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Concordia News: Please Post Here

kingcruiser1

By kingcruiser1,
in Costa Cruises

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Tonka's Skipper

Tonka's Skipper

Posted
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[quote name='Ken711']I wonder if the submerged starboard proves to be too damaged or weak to attached caissons after the parbuckling, what the contingency plan would be.[/quote]

Hi Ken,

Anything is possible and we are still a few months away for righting the hull.

I would think most damages could be over come with additional channels and steel, properly aligned to connect with the cassions. However it would be more work.

AKK
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chengkp75

chengkp75

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Posted
[QUOTE=Tonka's Skipper;39193638]Hi Ken,

Anything is possible and we are still a few months away for righting the hull.

I would think most damages could be over come with additional channels and steel, properly aligned to connect with the cassions. However it would be more work.

AKK[/QUOTE]

I don't think that adding buoyancy at this point is advantageous. That would only increase the amount of movement between the hull and rock. I believe they are leaving the remaining port breach, and all of any starboard breaches open to allow for free-flooding out as the ship is floated, lessening the weight and buoyancy required. I think you are right, that they will just need to contour frames to match the deformed starboard side to attach caissons, but if that fails, there are always lift bags that could be placed inside the hull.
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Tonka's Skipper

Tonka's Skipper

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='chengkp75']I don't think that adding buoyancy at this point is advantageous. That would only increase the amount of movement between the hull and rock. I believe they are leaving the remaining port breach, and all of any starboard breaches open to allow for free-flooding out as the ship is floated, lessening the weight and buoyancy required. I think you are right, that they will just need to contour frames to match the deformed starboard side to attach caissons, but if that fails, there are always lift bags that could be placed inside the hull.[/quote]


Morning Chief,

I was not clear, I was thinking of some more added buoyance may help during and after she's righted. Over course most important would be to make sure she is settled hard against the underwater platform.

I agree the lift bags would be helpful as well!

Just a thought!

AKK Edited by Tonka's Skipper
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lightman1984

lightman1984

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Posted (edited)
I used to think Lone hauled in the caissons on the deck of the ship, then read on here that more were kept below deck in her hold and I thought "no way" - caissons just seem so massive to be within the ship and Lone doesn't look like it would have a hold large enough to fit these things inside of. Low and behold I saw it for myself earlier this morning - looks like a deck hatch open and the cranes ready to yank another caisson out.

Anybody know if there's a documentary being made as salvage efforts progress? I would love to see this up close and in-depth on Discovery Channel someday! Edited by lightman1984
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Ken711

Ken711

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[QUOTE=Tonka's Skipper;39193638]Hi Ken,

Anything is possible and we are still a few months away for righting the hull.

I would think most damages could be over come with additional channels and steel, properly aligned to connect with the cassions. However it would be more work.

AKK[/QUOTE]

Thanks.
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Mike.Minh

Mike.Minh

Posted
Posted (edited)
[quote name='lightman1984']I used to think Lone hauled in the caissons on the deck of the ship, then read on here that more were kept below deck in her hold and I thought "no way" - caissons just seem so massive to be within the ship and Lone doesn't look like it would have a hold large enough to fit these things inside of. Low and behold I saw it for myself earlier this morning - looks like a deck hatch open and the cranes ready to yank another caisson out.

Anybody know if there's a documentary being made as salvage efforts progress? I would love to see this up close and in-depth on Discovery Channel someday![/QUOTE]

The Type 183 heavy lifting ships (MV Lone, MV Svenja) have a decent size hold of 107 x 17 x 13.50 m. Now, where can I quickly find the measurements of the caissons?

Here is a look inside MV LONE
[IMG]http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1191/imag0069mv.jpg[/IMG]

Whilst at it, and because it is a rather fascinating vessel, some more:

[IMG]http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3196/imag0058x.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/5675/imag0065.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1817/imag0054v.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5062/5603594999_7d8a00a6e4.jpg[/IMG] Edited by Mike.Minh
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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

Posted
Posted
[quote name='lightman1984']I used to think Lone hauled in the caissons on the deck of the ship, then read on here that more were kept below deck in her hold and I thought "no way" - caissons just seem so massive to be within the ship and Lone doesn't look like it would have a hold large enough to fit these things inside of. Low and behold I saw it for myself earlier this morning - looks like a deck hatch open and the cranes ready to yank another caisson out.

Anybody know if there's a documentary being made as salvage efforts progress? I would love to see this up close and in-depth on Discovery Channel someday![/quote]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]We are certainly hoping that one is being made.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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chengkp75

chengkp75

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[quote name='sidari']Court decision on Five defendants

[URL]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/costa-concordia-five-guilty-manslaughter-093048402.html#o6NI3bp[/URL][/QUOTE]

Can't believe they convicted (by plea bargain) the helmsman for manslaughter. Unbelievable. Even given a suspended sentance, he is now a convicted felon in Italy. The helmsman does not look at the radar, nor the charts. He does not truly know where the ship is, he just follows helm commands. If he deviated from the Captain's orders, and the ship still ran aground, he would be liable, but not for doing what he is told. He does not have the authority to countermand the Captain, for any reason.
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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

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[quote name='chengkp75']Can't believe they convicted (by plea bargain) the helmsman for manslaughter. Unbelievable. Even given a suspended sentance, he is now a convicted felon in Italy. The helmsman does not look at the radar, nor the charts. He does not truly know where the ship is, he just follows helm commands. If he deviated from the Captain's orders, and the ship still ran aground, he would be liable, but not for doing what he is told. He does not have the authority to countermand the Captain, for any reason.[/quote]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]According to the official report the helmsman misunderstood the Captain's order and started turning the ship wrong. The Captain did correct him but it was too late. Might have been too late even if he had heard him correctly the first time but I don't recall if that was mentioned in report.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]In another blip I read this morning, the Captain wants a new expert to look at why the ship lost power including backup power. He does not accept official report, which I think explained all that.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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Lynnees

Lynnees

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Posted
[quote name='SomeBeach'][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]According to the official report the helmsman misunderstood the Captain's order and started turning the ship wrong. The Captain did correct him but it was too late. Might have been too late even if he had heard him correctly the first time but I don't recall if that was mentioned in report.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][B]In another blip I read this morning, the Captain wants a new expert to look at why the ship lost power including backup power. He does not accept official report, which I think explained all that.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE][/B]
I don't think it's a matter of believing - I think it's another red herring in that one can be pretty sure they won't be able to verify again what he wants done.
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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

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Posted
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]Ken, have you been to the Giglio News Home page today? For some unknown reason my puter is not letting me copy links right now. One of the article talks about the hull and it has 4 photos attached that show the hull. The article indicates that the photos show the compression of Concordia. The pix are from Feb and Dec 2012 and March and July 2013.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]On the home page, it's the article that has "Le Foto" in the title.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]I really couldn't tell the difference, possibly because the angles are a bit different in each shot.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]Lone has been along side Concordia all day. When it first moved there very early this morning I had a storm come through and had to shut down my puter before I could figure out what project was being done but it's still there. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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chengkp75

chengkp75

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Ken, have you been to the Giglio News Home page today? For some unknown reason my puter is not letting me copy links right now. One of the article talks about the hull and it has 4 photos attached that show the hull. The article indicates that the photos show the compression of Concordia. The pix are from Feb and Dec 2012 and March and July 2013.

On the home page, it's the article that has "Le Foto" in the title.

I really couldn't tell the difference, possibly because the angles are a bit different in each shot.

Lone has been along side Concordia all day. When it first moved there very early this morning I had a storm come through and had to shut down my puter before I could figure out what project was being done but it's still there.

 

My first question would be: what is the range of tide at Giglio, and what was the state of tide for each picture taken. Since the Concordia is no longer floating, tides will change the water level against the ship, just as it does the shore. Titan admits to compression, but this is not unusual.

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chengkp75

chengkp75

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According to the official report the helmsman misunderstood the Captain's order and started turning the ship wrong. The Captain did correct him but it was too late. Might have been too late even if he had heard him correctly the first time but I don't recall if that was mentioned in report.

In another blip I read this morning, the Captain wants a new expert to look at why the ship lost power including backup power. He does not accept official report, which I think explained all that.

 

The problem with this argument is that the contact with the rock, which happened before the power failed, was caused by breaching at least 3 adjacent watertight compartments. At that instant, there was no power on this earth that was going to keep the Concordia afloat. It was just a question of where it was going to sink, and the passengers and crew were fortunately very lucky that the ship was driven BY THE WEATHER (and this also refutes Schettino's own claims that he "steered" the ship, with the power out!) onto Giglio shore, rather than foundering in deep water, which would not have allowed the late rescue of so many.

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Uniall

Uniall

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Posted (edited)
Can't believe they convicted (by plea bargain) the helmsman for manslaughter. Unbelievable. Even given a suspended sentance, he is now a convicted felon in Italy. The helmsman does not look at the radar, nor the charts. He does not truly know where the ship is, he just follows helm commands. If he deviated from the Captain's orders, and the ship still ran aground, he would be liable, but not for doing what he is told. He does not have the authority to countermand the Captain, for any reason.

 

Cheng

 

Since manslaughter is part of the criminal law super-imposed on maritime law, it can create results that would not necessarily be created by maritime law alone. When you add additional (and relatively new) areas of law (e.g. conspiracy law, rackateering, etc) into the mix, it can result in holding someone accountable for being part of the actions of a group with the degree of participation only affecting the punishment, not the culpability.

 

It's still an evolving area of the law. Interestingly, the rackateering approach may have started in Italy to control the criminal/social/polictical power of the Mafia eminating from Sicily. It was later adopted in the US under our RICO (Rackateering in Interstate Commerce Offenses) federal laws (and RICO Junior state laws). They were designed to find the foot soldier guilty of being a part of a grand plot hatched by Mr Big. It had the added benefit of getting the foot soldier to "flip" and testify against the Mr Big and even gave rise to witness protection with a new identity.

 

Some legal writers have suggested that these new legal theories flow from the Nuremburg trials which determined that "just following orders" was not a permitted defense. While Nuremburg dealt with "crimes against humanity", the concept began to seep into the criminal laws of werstern nations. Other, legal writers suggest that the concept was simply an expansion of early 20th century conspiracy laws (which required knowledge of the grand scheme) not just committing an act in furtherance of the scheme.

Edited by Uniall
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chengkp75

chengkp75

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Cheng

 

Since manslaughter is part of the criminal law super-imposed on maritime law, it can create results that would not necessarily be created by maritime law alone. When you add additional (and relatively new) areas of law (e.g. conspiracy law, rackateering, etc) into the mix, it can result in holding someone accountable for being part of the actions of a group with the degree of participation only affecting the punishment, not the culpability.

 

It's still an evolving area of the law. Interestingly, the rackateering approach may have started in Italy to control the criminal/social/polictical power of the Mafia eminating from Sicily. It was later adopted in the US under our RICO (Rackateering in Interstate Commerce Offenses) federal laws (and RICO Junior state laws). They were designed to find the foot soldier guilty of being a part of a grand plot hatched by Mr Big. It had the added benefit of getting the foot soldier to "flip" and testify against the Mr Big and even gave rise to witness protection with a new identity.

 

Some legal writers have suggested that these new legal theories flow from the Nuremburg trials which determined that "just following orders" was not a permitted defense. While Nuremburg dealt with "crimes against humanity", the concept began to seep into the criminal laws of werstern nations. Other, legal writers suggest that the concept was simply an expansion of early 20th century conspiracy laws (which required knowledge of the grand scheme) not just committing an act in furtherance of the scheme.

 

Uni;

 

Yes, I was thinking of the Nuremburg defense when I heard about these verdicts. I agree that both the DP (crisis coordinator) and the deck officers were culpable, but for the life of me I still cannot get around convicting the helmsman. If he had disobeyed the Captain, and kept the ship from contacting the rock, this whole sorry scenario would not have happened, but he would have been terminated and/or had his mariner's documents revoked for disobeying the Captain (since no one could have proved that his actions prevented the collision). Seems like he is screwed both ways.

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Uniall

Uniall

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Uni;

 

Yes, I was thinking of the Nuremburg defense when I heard about these verdicts. I agree that both the DP (crisis coordinator) and the deck officers were culpable, but for the life of me I still cannot get around convicting the helmsman. If he had disobeyed the Captain, and kept the ship from contacting the rock, this whole sorry scenario would not have happened, but he would have been terminated and/or had his mariner's documents revoked for disobeying the Captain (since no one could have proved that his actions prevented the collision). Seems like he is screwed both ways.

 

Cheng

 

I'm holding my breath to see if the Italian prosecutors are taking a page from the US playbook.

Watch to see if the defendants, who have pled guilty in a plea bargain, testify against Mr Big (mouth) and later have their sentences reduced or suspended.

Or better yet, using anomalies in Italian Law to rescind the setence and reverse the finding of guilty.

Edited by Uniall
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