Will the Grandeur captain lose his job?

[CruisinMaterial]

Whoever designed it must have gotten their degree from Sears!!

 

Now that's a good one! LOL. I tend to agree with that comment. When we were at Costa Maya when it was still brand new, it was a pain as I recall getting out of there. I was sleeping when we docked in the AM though. It was pretty breezy too. It's not the greatest of ports to be at. You'd think they would design some form of wall to stop the currents at least? I know that would be expensive or maybe since the port is not so great, they should just abandon it? :confused:

 

JMHO,

~JAKE

[ajhcruiser]

We just got home at 4 am last night (flying and driving back) from the Grandeur, we'll post our experiance soon. There were two other ships in port that day larger then ours and they had no trouble docking. The wind was not too strong and seas weren't unusually strong that day. We believe it was not an accident caused by nature, but an error on the part of whomever was at the controls. Also the wind was blowing on the starboard side, which would have pushed the ship away from the pier, not into the pier. We don't think the Captain will be sailing another RCL cruiseship again. The financial loss was significant plus the PR liability and notoriety will be too great for them to have a captain that "crashed" a boat onboard. That said, we will cruise RCL again, the staff was great and other then a stressful day getting home (because of several mistakes on their part)- we had a great time. We've cruised 8 times now and have learned to take things in stride, even major things like this.

[Cruise Cat]

I agree with Marykatesmom in that we should not rush to judgement. Hopefully, RCI does not manage things like it is the 1960s..........

This is a Learning Opportunity. This port was not without hazard as there have been incidents with this dock before. However, RCCL still chose to have it as a port. Therefore, it was determined by their management to be "Acceptable Risk". Now, like any situation involving acceptable risk, I am sure RCCL set forth some decision making guidelines on this port for the command staff to follow. I am sure RCCL will look at this situation in it's entire context to determine what went wrong and how they can do better the next time. You don't just take away the driver's license of every automobile drive who ever had a fender bender now do you?

RCCL will have to gather all the facts, including if all members of the bridge crew had the proper "Questioning Attitude" and told the Captain of certain things and even if the controls responed properly or "Well Enough". The Captain or some of the bridge staff may even do something such as rotate to their training facility to help those who do the training better prepare captains for a situation such as they faced; not only the docking but all the stuff that came after. They might even help the designers and engineers tweak the responses of some of the systems for rough seas docking.

Progress and our standards of living involve risk. We take our lumps and journey forward.....

[Ericknow32]

On a humanistic level I would hope that this was not the fault of the captain and I hope he keeps his job. However on a realistic level I think it was his fault. Whenever docking or departing the captain must be on the bridge. He controls the ship. Therefore he is liable if there was any err on his part. So I hope this wasn't his fault and he doesn't loose his job but I think it was and he will.

[Reltco]

SOLAS (Safety of Lives at Sea) regulations apply. If the CAPT did his best under the circumstances, he will be cleared. But you have to ask yourself, if the circumstances were not beyond the CAPT's capabilites and control, why not wave off the approach and try again. I'm looking forward to seeing the investigation results.

[TahoeBob]

You don't just take away the driver's license of every automobile drive who ever had a fender bender now do you?

 

there is a bit of difference between a drivers license and a captns license. any one can go get a drivers license with very little effort. Getting a captns license well it takes years to get to this stage. another difference is if I get I a fender bender it will cost my Insurance co very little, a fender bender in a ship of this size could cost RCI millions that is not covered by Insurance. I don't know all the facts but I would be suprised if the CPTN still has a job with RCI.

 

 

Bob

[ajhcruiser]

There's a big difference between a ship and car! This was NOT a fender bender, it was a 42 foot hole in the front of the ship. Our waiter was sleeping not far from the crash and people could have been injured. You'll see pictures posted online and for those of us that saw it firsthand, open into the interior of the ship- you can't imagine it unless you'd seen it. The fact that it took a team of professional welders three days working round the clock should give you an idea of the damage. It didn't just damage the exterior but the interior as well. Just because no one was injured doesn't make it a "minor" thing. Even the deckhands on the peir who were waiting to secure the ropes were endangered. If you're going to take control of a vessel that large with that many lives on board, you'd better know how to "drive" and "park" it. I do feel badly for the Captain, this will probably cost him his career, but personally I wouldn't want to cruise with him at the helm. I'll cruise RCL again in a heartbeat, but I want a Captain who has control over his ship. It was a beautiful day and there were two other cruise ships already docked when we got there so it can't be that hard to dock there.

[Cruise Cat]

there is a bit of difference between a drivers license and a captns license. any one can go get a drivers license with very little effort. Getting a captns license well it takes years to get to this stage. another difference is if I get I a fender bender it will cost my Insurance co very little, a fender bender in a ship of this size could cost RCI millions that is not covered by Insurance. I don't know all the facts but I would be suprised if the CPTN still has a job with RCI.

 

Bob

 

Bob, That's even more to my point. He didn't just become captain overnight. It took him years to become captain. They have invested a lot in time, money, and other resources in him over the years. He has proven himself time and time again to get to this point in his career. In spite of this mishap, he can still can be a valuable contributor to the company. He may still be one of the best captains they have given the circumstances he was put in. RCCL chose this port in spite of the known hazards to dock. Those RCCL execs also have some culpability in this as well. They placed him in that difficult situation. The fact that he has docked the ship there successfully many times in the past proves he is not as completely incompetent as some people want to believe he is. Maybe he took some last second actions to mitigate even worse damage that we are not aware of. We just don't know.

 

I know this was a traumatic experience for all involved, and there is a lot of emotion. However, we need to let the trained and experienced accident investigators analyze this incident in a logical and methodical fashion in order to determine the root cause of this including any organizational weaknesses and other contributors to this event. Causes of events such as this are seldom simple. Just replacing this captain with another will probably not prevent it from recurring.

[1corona4u]

There's a big difference between a ship and car! This was NOT a fender bender, it was a 42 foot hole in the front of the ship. Our waiter was sleeping not far from the crash and people could have been injured. You'll see pictures posted online and for those of us that saw it firsthand, open into the interior of the ship- you can't imagine it unless you'd seen it. The fact that it took a team of professional welders three days working round the clock should give you an idea of the damage. It didn't just damage the exterior but the interior as well. Just because no one was injured doesn't make it a "minor" thing. Even the deckhands on the peir who were waiting to secure the ropes were endangered. If you're going to take control of a vessel that large with that many lives on board, you'd better know how to "drive" and "park" it. I do feel badly for the Captain, this will probably cost him his career, but personally I wouldn't want to cruise with him at the helm. I'll cruise RCL again in a heartbeat, but I want a Captain who has control over his ship. It was a beautiful day and there were two other cruise ships already docked when we got there so it can't be that hard to dock there.

 

We've all seen the damage. There are pix on the board. I'd really like to wait until the other shoe drops before I think this is totally the Captain's fault. Having spent 10 years on Yachts, there are a number of things that could go wrong, including the waves/wind. I'm not rushing to judgement.

[Firefighterhoop]

I think i agree with the majority here by saying that as far as the captain being fired it is still far from that. I am sure that anything to do with that will be on hold until RCCL Finds out the results of their and the Mexican Government's crash report, and interviews everyone involved.

 

Let's not jump to a conclusion so soon. I would not be suprised however if he is put on leave for a while until the reports are unvailed.

[TahoeBob]

We've all seen the damage. There are pix on the board. I'd really like to wait until the other shoe drops before I think this is totally the Captain's fault. Having spent 10 years on Yachts, there are a number of things that could go wrong, including the waves/wind. I'm not rushing to judgement.

 

there probally were other factors involved in the crash, but he is the captain and it is his fault. In this type of industry for what ever reason the one in charge takes the blame. Should he lose his job, its not my call but like I said in another post I would be supprised if he still has job when the dust settles.

[caitlyn20]

Also the wind was blowing on the starboard side, which would have pushed the ship away from the pier, not into the pier.

 

Not sure I understand this. The hole is on the opposite side of the starboard side (the port side), so if it was blowing against the starboard side, it indeed would have pushed the ship into the dock.

[caitlyn20]

There were two other ships in port that day larger then ours and they had no trouble docking. .

 

Just because they were docked does not mean they had "no trouble docking." We have no idea if they had problems, as they were docked when we got there.

 

Also, if you will recall, they were docked perpendicular to our ship, so the wind would have been at their back ends, not against the entire side of the ship.

[caitlyn20]

It was a beautiful day and there were two other cruise ships already docked when we got there so it can't be that hard to dock there.

 

Just because an expert makes something look easy, doesn't mean it is.

 

"Gee, THAT doctor had two successful open heart surgeries, so why did this other doctor have a problem with HIS patient. It can't be that hard."

 

Please. If you've never docked a ship, don't speculate on how "easy" you think it would be. Had you read the other thread, you would have learned that ships turn away from Costa Maya because of the strange currents and weather patterns that pop up without warning....even when there are already other ships successfully docked.

[Globaliser]

there probally were other factors involved in the crash, but he is the captain and it is his fault. In this type of industry for what ever reason the one in charge takes the blame.

Even in the best run transport systems, stuff happens that is nobody's fault. Including on big ships.

 

That's why we need to stop attributing fault and blame and wait for the accident investigation report to see what happened and why.

[MGoBlue2]

I wouldn't know where to speculate on the captain losing his job after this incident. I would think that it was partially the fact that the ship turns into a gigantic sail when turned sideways and the fact that they are in the open waters when docking with a strong current. It's partially natures fault but I'm sure he'll be seriously reprimanded, if not fired. I doubt the rest of the bridge crew will lose their jobs because of it.

 

As for the NTSB investigating. The accident would have had to occur at a United States port for them to investigate. Since the ship is registered in a foreign country and not the US, they do not have jurisdiction over it. The country where the ship is registered could do an investigation but lets face it, they register it there so they don't get bugged by regulatory practices. The US Coast Guard might do an inspection when it comes back but they also do not have any jurisdiction over the incident itself because it happened in Mexico. It's up to the Government of Mexico to decide what to do and based on what we've seen so far, they appear not to care enough to send armed guards to the pier to protect the ship. All they had was the security from the ship!

The Coast Guard did a complete investigation of the Monarch incident even though it was a Norwegian Registry vessel and the accident happened in Dutch waters.

[Starspangle1]

I think that when a ship is being brought into port it's not the Captain that's at the wheel, I am almost certain that a pilot comes on board to get it into port, at every ship I've been on that's the deal.

[Globaliser]

I think that when a ship is being brought into port it's not the Captain that's at the wheel, I am almost certain that a pilot comes on board to get it into port, at every ship I've been on that's the deal.

If you read this thread, there's a lot of informed discussion (as well as a lot of uninformed speculation) about the respective responsibilities of the pilot and the captain. One of the posters is the wife of a current RCI captain, and has a lot of useful information.

[ajhcruiser]

Not sure I understand this. The hole is on the opposite side of the starboard side (the port side), so if it was blowing against the starboard side, it indeed would have pushed the ship into the dock.

 

Naval verbiage . . .

 

Starboard = RIGHT

Port = LEFT

 

Ship damage on right side of vessel (starboard)

 

Wind blowing on starboard side as evidenced by flags on the pier entrance and the RC flag flying at the bow of the ship.

 

Pier to the right of ship.

 

Steady 15 knot (as reported) prevailing wind (striking starboard side) would therefore be pushing ship away from pier . . .

 

Does this help?

[Guest OBAYbee]

Maybe RCL should give him a job as a waiter!

 

ROTFL!

[crowsnest]

I think that when a ship is being brought into port it's not the Captain that's at the wheel, I am almost certain that a pilot comes on board to get it into port, at every ship I've been on that's the deal.

 

 

 

That has always been my understanding as well. Now, I am very curious.

[Coralc]

That is incorrect, except for the Panama Canal, where the captain actually has to give up control and steering of the ship to the canal pilots. Our captain on Brilliance was complaining about the canal passage because they hate to give up that control. At other ports, and on the Mississippi River, the pilots are just guides, and familiar with local navigation hazards. They do not steer or man the wheel. The ship's crew are on the controls.

[Reltco]

That is incorrect, except for the Panama Canal, where the captain actually has to give up control and steering of the ship to the canal pilots. Our captain on Brilliance was complaining about the canal passage because they hate to give up that control. At other ports, and on the Mississippi River, the pilots are just guides, and familiar with local navigation hazards. They do not steer or man the wheel. The ship's crew are on the controls.

 

The Panama Canal locks and leaving/entering a dry dock (actually breaking the plane of the DD entrance) are the only 2 times a Captain is not responsible for damage to the ship (the pilot is).

 

Past performance records, how people "feel" about the CAPT, how nice of a guy he is doesn't mean diddly in a situation like this. Whether wind or current, act of God, or a sea gull fart caused the accident, the Captain of the Grandeur is responsible and he must answer for it. He may answer for it by means of his job or some lesser reprimand depending on the results of the investigation.

 

Reltco - Navigator of USS Nimitz (CVN-68)

[Globaliser]

Steady 15 knot (as reported) prevailing wind (striking starboard side) would therefore be pushing ship away from pier . . .

In many ways, it doesn't really matter whether the wind was pushing the ship into the pier or away from it. Even if it was pushing away, the ship would be trying to dock using its own power, including the thrusters. If the wind suddenly dropped away, which it sometimes does when it's gusty, the ship's own power would have pushed the ship towards the pier faster than planned. These things can happen.

[Starspangle1]

Mr. Globaliser,

No need to be so nasty, enough said!!!! God don't like UGLY!