HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?

[Nasmas]

The peace & quite are the reason we sail and with HAL we don't have to worry about being bothered with a lot of partiers. It is peaceful and quite. I've read that there's nothing to do. That doesn't bother us at all. We have plenty to do at home. We like good food, which we usually find. Maybe its not 5 star dining, but we're not paying 250-300 for a meal either. The Tamarind on the Eurodam is beautiful. The food is a little spicy for me but I'd pay them just to sit up there. The Italian place was also very good. Plus, the Pinnacle. For $20 you can't beat it.

[Gamelan1971]

Greetings- I went on a cruise this past winter with Holland America from Singapore to Hong Kong. We generally had a great cruise, but I did notice some aspects of the quality experience I remembered from previously cruising were slipping. The principal one of these being staff- for the first time, I noticed disinterested staff, particularly in the Main Dining Room.

 

But what disturbed me most was noting the number of passengers who had purchased inside cabins (but may have been upgraded), but then purchased almost nothing on the ship. And then expected to have a premium experience. When the ships don't make any money off of these passengers, how does the experience stay excellent and top notch?

[pirate cruiser]

Why dont you mass market haters buy your own yacht-then you wont have to deal with the lowest common denominator-IMO the lcd's get weeded out anyway-cruising is not for everyone. (not trying to offend btw).

[swedish weave]

Greetings- I went on a cruise this past winter with Holland America from Singapore to Hong Kong. We generally had a great cruise, but I did notice some aspects of the quality experience I remembered from previously cruising were slipping. The principal one of these being staff- for the first time, I noticed disinterested staff, particularly in the Main Dining Room.

 

But what disturbed me most was noting the number of passengers who had purchased inside cabins (but may have been upgraded), but then purchased almost nothing on the ship. And then expected to have a premium experience. When the ships don't make any money off of these passengers, how does the experience stay excellent and top notch?

 

I am curious how you determined what type of cabin others booked and how much they spent on the cruise. I always thought this was confidential information. Did someone at HAL furnish you the info on other cruisers?

[Rotterdam]

the so called good old days....I was young & my family took cruises often since the 1960's out of NYC. WE could choose from many lines - some great some not so...our favorites were the Italian & Home Lines and Holland America.

 

Back then the food & service was 4 star and passengers rose to the occasion in every way. It was an elegant experience - start to finish. We never brought on liquor - we had cockatils, wine w/ dinner and danced & drank in the nite clubs almost every evening - we were not such great partiers but the entertainment was that great. One nite on the Rotterdam V Shirley Bassey had the place going crazy -singing , dancing...the sun was coming up when we headed back to our staterooms still in gowns & black tie.

 

Through the 1980's we continued to sail w/ HAL even after Carnivire took over. From the start the crew & officers were not happy. And it wasn't just HAL = Cunard w/ the beloved QE2 was being short changed left & right. Not only was service levels cut & food offerings comprimised but maintainence was not kept up to the levels the ships necessitated. New ships just don't magically appear in no time & costs must be met.....interesting enough CCL has recently announced a multi million dollar program dedicated to ships maintainence & yet are backing away from the Costa Concordia Captain saying CCL is not responsible for their captains actions!

 

Some people say w/o CCL $$$ some of these lines would not be in existance today...well I say I would of rather seen them go w/ some dignity than have CCL take control.

 

The last time I was on a HAL ship was 3 years ago on the NYC - Bermuda run on the Veendam. I can't count the # of times I've done this trip over the years,,,docking in FRont St is wonderful...Bermuda is a gem. The ship was so disappointing....worn soft goods, bad entertainment, the aft pool removed so additional cabins could be put in, the diningroom ceiling had netting placed over it because the nurano glass fixtures were falling.....maintainance!!!!!! We tend to ead ashore a great deal to experience local food - but we were so disappointed in the quallity of the food onboard we avoided it at any cost. Staff use to be 1 for every 2 passengers - w/ CCL reductions the staff neeed roller blades to keep up.

 

The year before I took a Transatlantic on the Prinsendam - a wonderful engineering design...tehn too the shortage of staff & lack of quality in food onboard was a disappointment.

 

So we do not sail as often as we did before - yes the rates are ridiculouly low - you get what you pay for...we are taking more land vacations now & avoid CCL lines & ships at all costs.....

 

so those of you that do enjoy what you are experiencing onboard CCL ships - fine - but please know you have no idea what people like myself are talking about and why CCL is not a good thing in our books.

[Rotterdam]

I'm sure HAL & CCL reps read these- -I am not looking to go back to the 1980's, etc but if there is a line that we thought had a quality that we'd enjoy then we are back to sea - we are in the 50-60 age range now, w/ lots of disposable income - no kids.......Oceania is looking good. Contemporary hotels such as Ritz Carlton & Four Seasons get our business.....

 

Seabourn isn't cutting it...so HAL could you come up w/ a smaller ship w/ quality service levels & food ala Oceania??????(we tried Azamara - it was ok but again the bean counters from RCCL were evident).

[Yodalicious]

DH and I are in our 50's. no kids, no grandkids. HAL is perfect for us. Few kids, few tee shirts at dinner, relaxing, upscale, but not uptight :)

[Wakepatrol]

the so called good old days....I was young & my family took cruises often since the 1960's out of NYC. WE could choose from many lines - some great some not so...our favorites were the Italian & Home Lines and Holland America.

 

Back then the food & service was 4 star and passengers rose to the occasion in every way. It was an elegant experience - start to finish. We never brought on liquor - we had cockatils, wine w/ dinner and danced & drank in the nite clubs almost every evening - we were not such great partiers but the entertainment was that great. One nite on the Rotterdam V Shirley Bassey had the place going crazy -singing , dancing...the sun was coming up when we headed back to our staterooms still in gowns & black tie.

 

Through the 1980's we continued to sail w/ HAL even after Carnivire took over. From the start the crew & officers were not happy. And it wasn't just HAL = Cunard w/ the beloved QE2 was being short changed left & right. Not only was service levels cut & food offerings comprimised but maintainence was not kept up to the levels the ships necessitated. New ships just don't magically appear in no time & costs must be met.....interesting enough CCL has recently announced a multi million dollar program dedicated to ships maintainence & yet are backing away from the Costa Concordia Captain saying CCL is not responsible for their captains actions!

 

Some people say w/o CCL $$$ some of these lines would not be in existance today...well I say I would of rather seen them go w/ some dignity than have CCL take control.

 

The last time I was on a HAL ship was 3 years ago on the NYC - Bermuda run on the Veendam. I can't count the # of times I've done this trip over the years,,,docking in FRont St is wonderful...Bermuda is a gem. The ship was so disappointing....worn soft goods, bad entertainment, the aft pool removed so additional cabins could be put in, the diningroom ceiling had netting placed over it because the nurano glass fixtures were falling.....maintainance!!!!!! We tend to ead ashore a great deal to experience local food - but we were so disappointed in the quallity of the food onboard we avoided it at any cost. Staff use to be 1 for every 2 passengers - w/ CCL reductions the staff neeed roller blades to keep up.

 

The year before I took a Transatlantic on the Prinsendam - a wonderful engineering design...tehn too the shortage of staff & lack of quality in food onboard was a disappointment.

 

So we do not sail as often as we did before - yes the rates are ridiculouly low - you get what you pay for...we are taking more land vacations now & avoid CCL lines & ships at all costs.....

 

so those of you that do enjoy what you are experiencing onboard CCL ships - fine - but please know you have no idea what people like myself are talking about and why CCL is not a good thing in our books.

 

It must be really sad to see such an erosion of what it once was. My buddy was a cruise director on Holland America in the 70's. I show him these threads and he just shakes his head. People bringing their own provisions ie soda water,showing up to the dining room dressed like a bum. The guy at the door would simply say "Sir You Can't Come In Here Dressed Like That" yes sadly enough the guy at the door has also vanished.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Wakepatrol

[startwin]

It must be really sad to see such an erosion of what it once was. My buddy was a cruise director on Holland America in the 70's. I show him these threads and he just shakes his head. People bringing their own provisions ie soda water,showing up to the dining room dressed like a bum. The guy at the door would simply say "Sir You Can't Come In Here Dressed Like That" yes sadly enough the guy at the door has also vanished.

 

So it's really not the cruise line deteriorating.... it's the other passengers. Dear oh dear.

 

I sometimes wonder why you cruise at all as you meet so many "schleps" on board ships (your word), people who dare to bring on sodas and wine when they are allowed to, and people who have the audacity to not spend as much money on board as you think they should (though I'm not sure how you know how much money they spend). And on top of that, they don`t dress right:rolleyes: I`m glad my cruises aren`t like yours.:D

[kjw869]

So it's really not the cruise line deteriorating.... it's the other passengers. Dear oh dear.

 

I sometimes wonder why you cruise at all as you meet so many "schleps" on board ships (your word), people who dare to bring on sodas and wine when they are allowed to, and people who have the audacity to not spend as much money on board as you think they should (though I'm not sure how you know how much money they spend). And on top of that, they don`t dress right:rolleyes: I`m glad my cruises aren`t like yours.:D

 

Ditto on your thoughts. I wonder how these posters feel about the airlines in this day and age. I'm in my mid 60s, and remember airline passengers were dressed to the nines. The airlines provided great meals served on china and real "silverware". Then after dinner for those who wanted them, they provided a 5-pack of cigarettes for them to enjoy.

 

Also provided were games for the kids, and if you wanted to play cards, they gave you a deck of cards to keep.

 

Everything changes, some just have a hard time accepting these changes.

[pms4104]

Resurrection alert ... this thread is nearly 2-1/2 years old

Edited April 22, 2013 by pms4104

[swedish weave]

the so called good old days....I was young & my family took cruises often since the 1960's out of NYC. WE could choose from many lines - some great some not so...our favorites were the Italian & Home Lines and Holland America.

 

Back then the food & service was 4 star and passengers rose to the occasion in every way. It was an elegant experience - start to finish. We never brought on liquor - we had cockatils, wine w/ dinner and danced & drank in the nite clubs almost every evening - we were not such great partiers but the entertainment was that great. One nite on the Rotterdam V Shirley Bassey had the place going crazy -singing , dancing...the sun was coming up when we headed back to our staterooms still in gowns & black tie.

 

Through the 1980's we continued to sail w/ HAL even after Carnivire took over. From the start the crew & officers were not happy. And it wasn't just HAL = Cunard w/ the beloved QE2 was being short changed left & right. Not only was service levels cut & food offerings comprimised but maintainence was not kept up to the levels the ships necessitated. New ships just don't magically appear in no time & costs must be met.....interesting enough CCL has recently announced a multi million dollar program dedicated to ships maintainence & yet are backing away from the Costa Concordia Captain saying CCL is not responsible for their captains actions!

 

Some people say w/o CCL $$$ some of these lines would not be in existance today...well I say I would of rather seen them go w/ some dignity than have CCL take control.

 

The last time I was on a HAL ship was 3 years ago on the NYC - Bermuda run on the Veendam. I can't count the # of times I've done this trip over the years,,,docking in FRont St is wonderful...Bermuda is a gem. The ship was so disappointing....worn soft goods, bad entertainment, the aft pool removed so additional cabins could be put in, the diningroom ceiling had netting placed over it because the nurano glass fixtures were falling.....maintainance!!!!!! We tend to ead ashore a great deal to experience local food - but we were so disappointed in the quallity of the food onboard we avoided it at any cost. Staff use to be 1 for every 2 passengers - w/ CCL reductions the staff neeed roller blades to keep up.

 

The year before I took a Transatlantic on the Prinsendam - a wonderful engineering design...tehn too the shortage of staff & lack of quality in food onboard was a disappointment.

 

So we do not sail as often as we did before - yes the rates are ridiculouly low - you get what you pay for...we are taking more land vacations now & avoid CCL lines & ships at all costs.....

 

so those of you that do enjoy what you are experiencing onboard CCL ships - fine - but please know you have no idea what people like myself are talking about and why CCL is not a good thing in our books.

 

Your comments are accurate, however, the pool of people who relish the memories of the past is shrinking. The younger group who are replacing them (AKA us) do not want the rules and stiffness of the past. therefore, HAL and many of the other mainstream cruise lines have changed their targets and are catering to the wishes of the "new" group. They want fair prices and fun !!

 

I take exception to the comment that the cruise line should have been allowed to fade away with dignity. CCL has kept the line available for us to enjoy.

 

It is better to bend than to break.

Edited April 22, 2013 by swedish weave

[swedish weave]

Resurrection alert ... this thread is 2 years old

 

Someone saw fit to bring it back up for discussion. Join in if you desire.

[sail7seas]

Someone saw fit to bring it back up for discussion. Join in if you desire.

 

 

Thank you.

I wondered if there was some reason the conversation could not appropriaely be brought forward for anyone who wished to contribute to do so.

 

What does it matter how long it ago it was started? :confused:

 

[pms4104]

Someone saw fit to bring it back up for discussion. Join in if you desire.

 

Thank you.

I wondered if there was some reason the conversation could not appropriaely be brought forward for anyone who wished to contribute to do so.

 

What does it matter how long it ago it was started? :confused:

 

You both are correct ... please excuse my comment. Some older threads have no-longer-valid info ... this one, however, is timeless.

[VallyD]

No whey... well, maybe the idiot who drops a stern anchor. ;)

 

 

I keep seeing this mentioned? What is the story behind this? (sorry offtopic)

[Gamelan1971]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I resurrected the thread because HAL is a line many of us on this board enjoy cruising and after having discussions with many people on my last cruise about cost cutting measures and the noticeable slide in standards, I did some searching yesterday and came across this thread. While more than two years old, I think resurrecting it again allows us to reflect on what many have been discussing already as well as a chance to comment on where things stand now.

 

On the last cruise I took, I met more than one person (about five people) who had originally purchased an interior cabin- I'd say 3/5 of these were upgraded to Ocean View. What was also striking was that this group of people, without exception, did not purchase shore excursions (or purchased only the transfers into town), did not purchase drinks from the bar, and did not purchase treatments from the spa. And in one case, made grudging comments about the hotel service charge.

 

One of our dining companions noticed the same trend, and he commented on how the inside cabins are often sold at cost. And noticing that this group of passengers were not buying anything on board, I realized that HAL was probably taking a bath on them. So it begs the question, if the company is filling the ships with increasing numbers of these passengers, how can the company make enough money to continue to provide a consistent standard of service?

 

I'm not attempting to begrudge anyone their desire to vacation on a strict budget- I understand that. But what I found ironic in one case of the group of five that I referred to was that the passenger expressed disappointment that organic jams and jellies were not available on the ship. Made me wonder, how people expect to have their cake and eat it too (cheap cruise with expensive amenities)? I guess if I had paid cost for a cabin and not purchased anything on the ship, I wouldn't expect organic jams/jellies.

 

So it would seem that many people want a high level of quality but not everyone is willing to pay for it. It would seem to me that at some point HAL needs to decide how they are going to distinguish themselves in the marketplace, in order to ensure healthy profits and margins with which to provide a good standard of excellence.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Gamelan1971

[Wakepatrol]

So it's really not the cruise line deteriorating.... it's the other passengers. Dear oh dear.

 

I sometimes wonder why you cruise at all as you meet so many "schleps" on board ships (your word), people who dare to bring on sodas and wine when they are allowed to, and people who have the audacity to not spend as much money on board as you think they should (though I'm not sure how you know how much money they spend). And on top of that, they don`t dress right:rolleyes: I`m glad my cruises aren`t like yours.:D

 

 

Have fun with that:)

[Minoushka]

I have been on most main stream cruise lines so I do have basis for comparison . celebrity and Hal do toot their own horn claimimg to be upscale and somewhat exclusive ...Nah to both in my books . iMO the pax on Celebrity are snobs who know little of. Anything else yet comment negatively on other cruise lines . Trust me most cruise lines follow the same basic pattern . Cabins are about the same size and service is just as good on any ...I cannot claimone isbetter thanthe other

The only cruise line I actually didfind quality superior was Qm2....cabins were bigger,food definitely more elegant ,shows amazing ....no other company comes close to all 3 however Epics shows are top knotch

some Princess dinners wonderful as with Celebrity

no one makes an outdoor bbq like HA l nor a brunch like Celebrity

So it is hard to get everything from one company ...but I do find this summer prices are. Way up there tryingto convince everyone quality is following ...not sure about that yet ....same stuff ...higher price

People have to realize there is a lot less vacation cash out there ...raising prices at this time may not be the wisest move .perhaps once the econmies improve these hikes could be justified...now .i do not believe. So . I also think timimgfor new ships is not on target of the economic reality ...how the heck are they goingto fill up more ships when so many are not right now ??

True new itineraries wouldhelp ...alot .....bringing shipsbackhere in summer might do ittoo

Too manyin Europe ...not enough takers because of airfare and high prices and Europe ingeneral beingvery pricey .I.m not goingthis yearbecause of that .even if cruises go down air is ridiculous ...and once there hotelsfood and transportation can makethese precruisestays very expensive

i think they should bring coastal cruises up and down Atlantic and Pacific coasts That could be a nice alternative

[sail7seas]

I keep seeing this mentioned? What is the story behind this? (sorry offtopic)

 

 

All I did was google to get many links.

 

I am the absolute worse researcher but I only entered:

"Ryndam, passenger dropped anchor" and whammo...... a ton of links. :)

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/30/passenger.drops.cruise.anchor/index.html

 

[NickCDN]

Interesting FACT

 

The Zuiderdam is supposed to have 815 staff for 1900 passengers (based on 2 in each room). On my recent sailing, the cruise log that they distribute at the end of cruise confirmed staff cutting as only 650 were aboard for this cruise even though all cabins (as per the captain) were sold and filled. This also does not account for the fact that some cabins had more than 2 people in them (as our groups did as we had kids with us).

 

Nick

[sail7seas]

Staffing cuts are evident just upon observation.

We always sit at the same table on various ships and have for years.

We know how many dining stewards and service areas used to be busily serving in past years. The same section, same tables today have fewer people doing the work. They work as hard as they can but there are not enough of them.

 

[NickCDN]

Staffing cuts are evident just upon observation.

We always sit at the same table on various ships and have for years.

We know how many dining stewards and service areas used to be busily serving in past years. The same section, same tables today have fewer people doing the work. They work as hard as they can but there are not enough of them.

 

 

I agree they work their ass off. I really feel bad for them actually.

 

I am just bitter I paid for a premium cruise and received a carnival cruise.

[swedish weave]

Many companies sell "the perception of quality" and don't necessarily need to provide it. Some may dispute this statement, but it is actually practiced in many fields.

 

If employees are taught to do things a little differently, you will get the impression that you are getting better quality than at other companies.

[agabbymama]

It must be really sad to see such an erosion of what it once was. My buddy was a cruise director on Holland America in the 70's. I show him these threads and he just shakes his head. People bringing their own provisions ie soda water,showing up to the dining room dressed like a bum. The guy at the door would simply say "Sir You Can't Come In Here Dressed Like That" yes sadly enough the guy at the door has also vanished.

 

While some things have changed a lot, along with that change, costs have also changed. Back in the day, cruising was for the elite or well off. Ordinary folks couldn't afford to cruise HAL or Cunard. I STILL CAN"T AFFORD CUNARD!:eek:

 

The cruiselines have had to change their offerings as the client demands changed. Folks today want a more relaxed atmosphere. A lot don't even want to dress up for dinner. And they want amusement park offerings. If the cruiselines don't change they will definitely go under.

 

I think HAL does a good job of trying to walk a tightrope. I like the size of their smaller ships (no behemoths for me). I enjoy formal nights (which HAL does still have). I think their ships are understated elegance. They remain my cruiseline of choice if they have my itinerary, that's who I sail with.