Expert Summary of Dawn Incident (Objective)

[wvernnr]

I don't think any "credentials" would make seaventure's op more believable, than those he listed.

 

His post is accurate, factual, and relevant to the issue, IMHO.

 

This is in contrast to those who KNOW that NCL "intented" to put all the crew and passenger's lives "at risk" by "ordereing" the Captain, who is "obvioulsy incompetent", to sail "directly into a hurricane" and he "knew just how bad the storm was going to be", but "didn't know how to deploy his stabilizers" and "pulled them in" which caused "the ship to almost sinK" and "caused horrible rocking" while keeping his searchlight on "so he could watch for big waves," while "went full sped ahead" and none of which can be contested because my "brother in law in NJ" said "Trump got millions" from NCL. All of these assertions are strewn troughout posts by well meaning folks who have drawn conclusions that are not supported by any facts.

 

I can accept them when they are coming from those on the ship who DO believe their lives were in danger and were traumatized, but not from those folks in Manitoba or Iowa reading posts while sipping on a beer

 

The one thing he missed is that while these big boxes are floating around the Caribbean and are beautiful inside, their profiles can't compare with those of the Queens, The Big U, or the Isle d' France.

 

I got the Hoiday Inn line and do think it was funny.

[deniseb]

Enjoy reading everyones post about the Dawn. I have to say that when I go on vacation I purposely avoid those times and places where weather might be questionable. Right now I own my own business & get enough "excitement" from that. I love the sea & storms here in Oregon going to the beach is best when stormy! BUT what I wish someone knew about & would talk a bit about is these freak waves. Here in Oregon a friend who owned a charter fishing business had a 42ft boat overturned by one. Killed 2 people & ruined his psyche for a couple years. He said it was weird because he knew something was not right by his senses & then within moments it hit so some had life jackets on & some did not. It was about a 30ft wave just a short distance past the bar.

[seahorse]

I don't think any "credentials" would make seaventure's op more believable, than those he listed.

 

His post is accurate, factual, and relevant to the issue, IMHO.

 

This is in contrast to those who KNOW that NCL "intented" to put all the crew and passenger's lives "at risk" by "ordereing" the Captain, who is "obvioulsy incompetent", to sail "directly into a hurricane" and he "knew just how bad the storm was going to be", but "didn't know how to deploy his stabilizers" and "pulled them in" which caused "the ship to almost sinK" and "caused horrible rocking" while keeping his searchlight on "so he could watch for big waves," while "went full sped ahead" and none of which can be contested because my "brother in law in NJ" said "Trump got millions" from NCL. All of these assertions are strewn troughout posts by well meaning folks who have drawn conclusions that are not supported by any facts.

 

I can accept them when they are coming from those on the ship who DO believe their lives were in danger and were traumatized, but not from those folks in Manitoba or Iowa reading posts while sipping on a beer

 

The one thing he missed is that while these big boxes are floating around the Caribbean and are beautiful inside, their profiles can't compare with those of the Queens, The Big U, or the Isle d' France.

 

I got the Hoiday Inn line and do think it was funny.

 

I agree, what he posted made sense to me from what little I know about this vast subject. (Don`t tell my DH I just said that)

 

If you really think about it, anyone on this board can say anything they want to about themselves. We would never know unless we sailed with them.

 

I am a sceptic sometimes, I try not to be, but the OP imho was pretty right on.

[wvernnr]

You don't mean that you would not believe me when I offer to take you to my castle in Scotland to play golf on St Andrews My family owns the course.

 

You can even decide if we go in my yacht which I bought from from my collge roomate, Bilk Gates, (The Donald wanted it, but Billy thought I should have it) or Richard Branson's private 747...I got it as a gift from Sirr Dickey rom him when i sold him my island in the carribbean.

 

We can meet at the Waldorf...My Great Uncle was some guy who liked to cruise, John Astor, or something. Seems he was lost at sea. my father inherited the two floors there which were Big John's residence.

[seahorse]

You don't mean that you would not believe me when I offer to take you to my castle in Scotland to play golf on St Andrews My family owns the course.

 

You can even decide if we go in my yacht which I bought from from my collge roomate, Bilk Gates, (The Donald wanted it, but Billy thought I should have it) or Richard Branson's private 747...I got it as a gift from Sirr Dickey rom him when i sold him my island in the carribbean.

 

We can meet at the Waldorf...My Great Uncle was some guy who liked to cruise, John Astor, or something. Seems he was lost at sea. my father inherited the two floors there which were Big John's residence.

 

Sorry,

 

I don`t play golf.........but I would like to go on your yacht:D I have stayed at the Waldorf...........could we stay at the Ritz in Paris, please:D

[frontrangecruiser]

Sorry,

 

I don`t play golf.........but I would like to go on your yacht:D I have stayed at the Waldorf...........could we stay at the Ritz in Paris, please:D

 

Be careful....his college roommate was "Bilk" Gates......;)

[Guest nhrich]

Be careful....his college roommate was "Bilk" Gates......;)

And somehow, I don't think that was a typo, either :)

 

Rich, ACC

Carefree Vacations

[RAM FAN]

you have a wonderful talent for stating the facts: clearly, calmly, fair and impartial, and i for one salute ya! :D

Had to smile,when i seen the name "Oceanbreeze" under your listing,we were on it in 93,still the most fun we have ever had on any cruise.And we were on the Norway too.

[Guest OBAYbee]

I found the OP's post very informative. I just like the others have mentioned on this thread, do find he was being attacked. But perhaps that is what the norm is on the NCL boards. It certainly isn't on the RCCL boards. And no I don't get the Holiday Inn joke.

[fin]

OBAY - in order to get the joke, you would need to be someone who (a) watches television including the commercials (b) thinks that commercials are worthy of remembering later and © just assumes that everyone else feels the same. Fortunately for the advertisers, this describes many people. Fortunuately for you, you are not one of them.

[shoreguy]

OBAY - in order to get the joke, you would need to be someone who (a) watches television including the commercials (b) thinks that commercials are worthy of remembering later and © just assumes that everyone else feels the same. Fortunately for the advertisers, this describes many people. Fortunuately for you, you are not one of them.

 

or read the whole thread before posting :)

[Retired not Expired]

I found the OP's post very informative. I just like the others have mentioned on this thread, do find he was being attacked. But perhaps that is what the norm is on the NCL boards. It certainly isn't on the RCCL boards. And no I don't get the Holiday Inn joke.

 

No, attacking hasn't been the norm here on NCL. Just been some very opinionated dialog since the wave. Most times it very nice except on the same subjects that passions rise over at RCCL. Jean and short in the dining room, formal wear, kids, etc.

 

My first excursion over to RCCL had me wondering the same thing over there. Three were attacking one over a dining room issue and I went to the one's defense. Wasn't a good move. They went after me basically telling me to shut up, that my opinion wasn't needed or appreciated. At least it took some pressure off the one they were going after. What was sad was both side were legally correct according to RCI's rules.

 

So please come over and visit some more. You'll find both about equal. Same subjects causes tempers to rise but both forums give some good help.

 

On the Holiday Inn Express, like Shoreguy said above, a TV commercial for them. In one, a guy may rush to give aid in a medical situation. He's asked, "Are you a doctor". He answers, "No, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night". They mean it as smart people stay there, but I see it as wierdo's do.

[Guest OBAYbee]

RetirednotExpired, Thank you for the encouragement to keep coming back to this board. I was about to throw in the towel.

I imagine my timing couldn't have been worse, with the wave hitting etc.

I don't watch TV too much. When I get off of work that's usually the last thing I want to do. I can see now why that joke went right past me LOL

[wvernnr]

Ok Seahorse, I will check with my ex-girlfriend Paris if she can slip us into the Ritz, or into Hilton...

 

NhRich & Frontrangecruiser, why would I intentionally mispell Senor Gates name wrongly...I just love clicking on that little white pointy thing on my screen...and absolutely nothing happens. I could do that for hours and hours. Doing the ctrl alt delete thing is so much fun too! It's especially cool when I am paying 50 cents a minute for access.

 

But best of all is the excercise I get crawling under my desk to unplug and replug my computer so that I can boot the s**t out if it and get the G** D*** wndows to start again!

 

Have a nice day!

[johnql]

I found the OP's post very informative. I just like the others have mentioned on this thread, do find he was being attacked. But perhaps that is what the norm is on the NCL boards. It certainly isn't on the RCCL boards.

I agree that there has been an above-average amount of sniping and attacking recently on the NCL board. But I've seen the same thing happen on the RCI board. However, I don't think it's the norm on either board.

[Host CMLA]

OBAY - in order to get the joke, you would need to be someone who (a) watches television including the commercials (b) thinks that commercials are worthy of remembering later and © just assumes that everyone else feels the same. Fortunately for the advertisers, this describes many people. Fortunuately for you, you are not one of them.

Or D you're an international media buyer (like myself) and it's your job to be up on what the competition is doing especially if you buy for a competing chain (like I do). Contrary to what people think...Cruise Critic isn't a paying gig for me. I have a real job too. ;)

 

In any case...I appreciate the original poster coming back and going into more detail about his expertise. If I follow the same rules I guess I'm an expert on shoe shopping. :p

[Guest nhrich]

NhRich & Frontrangecruiser, why would I intentionally mispell Senor Gates name wrongly

I just thought that maybe you were implying that with Microsoft's monopoly in the Windows marketplace, that Gates was bilking people. If it's an honest typo, I can certainly accept that as well!

 

Rich

[Guest nhrich]

If I follow the same rules I guess I'm an expert on shoe shopping. :p

Yep, you and every other woman I know ;)

 

Rich

[Andipanda1]

Some posters are confused and I apologize. Let me reiterate

(note the CAPITALIZED KEYWORDS PLEASE):

 

POINT: Am I THE expert - NO. Is there ONE expert - NO. I am an expert in surveying these type of circumstances and situations based on not only past circumstances but a very elevated expertise in cruise ship design, maritime and weather patterns and how vessels react and perform at sea -

 

The confusion is how some readers translated the word expert - I used it as an adjective (Cambridge Dictionary: expert adjective [before noun]

The centre provides expert advice for people with financial problems.

What's your expert opinion?).

 

I also prefaced my "expert" summary with some of my credentials which includes extensive time at sea, particularly through confused and high seas as well as hurricanes and my experience in ship design and maritime issues regarding weather and sea conditions. I spend about two hours a day reviewing sea conditions, wave heights, winds and forecasts in the North and South Atlantic and Caribbean Basin.

 

I did NOT intend to mislead the general public and our readers that today's cruise ship are not capable of sailing through heavy weather. I did state that while today's cruise ship's can and do sail through adverse conditions, they were not designed to maintain the comfort level and/or stability of say QM2 or ships designed with round bottom hulls and deep drafts. Many of today's cruise ships were simply built for warm water cruising where in general, sea conditions are more favorable than say the North Atlantic.

 

Yes, 99% of today's cruise ships are built in Europe (Fincantiere, Kvaerner Mesa, Lloyd Werft, etc.). Of course these ships have to cross the Atlantic to get here, but unless they are repositioning to Europe, this is where they stay for the exception of those ships that sail from the west coast to say Hawaii (trans Pacific).

 

Let's get real - ships are capable of avoiding serious ocean conditions - in most circumstances. However as I also previously stated, squalls and uncertain events can generate unpredictable conditions - the ocean (nature) is what it is.

 

I was not offended by any previous comments but diplomacy shouldn't be a hard thing to expect (within reason)...I am open to any further comments and inquiries and appreciate those who took my Expert Summary for what is it.

 

I took your commentary for what it was, and I appreciate it. Thank you.

[Tomct]

Enjoy reading everyones post about the Dawn. I have to say that when I go on vacation I purposely avoid those times and places where weather might be questionable. Right now I own my own business & get enough "excitement" from that. I love the sea & storms here in Oregon going to the beach is best when stormy! BUT what I wish someone knew about & would talk a bit about is these freak waves. Here in Oregon a friend who owned a charter fishing business had a 42ft boat overturned by one. Killed 2 people & ruined his psyche for a couple years. He said it was weird because he knew something was not right by his senses & then within moments it hit so some had life jackets on & some did not. It was about a 30ft wave just a short distance past the bar.

 

I've done some searches, and found as much as I needed to know at this time.

 

First, I tried "rogue wave", and "rouge wave Dawn", and found lots of newspaper articles, many quoting from a few sources. One of the prominant names in the industry I found was a marine physicist named Susanne Lehner.

 

So, next I searched on "Susanne Lehner" and "Susanne Lehner Dawn" and found what I needed.

 

You may want to start with Susanne.

 

Here's one of the articles:

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-swave19apr19,0,3753229.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

 

 

Seaventurer's posts were the most helpful to me, all beef, no fillers!! When he was at the Holiday Inn Express, he must have eaten out!!

[wvernnr]

I've done some searches, and found as much as I needed to know at this time.

 

First, I tried "rogue wave", and "rouge wave Dawn", and found lots of newspaper articles, many quoting from a few sources. One of the prominant names in the industry I found was a marine physicist named Susanne Lehner.

 

So, next I searched on "Susanne Lehner" and "Susanne Lehner Dawn" and found what I needed.

 

You may want to start with Susanne.

 

Here's one of the articles:

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-swave19apr19,0,3753229.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

 

 

Seaventurer's posts were the most helpful to me, all beef, no fillers!! When he was at the Holiday Inn Express, he must have eaten out!!

Rich..always go with your first instincts!

[Gigsjp]

LAST WORD: The Dawn consistently sails through large seas and conditions associated with the North Atlantic and has been successful until the past week in maintaining safe passage.

 

Ironic that you mention that seaventurer. When the captain came over the PA the afternoon prior to the storm. He mentioned that we would be heading into some rough seas, but the ship has had experience with them and handles the swells very well.

 

Thanks for your informative post.

[Gingee]

I have a question for you. We are sailing out of NYC Memorial Weekend. Do you consider that the calm North Atlantic seas times? We are also headed to the eastern carribbean and I am getting a little spooked about everyone saying the North Atlantic is basically not a good cruising area.

[Gingee]

I read your article that you posted from another site. Based on that information, more than 200 big ships have been sunk in the last decade? To me that seems creepy.

[jaxon41]

You might want to recheck your statement about satellites. http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/chi-050421freakwave-story,1,6487073.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo-utl if you look on the left hand side of the article there is a video regarding the use of satellites in identifying rogue waves -- I believe the video said they think it can be done in 2 yrs. I was surprised to learn that they used to think a rogue happened only every 10,000 years, or something!!! Now, they know they happen every week.

 

Like others here, I will await the NTSB investigation, but I do appreciate your insights as I learned a few things. I would caution about the "act of God" language in the contract. This will not be a contract case; it will be a tort case. Believe me, the ship would much prefer it to be a contract case. It is against public policy to exculpate negligence in any contract. If I could prove that it was negligent to take this ship into a storm, it won't matter if the true damage was from a rogue. One might have expert testimony that those are the exact conditions for a rogue. And from what I have read, it certainly is not a jump to find a nexus between going into the storm and trying to move docking up by 5 hours, imo. There is already an admission that the change of itinery was because of the pr date -- what if it hadn't been changed? Would the ship have encountered the storm? the rogue? Lawyers are clever and juries are often sympathetic to plaintiffs in whose shoes they can easily fit.

 

To dismiss the whole matter as an "act of God" would be like saying that a plane which was not properly deiced, was downed by an "act of God," or that Ford wasn't culpable for the Pinto because it didn't plow into the back of one or that an electrician who messes up,causing my house to burn down,is not liable because he didn't warrent the work. It's just not that simple.

 

You are so correct about the impact on the entire industry. I have two cruises booked for this year -- one leaving soon -- but I will not book another for a couple of years, pending the advancements spoken about in that heretofore mentioned video, or further study into whether a specific body of water is safer than another.