son!!! And you also. But your son and all our military especially!!

 

Yours is an excellent point!! As a matter of fact, your son and all our military (lowere ranking at least) make far less than a cruise ship employee!!! They do not make extra money on tips every week. They do not get to work 7 - 10 days and the take a day off to go sightseeing or just kick back and relax. They do not get to spend only 3-10 months seeing the world and then have the luxury of going home to see their family. They are there for a minimum of 12 months, some up to 3 years, depending on where they are stationed. They are (at this time) mainly in war torn situations risking their lives so people like those of us on this forum can complain about injustice...

 

I know!! I spent 24 years married to the military. I have a daughter who was in the military for 14 years before having to be medicaled out. I have a son in law who was also in the military. I KNOW!!!

 

God Bless our Military and their families!!!

 

Joanie

[IRL_Joanie]

Ok, I've watched this thread all day and I just have to chime in.

 

I worked onboard HAL ships as a concessionaire for the better part of two years. Yes, I am Canadian, yes, I was paid more than many crew members. This had more to do with the position I occupied than with my nationality.

 

I won't go in to too much detail, everyone's opinions are pretty clear, whatever they may be, and we are all entitled to our own opions.

 

No cruise ship employee is paid what they're worth. Frankly, even on land most of us don't feel we're making enough.

Would I go back to ships? In a heartbeat.

Are we aware of what we're signing up for ahead of time? Absolutely.

It's laid out in full detail, 7 days a week, an average of 10hrs a day.

 

Every time I am asked about my time on ships or field questions from people who are interested in working onboard I tell them the same thing. It takes a special kind of person to do the job.

 

You have to be willing to work to the point of burn out. And yes, we're all pretty well burned out by the end of a contract. Mine were 6 months, others 4-11months. It doesn't matter, you're tired by the time you're done. But by the time you've been on vacation for 4-6 weeks, you're missing the life and wishing you were back.

 

A crew member does this job for a variety of reasons. Each one is individual. Me, I didn't like the pay (definitely make more on land) but I enjoyed the hours. yes, I enjoy the hours. Maybe not the long days, but my vacation time sure counted for more, and I got what felt like more of it. Although, if you were to count weekends, it all pretty much works out the same.

 

Anyhow, having said all of that (and yes, I'm rambling) - I've worked with people from all walks of life and so many nationalities I can't count anymore. Life onboard is not the hell so many seem to think it is. It's exhausting work, yes, but we know what we're in for and we know what we're doing. I count among my friends so many amazing people that I've met onboard. I've been in the bar, sharing a drink with many of the "poor" crew members from the Phillipines, Indonesia and beyond. And there are very, very few who are upset by the conditions onboard, the pay or their jobs in general. Those that are, don't last more than one contract. After that, they just don't come back.

 

Anyways, I've said my piece. I'll watch some of the responses, but given the way this is going, I think I'll bow out now.

 

All I can say is THANK YOU MICHELLE!!!

 

Joanie

[world~citizen]

According to Webster's Universal College Dictionary, the first definition of the word "professional" is, "[a person] following an occupation as a means of livelihood". The second definition is, adj."pertaining to a profession". Also, "a person who is an expert at his or her work". These people may not be professionals in the sense that they are not "business people", but they are professionals in the work that they do, especially if they've been at it for 25 or 30 years.

 

I think "pertaining to a profession" is reasonable. Otherwise we will have professional toilet attendants. Not to speak ill of toilet attendants, but cast the definition wide enough and no one isn't a professional. The term loses its utility.

 

My (all too long) experience with the term suggests someone who has undergone and graduated from a professional course of study with a curriculum certified by a professional association. The graduate will then either article or undergo an internship leading to passing a certification exam by that professional association, which sets a code of ethics and standards by which he/she must adhere to over the course of their career. The professional association is also his/her regulatory body.

 

In other words...MD's, lawyers, chartered accountants, engineers, architects etc.

 

That is my experience and understanding and it is that definition I had in mind.

 

Of course today we have "professional" car salesmen and clerks and customer relations representatives.

 

Cast the definition in this way, and it loses substance.

 

But what the heck, right?:)

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[Middle Aged and Happy]

For those who think individuals are so poorly treated, you should not cruise on HAL or any other ship. You should not ever travel outside of North America or Western Europe. Then you can sleep at night.

 

You can complain all you want but in the end the question is whether the consumer will pay for the product. Will the consumer pay for the same product if it is three times the cost? I doubt it.

 

For me, people seem happy and appreciative for the jobs. No one looks like they are missing a meal. Most indicate that they make a good living and that getting a job on a ship is very competitive.

 

Again for those who have problems - either don't go on the cruise at all or if you decide to do so, take and extra $2,000 - $3,000 and hand out money. I'm sure it would very much be appreciated by your servers and your conscience would be clear.

 

Trust me, we have worse jobs right here in the US. And kudos to the poster that discussed conditions on a Navy ship. It makes the cruise ship working conditions look like a walk in the park.

[Maasdam]

I must take the side of Holland America Line. As they are one of the view lines who have quite good work conditions fore there crew. I have two friends working fore them One friend is Provision Master a/b the Nieuw Amsterdam his partner she's part of the Shore Excursion staff a/b the Noordam. I spent many times as guest of them on board and never encounter any what said. Yes they work hard Yes there payment is not up to shore standards fore most of the crew. But always much better then there counter parts in the Philippine and Indonesia. They serve long contracts and long hours, but they have day's of and free time (they have to comply to Dutch law) The majority of crew are better of with HAL then many of the competitors.

 

Do you want to improve work condition my advice be polite to the crew treat them as you wanted to be treed and do not go over the edge when something is not going as you thought it must go. I have seen to many time that passengers treat the crew in a bad manner.

 

Ben.

[world~citizen]

Interesting how many people in this thread have agreed with this post. I don't.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't injustice on cruise ships. To be truthful, I don't know. At least the employees LOOK happy, which is more than I can say for the employees at my local grocery store.

 

But when you use a phrase like "how accepting we have become" the implication is that we used to be LESS accepting of injustice. But at least in the good ol' US of A that just ain't so. One hundred years ago (1910) we were WAY more accepting of injustice...to African Americans, to women, to religious minorities, to immigrants, you name it. Two hundred years ago we were INFINITELY more accepting of injustice...to slaves, mainly.

 

Yes there's still plenty of injustice in the world and sadly there probably always will be. But I think as a society we're actually more in tune to it now and somewhat less accepting of it. I think this thread demonstrates precisely that, just by the number of people willing to ask questions about what is fair and what is not fair and what is the right kind of response for people like us (the paying passengers).

 

Interesting post.

 

There is quite a lot of information over the net with respect to working conditions of cruise line employees if you care to look into it. I found it enlightening. It is mostly generic and doesn't often reference a specific line or company though.

 

As to the much broader statement that we are less accepting of injustice, well that is a good subject for a panel discussion.:) From the financial crisis and the way it has been handled, to the Patriot Act, and a whole host of broad political initiatives, I would have say the verdict is out on that one.

 

I have a thought though that if we can justify the working conditions such as those respecting cruise line employees, how long before they come to a job near us?

 

Maybe it is out of my own selfishness for the welfare of the North American family that I am not happy with people working in difficult or sweatshop conditions anywhere, be it Taiwan, China, Thailand or...on cruise ships.

 

For that reason, the post you reference resonates with me.:)

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[world~citizen]

... And kudos to the poster that discussed conditions on a Navy ship. It makes the cruise ship working conditions look like a walk in the park.

 

Apparently, not if you get sick.:eek:

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[European_CruiseGirl]

Suppose I have to add a couple of words myself.

 

I'm not going to debate the issue of salary - do the crew get enough or is it fair. I honestly don't know.

 

However what made me feel bad was the fact that some individuals had been demoted. :(

 

I just know how I would feel if after my summer holiday I'd go back to work and would be said "nice to have you back, you have been doing a great job but now you don't work as an accountant anymore, instead you will be an secretary with the main responsibility of making coffee for the accountant team. But look at the bright side - you still have a job". Yes of course a job is important but given the fact that I have 15+ years experience in what I do it would hurt like hell if I'd be demoted. Most likely I would try to find a new employer asap. Wouldn't the most of us? And I'm sure the companies know this. This would be an easy way to get rid of people you don't want to have anymore.

 

Now of course (as someone already said) we do not know what really had happened to those individuals who had been demoted. Perhaps there were good reasons for that (other than trying to get rid of them).

 

But I truly have to say that I do understand how a crew member would feel absolutely terrible being demoted (if it wouldn't have been due to his own actions). He had been building his expertise for 20-30+ years on HAL and most likely done an excellent job (as HAL had given him always a new contract) but this is how he's rewarded. Not nice. I also am wondering what had happened to his salary? Most likely it had also been reduced to match the new position.

[babyher]

Interesting how many people in this thread have agreed with this post. I don't.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't injustice on cruise ships. To be truthful, I don't know. At least the employees LOOK happy, which is more than I can say for the employees at my local grocery store.

 

But when you use a phrase like "how accepting we have become" the implication is that we used to be LESS accepting of injustice. But at least in the good ol' US of A that just ain't so. One hundred years ago (1910) we were WAY more accepting of injustice...to African Americans, to women, to religious minorities, to immigrants, you name it. Two hundred years ago we were INFINITELY more accepting of injustice...to slaves, mainly.

 

 

 

Yes there's still plenty of injustice in the world and sadly there probably always will be. But I think as a society we're actually more in tune to it now and somewhat less accepting of it. I think this thread demonstrates precisely that, just by the number of people willing to ask questions about what is fair and what is not fair and what is the right kind of response for people like us (the paying passengers).

 

Excellent post , and yes I was one of the people who agreed with Colleyberry :)

 

You said very eloquently something I always think about when the subjects here get to "this generation has no class or common sense or courtesy" or "In my day we would never have done this " Or "We knew better than to do this "

 

All well and good that back then you were raised to tip your hat to a lady, and stand when a woman arrives or leaves a room, and take your cap off at the dining table , and wear apropriate dress in the appropriate dining room . But if there is a big sign at the front door of that dininroom that says "(NO This race or That nationality allowed) then the "Aren't we civilized" act going of inside is pretty much just that ...an act.

[soldham]

Just wanted to clear things up. I did not make an assumption regarding working conditions for employees depending on their nationalities. After talking to many crew members, I learned that some had days offs and others didn't and the hours worked per day varied. I spoke to a woman at guest relations (supervisor) to query this practice and she told me that workers sign contracts based on the labour acts from their home countries. Go ahead and rationalize that the workers seem happy if you want. One poster suggested taking the minimum wage in Ontario and multiplying it by the number of hours worked. Why not just reduce their number of hours? And why in the heck would someone say that a worker if given time off probably has nothing to do? Just saying that on a ship that is registered in a wealthy first world nation would have equitable working conditions for all employees. I feel mildly comforted that a few agree with what I have posted while others can continue to justify all they like that things are swell in the cruise line industry.

 

Geez - if I lived in Toronto I would get a higher wage for the same job as I do in London as a general rule. SOCIAL INJUSTICE? No - cost of living disparities. Pretty simple concept and just as applicable to staff from other countries on a cruise ship or at a resort.

[lilipad2]

I worked for a cruise line years ago in hotel manning. Is it unfair that crew members are not paid US wages (or in this case, Dutch wages)? It would be great if they could, but is it unfair? Hardly. Crew members are paid a fairly decent wage by their country's standard -- especially when you factor in tips. These are actually highly sought jobs in their home countries but as galipemi writes, they are not for everyone. Plus, nobody holds a gun to anyone's head when signing the contract. If the wages were just so awful and the terms just so unfair, HAL would not be able to get anyone to work onboard.

 

As far as people being professionals, I would argue this is just not true. We would recieve hundreds of resumes from people who had college degrees and who worked in fields we would consider professional -- teaching, nursing, etc. Also, there are schools specificaly for those who want to work in the hospitality industry. I think it's really demeaning to look at crew members as anything but professional.

 

Again, I would say that these individuals deserve our respect and courtesy while on board no matter what nationality. They work really hard for their money.

[BaltiGator]

Excellent post , and yes I was one of the people who agreed with Colleyberry :)

 

You said very eloquently something I always think about when the subjects here get to "this generation has no class or common sense or courtesy" or "In my day we would never have done this " Or "We knew better than to do this "

 

All well and good that back then you were raised to tip your hat to a lady, and stand when a woman arrives or leaves a room, and take your cap off at the dining table , and wear apropriate dress in the appropriate dining room . But if there is a big sign at the front door of that dininroom that says "(NO This race or That nationality allowed) then the "Aren't we civilized" act going of inside is pretty much just that ...an act.

 

Thank you for your kind words and excellent reply!

 

There's an old quote attributed to Socrates. The real source is probably much more recent, but the words are still at least 100 years old...

 

The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

You're absolutely right. Some people grumble all the time about the "good old days" as if that was really the case. Sometimes I challenge such people. I'll say something like, do you mean the good old days when African Americans had to sit at the back of the bus and use separate facilities? Or do you mean the good really old days when women couldn't vote? Or do you mean the good really, really old days when slavery was legal?

 

Change is hard, and harder for some. It happens regardless. Some things change for the better. Other things not so much. No one gets to pick and choose.

 

When people around here lament the lack of participation in formal nights, some of them refer to the "good old days" when people did exactly the things you mentioned - took off their hat indoors, stood up for a lady, and so on. Big deal. There was also a sign outside, or maybe no sign just an understanding, that no blacks were allowed. And no Asians. And no Jews. Good old days my butt. People were terribly disrespected. On the other hand you cannot disrespect another person just by wearing a cap inside. They can choose to feel disrespected by such a trivial matter, but that's only in their own mind.

 

So as not to hijack this thread any further, my original point was that most of us don't know for sure if the conditions on cruise ships are really so bad, but if they are, at least there's some awareness of the problem. There are probably still many "sweat shops" out there in the world, but I think there are far fewer than 25 years ago.

 

Personally I'm content to live in a world with fewer formal nights and more tolerance. I do hope the cruise line employees are treated reasonably well. As I said in my other post, at least they appear content. Lots of American employees in low-paying positions look miserable by comparison.

[babyher]

Thank you for your kind words and excellent reply!

 

There's an old quote attributed to Socrates. The real source is probably much more recent, but the words are still at least 100 years old...

 

The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

 

You're absolutely right. Some people grumble all the time about the "good old days" as if that was really the case. Sometimes I challenge such people. I'll say something like, do you mean the good old days when African Americans had to sit at the back of the bus and use separate facilities? Or do you mean the good really old days when women couldn't vote? Or do you mean the good really, really old days when slavery was legal?

 

Change is hard, and harder for some. It happens regardless. Some things change for the better. Other things not so much. No one gets to pick and choose.

 

When people around here lament the lack of participation in formal nights, some of them refer to the "good old days" when people did exactly the things you mentioned - took off their hat indoors, stood up for a lady, and so on. Big deal. There was also a sign outside, or maybe no sign just an understanding, that no blacks were allowed. And no Asians. And no Jews. Good old days my butt. People were terribly disrespected. On the other hand you cannot disrespect another person just by wearing a cap inside. They can choose to feel disrespected by such a trivial matter, but that's only in their own mind.

 

So as not to hijack this thread any further, my original point was that most of us don't know for sure if the conditions on cruise ships are really so bad, but if they are, at least there's some awareness of the problem. There are probably still many "sweat shops" out there in the world, but I think there are far fewer than 25 years ago.

 

Personally I'm content to live in a world with fewer formal nights and more tolerance. I do hope the cruise line employees are treated reasonably well. As I said in my other post, at least they appear content. Lots of American employees in low-paying positions look miserable by comparison.

 

I thank you again for your kind words (some mutual admiration society we have going on here *LOL :))

 

 

But seriously , a few years ago I wrote a post very similar to yours and the past injustices and was FLAMMMED!!!!!!!! I mean I need SPF 20.000 *LOL*

 

 

Of course most people just took my post WAYYYYYYYYYYYY to the extreme of what I meant and flammed me for calling people who followed the dress code ****'s and insinuating only black people who t shirts in the MDR.

 

These people read wayyyyyyy too much into what I wrote (plus the post was kind of a volley fired back at one of the beloved icons of these boards so I was doomed from the start:))

 

Just want to say I have been enjoying your posts very much , and I know I am not the only one .

[soldham]

Thank you for your kind words and excellent reply!

 

There's an old quote attributed to Socrates. The real source is probably much more recent, but the words are still at least 100 years old...

 

The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.

 

You're absolutely right. Some people grumble all the time about the "good old days" as if that was really the case. Sometimes I challenge such people. I'll say something like, do you mean the good old days when African Americans had to sit at the back of the bus and use separate facilities? Or do you mean the good really old days when women couldn't vote? Or do you mean the good really, really old days when slavery was legal?

 

Change is hard, and harder for some. It happens regardless. Some things change for the better. Other things not so much. No one gets to pick and choose.

 

When people around here lament the lack of participation in formal nights, some of them refer to the "good old days" when people did exactly the things you mentioned - took off their hat indoors, stood up for a lady, and so on. Big deal. There was also a sign outside, or maybe no sign just an understanding, that no blacks were allowed. And no Asians. And no Jews. Good old days my butt. People were terribly disrespected. On the other hand you cannot disrespect another person just by wearing a cap inside. They can choose to feel disrespected by such a trivial matter, but that's only in their own mind.

 

So as not to hijack this thread any further, my original point was that most of us don't know for sure if the conditions on cruise ships are really so bad, but if they are, at least there's some awareness of the problem. There are probably still many "sweat shops" out there in the world, but I think there are far fewer than 25 years ago.

 

Personally I'm content to live in a world with fewer formal nights and more tolerance. I do hope the cruise line employees are treated reasonably well. As I said in my other post, at least they appear content. Lots of American employees in low-paying positions look miserable by comparison.

 

I am hardly old - in fact I am not yet middle aged but there are a few things that IMO are just not OK:

- Men wearing baseball hats at dinner

- Spitting on the street

- Swearing out loud in public

- Not holding a door for ANYONE if you are right there

 

Those are just a few examples. To me some things are done out of respect for others sensibilities not mine - especially my elders that may have been brought up differently.

[world~citizen]

...I do hope the cruise line employees are treated reasonably well. As I said in my other post, at least they appear content....

 

Hope springs eternal... :eek:

 

Here is an article that is a good primer for the subject:

 

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/ot.html

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[ANSalberg]

If YOU wish to "Make a difference" in someone's life, then look to your own attitude.

LEARN to say "Please" and "Thank You"

Smile 'KINDLY" when someone does something nice for you- whether they are assigned to YOU or not.

Don't act like a jerk if the coffee isn't hot enough for you or your bed isn't made 10 minutes after you got out of it.

Be on time -if it is dinner, if youare asked "Can I make up the room now?" , if you are going to a M& G......polite means EVERYBODY.

PLEASE.....THANK YOU.....SMILE.....KINDNESS.....at least THAT will be different than MANY of our HARD working crew get NOW!

Anne

[IRL_Joanie]

I must take the side of Holland America Line. As they are one of the view lines who have quite good work conditions fore there crew. I have two friends working fore them One friend is Provision Master a/b the Nieuw Amsterdam his partner she's part of the Shore Excursion staff a/b the Noordam. I spent many times as guest of them on board and never encounter any what said. Yes they work hard Yes there payment is not up to shore standards fore most of the crew. But always much better then there counter parts in the Philippine and Indonesia. They serve long contracts and long hours, but they have day's of and free time (they have to comply to Dutch law) The majority of crew are better of with HAL then many of the competitors.

 

Do you want to improve work condition my advice be polite to the crew treat them as you wanted to be treed and do not go over the edge when something is not going as you thought it must go. I have seen to many time that passengers treat the crew in a bad manner.

 

Ben.

 

Amen Ben and ANSalberg!!

 

Joanie