Chair hogs--Proactive

[che5904]

Just out of curiosity, if this is true, then were there no comments about my timer suggestion back at http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=29185326&postcount=163?

 

??? :confused: I have no idea what your question means. This text of mine was taken from a post that I responded to mesci14. What exactly are you asking me.

[ClarkBHM]

??? :confused: I have no idea what your question means. This text of mine was taken from a post that I responded to mesci14. What exactly are you asking me.

 

True. It wasn't directed at you personally, but towards the room as a whole. The thread was created to figure ways of addressing the issue. I thought that my idea was somewhat valid, but was surprised when it didn't warrant a single comment.

 

If people didn't like it or thought it wouldn't work, I guess I was wondering why not?

[che5904]

True. It wasn't directed at you personally, but towards the room as a whole. The thread was created to figure ways of addressing the issue. I thought that my idea was somewhat valid, but was surprised when it didn't warrant a single comment.

 

If people didn't like it or thought it wouldn't work, I guess I was wondering why not?

 

This thread was started ,as I said in the post that you earlier responded on, for NCL to stand up and take notice not other CC members.

Where are your comments on other’s ideas? It seems you have failed to do this before complaining that other posters didn’t rave or debate your idea

Posts very similar to yours (except for the picture) have already been suggested and responded to, perhaps you should have read the 1st 9 pages. #35-timer post #39-responded, #142-timer post #143-responded. So I guess if posters didn't have anything new to say about the timer idea they didn't feel a need to repeat themselves.

[ClarkBHM]

This thread was started ,as I said in the post that you earlier responded on, for NCL to stand up and take notice not other CC members.

 

Where are your comments on other’s ideas? It seems you have failed to do this before complaining that other posters didn’t rave or debate your idea

 

Posts very similar to yours (except for the picture) have already been suggested and responded to, perhaps you should have read the 1st 9 pages. #35-timer post #39-responded, #142-timer post #143-responded. So I guess if posters didn't have anything new to say about the timer idea they didn't feel a need to repeat themselves.

 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

In my opinion, NCL staff should make the effort to go around and remove the stuff that is set out, especially in the early morning. Given that they don't seem to be doing that, it would be nice if they would designate a few staff members as a kind of "deck chair concierge". If someone's things were sitting there, I could notify the deck chair concierge and they would take the responsibility for removing the things.

 

However, I don't think either of things are going to happen. Cruising is a business for NCL. It's about making money. You don't make money by annoying your customers. Some people/cultures may be highly offended if you touch their things. My guess is that NCL has adapted a passive policy with the thought that it will offend the least number of people. Those who save deck chairs will still save them. Those who grumble about not finding the chairs will still grumble. The activist alternative for NCL may delight some guests, but at the risk of infuriating others.

 

Let's put a number value on it, just for kicks.

 

For the chair saver, they go out in the morning, reserve their chair, and that chair is there when they go back. Their happiness quotient (hq) goes up two points. For the non chair-saver, they go looking for a chair and can't find one. Their HQ goes down by two points. In the end, they break even with their guests.

 

Now, let's look at the activist approach. The non-chair savers can find a chair now. So their HQ doesn't go down two points as before, but instead, goes up a point or two. However, the chair saver who is missing their stuff is pissed off. Their HQ plummets to -10. Worse, it's directed towards NCL as it was NCL staff that moved their stuff, not another guest. So NCL has a negative HQ going, and all of that negativity is directed towards them.

 

Thus, given the two choices, be passive and break even versus be active and risk severe alienation, NCL is choosing the "safe" approach and go passive. In the end, NCL will not enact any policies that risk such a bad vibe from their guests.

 

From NCL's point of view, the timer is useful as it gives guests a tool to help alleviate the issue while shifting the burden of enforcement off of NCL.

[che5904]

Fair enough.

 

In my opinion, NCL staff should make the effort to go around and remove the stuff that is set out, especially in the early morning. Given that they don't seem to be doing that, it would be nice if they would designate a few staff members as a kind of "deck chair concierge". If someone's things were sitting there, I could notify the deck chair concierge and they would take the responsibility for removing the things.

 

However, I don't think either of things are going to happen. Cruising is a business for NCL. It's about making money. You don't make money by annoying your customers. Some people/cultures may be highly offended if you touch their things. My guess is that NCL has adapted a passive policy with the thought that it will offend the least number of people. Those who save deck chairs will still save them. Those who grumble about not finding the chairs will still grumble. The activist alternative for NCL may delight some guests, but at the risk of infuriating others.

 

Let's put a number value on it, just for kicks.

 

For the chair saver, they go out in the morning, reserve their chair, and that chair is there when they go back. Their happiness quotient (hq) goes up two points. For the non chair-saver, they go looking for a chair and can't find one. Their HQ goes down by two points. In the end, they break even with their guests.

 

Now, let's look at the activist approach. The non-chair savers can find a chair now. So their HQ doesn't go down two points as before, but instead, goes up a point or two. However, the chair saver who is missing their stuff is pissed off. Their HQ plummets to -10. Worse, it's directed towards NCL as it was NCL staff that moved their stuff, not another guest. So NCL has a negative HQ going, and all of that negativity is directed towards them.

 

Thus, given the two choices, be passive and break even versus be active and risk severe alienation, NCL is choosing the "safe" approach and go passive. In the end, NCL will not enact any policies that risk such a bad vibe from their guests.

 

From NCL's point of view, the timer is useful as it gives guests a tool to help alleviate the issue while shifting the burden of enforcement off of NCL.

 

Well I don't quite totally agree with your analogy, and a timer would still require someone to remove the items after it sits at 0. Which somewhat defeats your own arguement, because a tool will not stop those who are bent bound and determined to do this or designating a party member to come back and reset the timer.

 

However I do love this idea "it would be nice if they would designate a few staff members as a kind of deck chair concierge". Therefore, if I couldn't find a lounge, I could notify the deck chair concierge and they could see if they could locate me an abandoned chair in an area of choice. Maybe they could use the beepers that don't appear to be used much by the MDRs anyway to notify me when one became available. As well if chair hogs realize that there are watch dogs they are less apt to hold the chairs and therefore, less apt to be angry over their items being removed.

[leekel619]

Well I don't quite totally agree with your analogy, and a timer would still require someone to remove the items after it sits at 0. Which somewhat defeats your own arguement, because a tool will not stop those who are bent bound and determined to do this or designating a party member to come back and reset the timer.

 

However I do love this idea "it would be nice if they would designate a few staff members as a kind of deck chair concierge". Therefore, if I couldn't find a lounge, I could notify the deck chair concierge and they could see if they could locate me an abandoned chair in an area of choice. Maybe they could use the beepers that don't appear to be used much by the MDRs anyway to notify me when one became available. As well if chair hogs realize that there are watch dogs they are less apt to hold the chairs and therefore, less apt to be angry over their items being removed.

 

I know and we already talked about meters in #44 and #110, too. For me, if I desire to sit in a lounger, the best thing is move the towel, shoe or book that's been sitting in it for over an hour. Chairs are for the passengers. Hopefully it will be too hot out at poolside for me anyhow! Then I won't have to stress. Definitely won't go in the pool. (That's another thread.)

 

I'll come back next week and let you know if I have any observations of people getting hauled to the brig.

[che5904]

I know and we already talked about meters in #44 and #110, too. For me, if I desire to sit in a lounger, the best thing is move the towel, shoe or book that's been sitting in it for over an hour. Chairs are for the passengers. Hopefully it will be too hot out at poolside for me anyhow! Then I won't have to stress. Definitely won't go in the pool. (That's another thread.)

 

I'll come back next week and let you know if I have any observations of people getting hauled to the brig.

 

One more sleep, I envy you. I can't wait to hear the news from the first cruisers after drydock. Happy cruising.

[ClarkBHM]

Well I don't quite totally agree with your analogy, and a timer would still require someone to remove the items after it sits at 0. Which somewhat defeats your own arguement, because a tool will not stop those who are bent bound and determined to do this or designating a party member to come back and reset the timer.

 

Not necessarily. I think that a timer would empower people to make a move that they are hesitant to make now (moving people's stuff). Additionally, a timer puts the chair savers on notice that they can only have the chair for an hour when they aren't actively sitting on it.

 

The timer has the added benefit of being specific to that chair. I don't want to go around tracking how long various chairs have been open because I don't want to wear a watch on vacation! :rolleyes:

[WinterSky]

Not necessarily. I think that a timer would empower people to make a move that they are hesitant to make now (moving people's stuff). Additionally, a timer puts the chair savers on notice that they can only have the chair for an hour when they aren't actively sitting on it.

 

The timer has the added benefit of being specific to that chair. I don't want to go around tracking how long various chairs have been open because I don't want to wear a watch on vacation! :rolleyes:

 

How would a timer empower people to 'make a move' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies? How would a timer put 'chair savers on notice' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies?

 

I originally didn't respond to the 'timer' suggestion as it seemed like it was put out there as some kind of joke. What would stop the chair savers from sending one of their party out to reset their timers every 30 minutes or hour?

 

Then there are the logistics... Salt water spray would soon rust out timer mechanisms. Who would maintain these timers? Do passengers want the initial cost of 'timers', the cost of their continued maintenance and replacement, as well as the cost of required extra staff to be added to their cruise fare?

 

I also don't get the constant references in this thread to having NCL staff go out early each morning and removing things that have been placed on chairs. What is the point in doing that if nobody else has an interest in sitting in those chairs at that time? What is the goal there? It seems to me that a lot of suggestions that have been brought forward in this thread center on some kind of 'punishment', or at the very least, 'micro-management' of other people's value systems.

 

Are we trying to 'change' other people or are we trying to find a seat when we need one? For me, it is the latter. It is not my interest to change other people. I simply want to find a chair when I need one.

 

A 'timer' would not empower me 'to make a move' as you say, any more than NCL's current policy, signs and notices do. I am already free to remove items from abandoned chairs and have a seat. To do so is pro-active, simple and provides a quick and effective solution. It already does what you said in that it 'puts the chair savers on notice' that they have been away long enough that they have lost 'their' chair. Problem solved. Why do people keep trying to complicate something that already has a permissible, effective solution?

 

The bottom line is that on a cruise, it is the same as it is in every community, the population is made up of three basic groups:

 

PASSIVE

On a cruise, passive individuals choose not to proactively find themselves a chair, and continue to be negatively impacted by aggressive 'chair savers.'

 

AGGRESSIVE

On a cruise, aggressive individuals choose to continue 'chair saving' whether they actually are using the chairs or not, without regard for others.

 

ASSERTIVE

On a cruise, assertive individuals choose to identify abandoned chairs, remove items and make themselves comfortable.

[che5904]

How would a timer empower people to 'make a move' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies? How would a timer put 'chair savers on notice' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies?..........

 

Wintersky, I mostly agree with your reasoning for not thinking the timers would work. However, I still think NCL should be posting their signs more prominently, but if they have now started to post this information in the dailies, I think that is a good start. It isn’t in any of my Star dailies from Feb/March, so maybe this is a new thing.

The possible confusion you may have about the constant reference from posters of “having NCL staff go out early each morning and removing things that have been placed on chairs”, may come from not understanding the thoughts of others. I do not in anyway perceive this as “punishment” to the chair hogs, but as NCL stepping up to the plate and enforcing their own rules. (OK try and look at it this way if you can (realizing that chair hogs and the example I give are not the same in importance). A car is speeding excessively, therefore putting my life in danger. My options: I can ignore them, or get on my cell and try to reach an authority to correct the situation. It is not my job to catch up to the speeder and take action but I may phone and have the police “enforce” their rules.)

Yes, I am trying to “change”, not people, but the actions of people. If NCL did step up to the plate and enforce, by removing said items, then chair hogs would be pretty well non-existent because as many times as they may try, they would not succeed. Therefore eliminating the problem and I would get a lounge.

Your population group is very clear cut. Life is not clear cut there are always gray areas.

I have lost count of the amount of times you have pushed your idea of “taking matters into your own hands” on this thread as well as starting a thread on just this behavior. I feel sad that you can obviously only see [bone [/b]side of a coin and not understand that these other views are not “passive” but not everyone wants the stress and aggravation while on vacation, that may come when the “towel” owner returns. They just want NCL to enforce their own policy, period.

[nbsjcruiser]

Wintersky, I mostly agree with your reasoning for not thinking the timers would work. However, I still think NCL should be posting their signs more prominently, but if they have now started to post this information in the dailies, I think that is a good start. It isn’t in any of my Star dailies from Feb/March, so maybe this is a new thing.

The possible confusion you may have about the constant reference from posters of “having NCL staff go out early each morning and removing things that have been placed on chairs”, may come from not understanding the thoughts of others. I do not in anyway perceive this as “punishment” to the chair hogs, but as NCL stepping up to the plate and enforcing their own rules. (OK try and look at it this way if you can (realizing that chair hogs and the example I give are not the same in importance). A car is speeding excessively, therefore putting my life in danger. My options: I can ignore them, or get on my cell and try to reach an authority to correct the situation. It is not my job to catch up to the speeder and take action but I may phone and have the police “enforce” their rules.)

Yes, I am trying to “change”, not people, but the actions of people. If NCL did step up to the plate and enforce, by removing said items, then chair hogs would be pretty well non-existent because as many times as they may try, they would not succeed. Therefore eliminating the problem and I would get a lounge.

Your population group is very clear cut. Life is not clear cut there are always gray areas.

I have lost count of the amount of times you have pushed your idea of “taking matters into your own hands” on this thread as well as starting a thread on just this behavior. I feel sad that you can obviously only see [bone [/b]side of a coin and not understand that these other views are not “passive” but not everyone wants the stress and aggravation while on vacation, that may come when the “towel” owner returns. They just want NCL to enforce their own policy, period.

''

 

Good points. Look, here is my analogy. If I fired up a cigar in the Dining Room how fast would they be on my ass to put it out. 5, 10 seconds? Why would they do that? Because its against the rules that's why and they enforce the rule and therefore nobody breaks the rule. Same thing with a chair hog. Enforce the rule and nobody will be harmed. If they continue to ignore it, eventually someone is going to get in a fight and be booted form the ship - maybe that's already happened. If it has happened, the cruise company shares the responsibility in that confrontation because they have ignored the rules.

[che5904]

''

 

Good points. Look, here is my analogy. If I fired up a cigar in the Dining Room how fast would they be on my ass to put it out. 5, 10 seconds? Why would they do that? Because its against the rules that's why and they enforce the rule an nobody breaks the rule. Same thing with a chair hog. Enforce the rule and nobody will be harmed. If they continue to ignore it, eventually someone is going to get in a fight and be booted form the ship - maybe that's already happened. If it has happened, the cruise company shares the responsibility in that confrontation because they have ignored the rules.

 

Totally totally agree. I was going to use the analogy of smoking in a bar but chose not to because.. well, anyone that has been on for a bit, knows

why that analogy would be jumped on :D

[ClarkBHM]

How would a timer empower people to 'make a move' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies? How would a timer put 'chair savers on notice' any more so than the currently posted signs and notices in the on board dailies?

 

I originally didn't respond to the 'timer' suggestion as it seemed like it was put out there as some kind of joke. What would stop the chair savers from sending one of their party out to reset their timers every 30 minutes or hour?

 

Then there are the logistics... Salt water spray would soon rust out timer mechanisms. Who would maintain these timers? Do passengers want the initial cost of 'timers', the cost of their continued maintenance and replacement, as well as the cost of required extra staff to be added to their cruise fare?

 

It would empower people to make a move by letting them look around quickly for chairs that have reached zero versus having to stand around for 30 minutes trying to figure out which chairs are actually vacant versus just having gone to the bathroom. Who wants to stand around watching empty chairs on vacation, waiting to sit down?

 

You're right in that nothing would stop the chair savers from sending one of their party every 30 minutes. Like I said, it's not a perfect solution. But, I think they would tire quickly of having to come back repeatedly to their chair, just to reset a timer. Plus if the timer option actually frees up chairs for use in the future, they may not feel the need to HAVE to save chairs in the first place (which is what we all want, right?).

 

Yes, I'm aware of the harsh conditions that the timers will be placed in, given the salt water and weather. That's why you go with something cheap. Alternatively, there may be timer option that is better insulated from the weather. I would think that the additional cost would be minimal. After all, the chairs don't clean and repair themselves when they are dirty or damaged--they already have staff to do those functions.

 

In the end, it goes back to NCL and whether they would prefer to have several grumbling guests instead of a few angry guests. Why not retrofit a single ship with timers to see if the option would work?

[Mooder]

It would empower people to make a move by letting them look around quickly for chairs that have reached zero versus having to stand around for 30 minutes trying to figure out which chairs are actually vacant versus just having gone to the bathroom. Who wants to stand around watching empty chairs on vacation, waiting to sit down?

 

You're right in that nothing would stop the chair savers from sending one of their party every 30 minutes. Like I said, it's not a perfect solution. But, I think they would tire quickly of having to come back repeatedly to their chair, just to reset a timer. Plus if the timer option actually frees up chairs for use in the future, they may not feel the need to HAVE to save chairs in the first place (which is what we all want, right?).

 

Yes, I'm aware of the harsh conditions that the timers will be placed in, given the salt water and weather. That's why you go with something cheap. Alternatively, there may be timer option that is better insulated from the weather. I would think that the additional cost would be minimal. After all, the chairs don't clean and repair themselves when they are dirty or damaged--they already have staff to do those functions.

 

In the end, it goes back to NCL and whether they would prefer to have several grumbling guests instead of a few angry guests. Why not retrofit a single ship with timers to see if the option would work?

 

I don't have anything against the suggestion in principle.

 

As I've stated before, my primary issue would be paying for a solution that I don't think is necessary.

 

Secondarily, and maybe it's just me. But as someone who can be forgetful/distracted/flighty (whatever word you want to use), especially on vacation, I envision jumping up for a quick dip in the pool and coming back in 10 minutes to find that I forgot to set my timer so my chair has been taken. I suppose that's my tough luck, but I would resent the added stress on my vacation. :( Would this lead to an argument? I am half joking about this.

 

The situation reminds me of the problem I have in the buffet when I want to get myself a beverage refill - do I leave a personal belonging on the table to indicate I will be back? I don't want to leave something too valuable so I leave my sunglasses. When I do, a crew member typically flags me down to return what they believe to be my "forgotten" sun glasses. What's a person to do? ;) Vacation is full of inconveniences, but the joys outweigh them by so much, I rarely remember them until I am reminded in conversations like this one.

[che5904]

Secondarily, and maybe it's just me. But as someone who can be forgetful/distracted/flighty (whatever word you want to use), especially on vacation, I envision jumping up for a quick dip in the pool and coming back in 10 minutes to find that I forgot to set my timer so my chair has been taken. I suppose that's my tough luck, but I would resent the added stress on my vacation. :( Would this lead to an argument? I am half joking about this.

 

Now ya see that is where the chair concierge would come in handy. If the chair concierge thought your seat was abandoned and gave it to a new chair lounger, they would be abliged to find you a new one. ;)

 

The situation reminds me of the problem I have in the buffet when I want to get myself a beverage refill - do I leave a personal belonging on the table to indicate I will be back? I don't want to leave something too valuable so I leave my sunglasses. When I do, a crew member typically flags me down to return what they believe to be my "forgotten" sun glasses.

 

Well I hope you thanked him for retrieving them for you. After all a favorite pair of sunglasses are hard to come by. :D

[ClarkBHM]

So, that settles it. NCL should create a chair concierge. :D

[Mooder]

Well I hope you thanked him for retrieving them for you. After all a favorite pair of sunglasses are hard to come by. :D

 

Especially on vacation! I did. He meant well! And I found another table in another area so he wouldn't feel badly about it. :)

[Mooder]

So, that settles it. NCL should create a chair concierge. :D

 

Now who is going to start the thread about whether and how much to tip the chair concierge? ;) LOL

[che5904]

Especially on vacation! I did. He meant well! And I found another table in another area so he wouldn't feel badly about it. :)

 

:D :D Now that is just too funny and very considerate of you not to want him to feel bad.

[che5904]

:

now who is going to start the thread about whether and how much to tip the chair concierge? ;) lol

 

you got a point :D

[ClarkBHM]

Now who is going to start the thread about whether and how much to tip the chair concierge? ;) LOL

 

Nothing of course. We'll include them in the tip pool with the rest of the restaurant staff...

[che5904]

Nothing of course. We'll include them in the tip pool with the rest of the restaurant staff...

 

I think you missed the "start a thread"

[ClarkBHM]

I think you missed the "start a thread"

 

It appears I did. LOL...

[WinterSky]

The possible confusion you may have about the constant reference from posters of “having NCL staff go out early each morning and removing things that have been placed on chairs”, may come from not understanding the thoughts of others. I do not in anyway perceive this as “punishment” to the chair hogs, but as NCL stepping up to the plate and enforcing their own rules.

 

I am not 'confused' at all. What I was referring to is people who keep 'pushing' their idea of having NCL staff remove things from chairs first thing in the morning. My question is for what purpose? Those things are not interfering with anyone's access to chairs at that time of day. And if staff remove things at 7 am, chair hogs will go out at 7:15.... if staff remove things at 8 am, chair hogs will go out at 8:15... nothing will be gained and nothing will change.

Yes, I am trying to “change”, not people, but the actions of people. If NCL did step up to the plate and enforce, by removing said items, then chair hogs would be pretty well non-existent because as many times as they may try, they would not succeed. Therefore eliminating the problem and I would get a lounge.

Perhaps you will succeed in changing the actions of NCL. but I highly doubt it. Your statement that you believe that removing items would mean, "then chair hogs would be pretty well non-existent..." makes me chuckle.

 

Your population group is very clear cut. Life is not clear cut there are always gray areas.

 

I have lost count of the amount of times you have pushed your idea of “taking matters into your own hands” on this thread as well as starting a thread on just this behavior. I feel sad that you can obviously only see [bone [/b]side of a coin and not understand that these other views are not “passive” but not everyone wants the stress and aggravation while on vacation, that may come when the “towel” owner returns. They just want NCL to enforce their own policy, period.

I am flattered that my point of view was interesting and, perhaps, thought provoking enough for you to be keeping count!

 

 

Yes, I should also have included the 'greys' that you refer to... these would be the passive aggressive individuals.

[Darthdaddy]

C'mon, people. Let's stay focused.

 

What can be done to improve the situation?

 

So far we have some pretty good ideas:

1. better signage

2. major emphasis at start of cruise to discourage the hogs

3. removal of items place on chairs in pre-dawn hours

4. sign/sticker on every chair describing time limit

5. timers of all sorts and descriptions

6. chair attendants

7. direct contact to cruise line management

8. use of social media to expose the hogs.

9. self-help

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting some. The point is to find cheap and easy tools to correct the problem. Keep the ideas coming.