Another Carnival lawsuit

[kayhold]

Know what? She was alert to what was going on.

 

You can be in shock and alert...

 

If she was bleeding out, at some point she would most likely go into shock. Thats just how it works. The article said nothing about shock, but its safe to assume she went into shock before she died.

[songbird1329]

Ok, someone with legal expertise chiming in.

 

 

I don't know enough about maritime law to give a definitive answer so I will respond as if common law applies.

 

There are two issues, whether Carnival is responsible for her being over-served and whetger her medical care was lacking and caused her death.

 

In most states there is something called a Dram Shop Act. It makes a bar responsible if they serve an obviously intoxicated person and that person has an accident on the way home and hurts or kills someone else. The victim can sue the bar. New trend by creative plaintiffs' lawyers is to argue that the bartender is also liable if you hurt yourself. I don't know how successful that argument has been, but that's the argument being made here.

 

As for the medical care issue. What we have is a soundbite. The reporter read the allegations of the pleadings and gave us a summary. Before this case ever reaches a jurythete will be many many depositions. Everyone involved in the incident will testify and there will be testimony about Carnival's usual practices in the event of a medical emergency -- were protocols followed here? And then both sides will hire "experts" to testify about the level of medical care you should expect on a cruise ship.

 

 

My educated guess, based on the soundbite, is that this case is likely to settle before trial.

[Tuffy1129]

Just saying - the intoxication is less of an issue than their inability to respond appropriately. A completely sober person in the same situation would have had the same result from the blood loss. (They need to be moved supine - not upright) I'm not advocating intoxication of any kind I'm just trying to say that what everyone needs to be concerned with - including people behaving responsibly - is that if you have an emergency situation the crew might not be trained to handle it. If you're the one calling for help make someone aware you aren't looking for the room steward - you need an EMT.

[SarahQ]

I can't imagine it would be too hard to get Carnivals records with phone call times, etc. Any decent lawyer would know the times were right before filing.

 

I'm not sure (I'm definitely not a lawyer) but I don't know that Carnival would be required to provide phone records until the case is actually in progress - this is not an incident that happened in the US, or even on land, so the law applies differently.

 

Phone calls were also only a small part of the overall story/timeline. The only thing phone records would definitely prove was the time between the first call and when she was pronounced dead (crew communication may not have been done by phone).

 

Timelines are also not the only thing in question - every observation by the family (what the nurse did, what she was transported in etc.) could be called into question due to their mental state at the time.

 

Again, I'm not defending Carnival, just urging people to not blindly believe everything they read (especially when the source is a personal injury lawyer/lawsuit).

[songbird1329]

Large corporations usually have incident reports. The nurse who responded, etc. had to have written a report. Those reports were probably shared with the lawyer before he drafted the pleadings.

 

 

But more detailed information woukd come out during pretrial discovery.

[songbird1329]

Large corporations usually have incident reports. The nurse who responded, etc. had to have written a report. Those reports were probably shared with the lawyer before he drafted the pleadings. Medical records are usually available to the patient or her family regardless of litigation.

 

 

But more detailed information would come out during pretrial discovery.

[whitecap]

Just saying - the intoxication is less of an issue than their inability to respond appropriately. A completely sober person in the same situation would have had the same result from the blood loss. (They need to be moved supine - not upright) I'm not advocating intoxication of any kind I'm just trying to say that what everyone needs to be concerned with - including people behaving responsibly - is that if you have an emergency situation the crew might not be trained to handle it. If you're the one calling for help make someone aware you aren't looking for the room steward - you need an EMT.

 

In part we certainly agree but what I don't understand (and I know it isn't a perfect world) is why someone would go on a cruise ship knowing that they are putting themselves in a position where the normal types of services, in this case medical, is not available. This is a cruise ship, not a hospital ship. I am sure there are stories out there where a cruise ship medical department performed a "miracle" using just the limited equipment they had available, but a passenger has to know that there isn't a "hospital" available. Passengers all know that intoxication leads to the potential for problems and the possession of and use of controlled substances is illegal. So why put yourself, your family and traveling companions (not to mention other passengers) in that position.

[divingmedic]

In part we certainly agree but what I don't understand (and I know it isn't a perfect world) is why someone would go on a cruise ship knowing that they are putting themselves in a position where the normal types of services, in this case medical, is not available. This is a cruise ship, not a hospital ship. I am sure there are stories out there where a cruise ship medical department performed a "miracle" using just the limited equipment they had available, but a passenger has to know that there isn't a "hospital" available. Passengers all know that intoxication leads to the potential for problems and the possession of and use of controlled substances is illegal. So why put yourself, your family and traveling companions (not to mention other passengers) in that position.

There is medical care aboard the ship, if not there would not be an infirmary. I have read some where that the nurses on board must have certain certifications to work aboard the ship, I am willing to bet they are at least Advanced Cardiac Life Support and International Trauma Life Support. I am also willing to be the Doctors on board must also meet a certain minimum certifications and training in Emergency Medical Care. It has been reported that cruise ships carry the clot busting drugs in the event of Myocardial Infarction and Strokes, the medical staff should have minimal training in basic trauma care.

[divingmedic]

I see what you are saying, .08 is the recognize percent as intoxicated/impaired, but because on a cruise ship .15 is the norm you aren't impaired even though you are at twice the limit because you aren't driving! And what is your take on the use of controlled substances? Its ok as long as you don't shoot up or smoke it in front of children? My guess is you have never been the victim as a result of the actions of a drunk or otherwise intoxicated person or investigated a vehicle crash involving a impaired driver. As in my earlier post:

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! Don't blame others because your negligence had bad results.

The level of her blood alcohol is a moot point. So is the fact that she had THC in her system. She could have smoked pot up to 30 days before boarding the ship and would test positive for it. Also blood alcohol levels for operating a motor vehicle and blood alcohol levels for being able to function are totally different. No one is questioning her personal responsibility in this issue ( at least on this thread) the only thing we are question is the response and care given to her by the medical and other staff aboard the ship.

[divingmedic]

Know what? She was alert to what was going on.

We use a thing called the Glascow Coma Scale. There are many levels of alertness. I am willing to bet she scored in the middle to lower end of the scale and was showing signs of hypoperfusion and shock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale

[whitecap]

The level of her blood alcohol is a moot point. So is the fact that she had THC in her system. She could have smoked pot up to 30 days before boarding the ship and would test positive for it. Also blood alcohol levels for operating a motor vehicle and blood alcohol levels for being able to function are totally different. No one is questioning her personal responsibility in this issue ( at least on this thread) the only thing we are question is the response and care given to her by the medical and other staff aboard the ship.

 

I understand that the medical service provided is "one" of the questions, my point is that passengers shouldn't think that medical facilities aboard a cruise ship are the same as at their local hospital, if they were, there would never be a reason to "medically evacuate" someone from the ship. Knowing this, every passenger must use common sense and be responsible, knowing that if an emergency situation should arise procedures are different then at home.

As for the difference in blood alcohol levels regarding operating a car and being on a cruise ship, intoxicated is intoxicated period. Alcohol effects everyone differently and in this case her family, according to the suit, observed that she got intoxicated while at the casino. She chose to drink into intoxication, no one forced her to.

THC can stay in the hair for up to thirty days however, I have never seen an autopsy toxicology report (and I have attended far too many autopsies and reviewed far too many reports) where hair was tested for drugs versus blood. If in the blood, it was used very recent.

If the medical staff could have prevented her death and they failed to do so that falls on them. In a civil suit, unlike a criminal complaint, her actions play into the facts that a jury or judge must take into consideration when looking at the ENTIRE set of circumstances.

[andr3a]

I re-read the article for in-depth and several things go through my head from either end of the story.

 

I'm a nurse, though not an emergency nurse so I will not pretend to be an expert of any sort. :) I'm mostly interested because I was on the cruise where this took place.

 

I'm aware of the dram shop act, although I wonder if it applies once the ship is out of U.S. waters?

 

I also think it's a tad ridiculous to expect carnival to manage *every* passenger who is exceedingly drunk. Isn't that kind of the name of the game on a cruise ship? I know they do cut people off, but that's a small percentage I imagine.

 

Sounds like the pit boss did make an attempt to have the woman pace herself. DBF brought up a good point, and asked "4 drinks over what time period?" The story says she got there at 9pm, and left at 12am, a 3 hour time frame, assume she consumed the 4 drinks in 2 hours, still not necessarily a huge reason for concern on the pit boss' part. If she downed them one after another...I personally think that would have prompted more concern.

 

If I were her mother I don't think I'd have let my daughter stumble back to her room on a possibly rocking ship unattended. Given that the article focuses on her mother's "concern" anyway. I dunno...

 

I do wonder why crew members came before a nurse, but then we don't know how the accident was reported when help was requested.

 

"She had an accident in the bathroom" is far less concerning than "She cut herself on a broken glass and is bleeding a lot!"

 

Not saying they shouldn't be at fault but it's little things like this that can make *all* the difference.

 

As a nurse, I wonder how severe the cut looked on arrival, sounds like she applied a pressure dressing, which is appropriate. If the bleeding was not excessive at that time the nurse may have had no idea an artery had been cut. Usually an arterial bleed out happens far quicker than an hour if it's noticeably severe.

 

The woman was alert according to mom, but the nurse was using smelling salts. If the woman was noticeably inebriated (I bet she was) maybe the nurse was trying to get an accurate assessment of the woman's mental status. Being drunk could definitely mask the severity of her physical condition from the injury.

 

I'm really confused as to why there are no available stretchers on a cruise ship. It doesn't make sense. There should be a stretcher/gurney that can fit on the elevator.

 

Personally, I wonder why when the transportation seemed to be a big problem, the nurse wouldn't go ahead and get in touch with the Dr., if there were overt signs of bleeding out, or severe shock, I would think this would be appropriate. Did the woman show these signs? Was the nurse taking vital signs? I don't know, maybe it seemed like a general laceration without arterial complication...again, I don't know.

 

On the whole, I find the story heavily suspicious and one-sided. I'm not saying there was not fault on the part of Carnival and its medical staff. But I do think in these cases the plaintiffs feel the need to add ribbons and bows to their story.

 

I hope if they don't already they get some gosh-darn stretchers on the ships!!! :P

[Tuffy1129]

It's not her drunken state - BTW it's the amount of blood loss - she needed to be moved to MED - ASAP - supine - in a reclining position to reduce blood loss - sober person suffering same trauma would have most likely had same outcome because of the arterial bleed.

[Tuffy1129]

I will pray for her and her family on Sunday and as I run the sound for our contempory christian rock service - God be with all of you who roll that way.

[mamaskittles]

Know what? She was alert to what was going on.

OK I'll bite :D. Unless you are trained to know that a patient experiencing massive blood loss must be transported in a supine position.

Unless you are trained to know a patient suffering from massive blood loss will go into shock because of the blood loss.

Unless you are trained to know a tourniquet should be applied.

Unless you are trained to know when to get the physician because you are in the weeds.

Unless you are trained to know someone may appear fully conscious but in fact may be slipping away.

There are many more unless you's but I bet you won't bite.:D

[jonbgd]

THC can stay in the hair for up to thirty days however, I have never seen an autopsy toxicology report (and I have attended far too many autopsies and reviewed far too many reports) where hair was tested for drugs versus blood. If in the blood, it was used very recent.

.

SInce it sounds like you have a little experience (not your first rodeo) Im not disagreeing with you about the hair testing.

It has also been a few years since I have been hands on

But..... I used to be on call to assist the Path MD @ another hospital to do the posts. So this is what I learned over the years.

The 30 days came from me as this what a lab would say as an approximation

While an Infrequent user it may not show after a few days if someone was a heavy smoker It can show in the blood for at least 2-3 weeks (and alot longer in urine) but has been know to be tested 45 days later. It also depends on what test the lab was running if it was THC or the metabolite

Also Im thinking it depends on what state the actual lab test was performed. Im not sure all forensic posts have the same SOP.

So mine is based on info from the SF bay area

 

BTW for everyone not familar with a post it is short for a post mortem or in lay terms..... Autopsy

[whitecap]

SInce it sounds like you have a little experience (not your first rodeo) Im not disagreeing with you about the hair testing.

It has also been a few years since I have been hands on

But..... I used to be on call to assist the Path MD @ another hospital to do the posts. So this is what I learned over the years.

The 30 days came from me as this what a lab would say as an approximation

While an Infrequent user it may not show after a few days if someone was a heavy smoker It can show in the blood for at least 2-3 weeks (and alot longer in urine) but has been know to be tested 45 days later. It also depends on what test the lab was running if it was THC or the metabolite

Also Im thinking it depends on what state the actual lab test was performed. Im not sure all forensic posts have the SOP So mine is based on info from the SF bay area

 

Agree.

[EastTex]

AIR FORCE Ok How was the country club:p:DJK

 

 

 

My wife, who was an Air Force Flight Nurse for 30 years, would say the AF was the best country club in the world. :)

[RuthlessBoss]

We use a thing called the Glascow Coma Scale. There are many levels of alertness. I am willing to bet she scored in the middle to lower end of the scale and was showing signs of hypoperfusion and shock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Coma_Scale

True. I was merely going by the article, the way it was written.

[jonbgd]

My wife, who was an Air Force Flight Nurse for 30 years, would say the AF was the best country club in the world. :)

So true compared to what we had in the Navy and especially when I was with the Marines:eek: Airforce always the newest and best since they are the private chauffer of the Pres:cool:

 

But I respect all my fellow veterans now matter how cushy thier living quarters are:D

 

So do you still have to salute your wife(Colonel?)

[EastTex]

So true compared to what we had in the Navy and especially when I was with the Marines:eek: Airforce always the newest and best since they are the private chauffer of the Pres:cool:

 

But I respect all my fellow veterans now matter how cushy thier living quarters are:D

 

So do you still have to salute your wife(Colonel?)

 

Oh yes...I'm one step below her in rank and yeah, she had eagles. Since leaving the AF, we joined the Texas State Guard so gave up flight suits for digital.

 

I don't know about the newest and best in stuff...I flew the B-52 which was in the inventory before I went through puberty.

[divingmedic]

Oh yes...I'm one step below her in rank and yeah, she had eagles. Since leaving the AF, we joined the Texas State Guard so gave up flight suits for digital.

 

I don't know about the newest and best in stuff...I flew the B-52 which was in the inventory before I went through puberty.

 

I took a few flights in the B-52. My last base was Minot. Why no Minot, Freezing is the reason.

[songbird1329]

Keep in mind that what you read is a soundbite, a sum mary of the argument tbe plaintiff's attorney intends to make.

 

 

You do not have the facts about what was done on the ship. You do not know what is acceptable medical care on a cruise ship or whether the care she received fell below that standard.

[RuthlessBoss]

Keep in mind that what you read is a soundbite, a sum mary of the argument tbe plaintiff's attorney intends to make.

 

 

You do not have the facts about what was done on the ship. You do not know what is acceptable medical care on a cruise ship or whether the care she received fell below that standard.

Absolutely true.

 

But we have our "at home" know it alls, who think they were there! God forbid if we post a thought other than what they picture in their head. None of us know anything about what happened and why. Life doesn't follow a text book teaching, especially when it comes to medical issues.

[sharecruises]

Thats true....this is the lawyers "slant" on this sad accident

 

The "canoe" part is a red flag for me...I seriously doubt they have "canoes" on the ship, I do think it was probably some sort of "ship stretcher"

 

My guess is that Carnival will settle for something with the family rather than drag this out, we probably won't know all the facts ever