Bait and Switch?

[commodoredave]

A credit is not adequate in my view. You should be compensated in cash for the difference in price between what you paid and the lower category suite you got. If NCL is not willing to pay you the cash, you have several options including Conde Nast Traveller, Chris Elliott, or a law suit.

[ducklite]

A credit is not adequate in my view. You should be compensated in cash for the difference in price between what you paid and the lower category suite you got. If NCL is not willing to pay you the cash, you have several options including Conde Nast Traveller, Chris Elliott, or a law suit.

 

 

This. Look at it this way. If you bought a car and got to the dealer to pick it up and they gave you a KIA instead of the Mercedes you had paid for, would you take a credit to buy another car? Of course not. You would want you what you paid for, or the cash difference. You probably wouldn't even want to buy from that dealer in the future due to their shady business practices. They owe you a cash refund. A check. That doesn't bounce. That way you can plan your travel the way you want, and not be forced into spending more money with a cruise line that has already proven to be disrespectful and unsavory in their business practices.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

[athe0007]

A credit is not adequate in my view. You should be compensated in cash for the difference in price between what you paid and the lower category suite you got. If NCL is not willing to pay you the cash, you have several options including Conde Nast Traveller, Chris Elliott, or a law suit.

 

As should be obvious by now I've been pretty naive about all this. When I went back and looked at the ticket contract (which I think is industry standard) I learned:

1) To be able to sue you have to notify them in writing of your complaint within 30 days of the end of the cruise (I've done that) and file within one year.

2) If you sue, you have to do it in their home jurisdiction, in other words Miami.

3) I don't know how binding it is, but I might have agreed to arbitration (in Miami).

 

I think I'm pretty much reliant on their generosity, unless you know a good attorney in Florida. I never heard back from Conde Nast, but I think I'll follow your advice and get back to Chris Elliott who was nice enough to reply to me personally.

 

Thanks for your advice.

[nana541]

As should be obvious by now I've been pretty naive about all this. When I went back and looked at the ticket contract (which I think is industry standard) I learned:

 

1) To be able to sue you have to notify them in writing of your complaint within 30 days of the end of the cruise (I've done that) and file within one year.

 

2) If you sue, you have to do it in their home jurisdiction, in other words Miami.

 

3) I don't know how binding it is, but I might have agreed to arbitration (in Miami).

 

 

 

I think I'm pretty much reliant on their generosity, unless you know a good attorney in Florida. I never heard back from Conde Nast, but I think I'll follow your advice and get back to Chris Elliott who was nice enough to reply to me personally.

 

 

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

 

Chris Elliott is absolutely the way to go especially now that you have the "offer" he writes for several large magazines and newspapers and will find your case very very interesting for his readers.

Make sure to make his job easier by have all your "evidence" together and hopefully you have a copy of the website of the cabin you paid for vs what you actually got!

 

Good luck and report back, but I'll be watching the Chris Elliott website because I know absolutely he won't he able to resist your case!

 

Now plan a cruise just for you and your wife, you two really deserve a special cruise and I think the Mediterranean would be perfect. :)

 

 

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[athe0007]

Now plan a cruise just for you and your wife, you two really deserve a special cruise and I think the Mediterranean would be perfect. :)

 

We've never taken a vacation without them! For a number of reasons I can't imagine doing it. For one thing, I'm older and ten years ago I had a health scare that made me unsure if I would have another year with them. Now I've had ten and in five more (not really a long time) one of them will be going to college, so I think I'll just treasure the years we have left and if my luck holds my wife and I can do cruises together after we're on our own. :)

[commodoredave]

As should be obvious by now I've been pretty naive about all this. When I went back and looked at the ticket contract (which I think is industry standard) I learned:

1) To be able to sue you have to notify them in writing of your complaint within 30 days of the end of the cruise (I've done that) and file within one year.

2) If you sue, you have to do it in their home jurisdiction, in other words Miami.

3) I don't know how binding it is, but I might have agreed to arbitration (in Miami).

 

I think I'm pretty much reliant on their generosity, unless you know a good attorney in Florida. I never heard back from Conde Nast, but I think I'll follow your advice and get back to Chris Elliott who was nice enough to reply to me personally.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

Conde Nast takes a while to get back to people, so you may still hear. I'll get back to you with Miami lawyer later as company is about to arrive for dinner. :)

[nana541]

We've never taken a vacation without them! For a number of reasons I can't imagine doing it. For one thing, I'm older and ten years ago I had a health scare that made me unsure if I would have another year with them. Now I've had ten and in five more (not really a long time) one of them will be going to college, so I think I'll just treasure the years we have left and if my luck holds my wife and I can do cruises together after we're on our own. :)

 

 

I respect your reason.... At our house when the kids were growing up we did it slightly different, every year or as best we could manage we did "one week with the kids and one week of US time" the stress of raising children and just everyday life sometimes calls for a break! But enjoy each and every day they grew up too fast and no one can tell you today what the future will bring!

 

PS and the Grandmas loved having these special times with favorite children knowing they could spoil them and then send them home :)

 

 

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[athe0007]

I respect your reason....

 

It is the reason a two bedroom was important and why I was willing to pay so much more for it. It was the way my wife and I could have some private moments and be on a cruise with our children at the same time. Unfortunately, it didn't quite work out. Now I'm not sure we'll have that opportunity again. :(

 

I don't think their grandparents could survive for more than a couple of days. I was an only child and I always thought that brothers would love each other and get along famously. I didn't realize that one of the major tasks of parenting is refereeing. I think my older son really took the "No David!" books to heart, yet being a husband and a parent are the greatest things that have ever happened to me. :)

Edited January 27, 2014 by athe0007

[Trishpk]

I get that totally. Our "big" cruise is for similar reasons… DH is older, there are some health issues that makes this probably our first and last as a family. we need some good memories. I'm hoping that these concerns will not put a huge damper on this trip. we're booked into 7178…

[athe0007]

I get that totally. Our "big" cruise is for similar reasons… DH is older, there are some health issues that makes this probably our first and last as a family. we need some good memories. I'm hoping that these concerns will not put a huge damper on this trip. we're booked into 7178…

 

Trish, Thanks for your understanding. I would contact NCL and ask them to verify the configuration of the cabin (in writing). It is a wonderful cruise. No need to be passive about it. I don't think they openly lied to us, they just remained silent. Unless you consider classifying a one room suite as a two bedroom and leaving an obsolete floor plan up on their website for months lying ... and then compensating you with a credit you can't afford to use. :cool: Hey! I think I'm starting to get a little upset. ;)

Edited January 27, 2014 by athe0007

[Algebralovr]

We all get it, really!

 

Since you are from Minnesota, and it gets quite cold there fairly early, what about seeing if they will make the credit good through the end of the currently available bookings. Then, see if there is a cruise in Dec, Jan, Feb or March of 2015 that you cod enjoy and make payments on? Flying to FL isn't nearly as pricy as flying to HI! You could also see about the sailings out of NY, again since there are more choices in flights.

 

I know all about pulling kids out of school, but if your health is precarious, they are well worth it.

 

I made mine take all their winter finals early one year, because the prices on cruises the week before Christmas was a bargain and the week of Christmas was stupid expensive. The only thing planned at school that week was reviewing and final exams. If I had it to do again, I would still have pulled them out of school that week.

[ducklite]

Trish, Thanks for your understanding. I would contact NCL and ask them to verify the configuration of the cabin (in writing). It is a wonderful cruise. No need to be passive about it. I don't think they openly lied to us, they just remained silent. Unless you consider classifying a one room suite as a two bedroom and leaving an obsolete floor plan up on their website for months lying ... and then compensating you with a credit you can't afford to use. :cool: Hey! I think I'm starting to get a little upset. ;)

 

 

Maybe not an "lie" but certainly fraud by taking your money knowing that they weren't going to deliver what they had offered to sell you.

 

 

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Edited January 27, 2014 by ducklite

[nana541]

Maybe not an "lie" but certainly fraud by taking your money knowing that they weren't going to deliver what they had offered to sell you.

 

 

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Can't wait for Chris Elliott to dig his teeth into this mess! Fraud pretty much sums it up. They took the OP money when they "they knew or should have known" the cabin he purchased did not exist!

 

 

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[njhorseman]

Maybe not an "lie" but certainly fraud by taking your money knowing that they weren't going to deliver what they had offered to sell you.

 

 

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Can't wait for Chris Elliott to dig his teeth into this mess! Fraud pretty much sums it up. They took the OP money when they "they knew or should have known" the cabin he purchased did not exist!

 

 

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Fraud? Really? Do you seriously think the cruise line intentionally deceived passengers? Intent is required for fraud. (Not to mention "bait and switch", which is even a more ridiculous accusation.)

 

Did the cruise line make a serious error? Yes. Is the OP entitled to some type of redress for the error? Yes. Was there fraud? Not in the least.

[nana541]

Fraud? Really? Do you seriously think the cruise line intentionally deceived passengers? Intent is required for fraud. (Not to mention "bait and switch", which is even a more ridiculous accusation.)

 

 

 

Did the cruise line make a serious error? Yes. Is the OP entitled to some type of redress for the error? Yes. Was there fraud? Not in the least.

 

 

Not being an attorney and I'm sure the Cruiseline has hundreds, however, somewhere in the statutes I believe you will find something about "issues known or SHOULD have been known".

I believe that the "arrogance" of this situation is amazing, this was not a simple error.... This was a known issue and still the Cruiseline did not correct their website but continued to advertise and sell that cabin as a 2 bedroom suite to unsuspecting passengers long after the "refit" and the ship returning to service.

A corporation needs to be held accountable even if "the right hand doesn't care what the left hand does".

 

This was a known issue and if not out and out fraud then what was it and who should carry the responsibility for the loss suffered by the OP??

 

So if you had paid for a 2 bedroom suite and ended up with a regular single cabin what would you call it?

 

Maybe I'll just call it "theft by deception" yep I'll stick with that definition.

 

Just my two cents....

 

 

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Edited January 27, 2014 by nana541

[ducklite]

Fraud? Really? Do you seriously think the cruise line intentionally deceived passengers? Intent is required for fraud. (Not to mention "bait and switch", which is even a more ridiculous accusation.)

 

Did the cruise line make a serious error? Yes. Is the OP entitled to some type of redress for the error? Yes. Was there fraud? Not in the least.

 

Yes, I think they intentionally defrauded their passengers. They absolutely knew that the cabins had been completely reconfigured, yet sold them as a 2BR when the reality was they weren't even technically a 1BR. Are you saying that the shipyard completely remodeled this category of cabin without the knowledge of the corporation? That goes against all reason.

 

Additionally, this was not the first complaint, the cruise line well knew at least a month before the OP cruised that they were not going to deliver what was sold, and chose to ignore the problem rather than addressing it--thereby forming intent. Had it been a situation where the suite the OP booked had to be taken out of service due to emergency repairs and the OP was downgraded, no, there would be no fraud in that case. In this case, there was fraud as the cruise line knew that the cabin the OP had booked was materially different than what would be delivered and took the OP's money anyhow. If that isn't intent to defraud, I don't know what is.

[nana541]

Thank you so much for adding your thoughts to the conversation!

Bottom line is that no matter what you or I think or the legions of legal beagles think..... The OP did not get the cruise or accommodations he paid for!

 

 

For his sake I hope that he is able to get a resolution that fits his loss.

 

You seem to feel you have legal expertise so let's just put a few words that might fit the cruise lines handling of this issue, feel free to add as many as you would like!

 

1. Misrepresentation (my favorite)

2. Theft (ex paid for a BMW and they delivered a Chevy)

3. Deceitful (employees of the cruise line knew of the issue and did it anyway)

4. Arrogance (we can do anything we want read the contract of carriage)

5. Incompetence (issue known by various Cruiseline employees but no one seemed to think to take ownership and fix it)

 

I have a feeling like all or many large corporations have many departments and are very isolated from each other...many people knew about this but it was not their job so the cabin issue just stayed on the books and "someone else"was always

the person who was suppose to make the website correction!

 

Common sense is what was lacking and as I stated before I am not a lawyer but a cruiser who loves to travel!

 

And hoping the OP can afford to take the trip he actually signed up for....

 

 

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[commodoredave]

There's a legal firm in Miami called Walker and O'Neil who specialize in litigation with cruise lines. Your case may not be big enough for them, but they are good people who might refer you somewhere else if they cannot help.

You can reach Jim Walker at jimatcruiselawdotcom

[athe0007]

There's a legal firm in Miami called Walker and O'Neil who specialize in litigation with cruise lines. Your case may not be big enough for them, but they are good people who might refer you somewhere else if they cannot help.

 

Thanks so much Dave! I'm still hoping to workout something with them directly. On the advice of people here and elsewhere I'm currently working my way up the corporate ladder. I'll keep everybody here updated. I really appreciate all the suggestions, advice, and support I've received here. I would have been lost without it.

 

The thought occurred to me how ironic it is that the ship's name is "The Pride of America."

[nana541]

Please follow up with Chris Elliott!!

 

 

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[commodoredave]

Thanks so much Dave! I'm still hoping to workout something with them directly. On the advice of people here and elsewhere I'm currently working my way up the corporate ladder. I'll keep everybody here updated. I really appreciate all the suggestions, advice, and support I've received here. I would have been lost without it.

 

The thought occurred to me how ironic it is that the ship's name is "The Pride of America."

 

Yes, truly ironic!

The exec you want to speak to at NCL is Andrew Stuart, Executive Vice President of Global Sales and Passenger Services. I met him at the Miami Cruise Shipping conference a few years ago and he came across as a really nice guy who put customers first.

Some may recall him from a CNN TV program about cruising which featured NCL.

[athe0007]

The exec you want to speak to at NCL is Andrew Stuart, Executive Vice President of Global Sales and Passenger Services.

 

Thanks. I have not yet worked my way up the reference list to Mr. Stuart, but I watched several interviews with him on YouTube, seems like a nice, down-to-earth guy. What struck me is the scale of what he manages, 12 ships, one of which alone carries 4000 passengers and here I am scraping with them over a sum, that for them, wouldn't even be an accounting rounding error or a perk to a good customer.

 

 

After seeing what customer service was like for my grandparents in the Fifties I am always astounded that corporations go though so many contortions to avoid admitting they made a mistake, apologizing, doing the right thing, and moving on. I have trouble believing that it's not worth its weight in good will and word of mouth positive PR. I get this nightmare image in my head of MBAs in conference rooms arguing about profit curves without any conception how their decisions impact their customers.

Edited January 28, 2014 by athe0007

[ducklite]

Thanks. I have not yet worked my way up the reference list to Mr. Stuart, but I watched several interviews with him on YouTube, seems like a nice, down-to-earth guy. What struck me is the scale of what he manages, 12 ships, one of which alone carries 4000 passengers and here I am scraping with them over a sum, that for them, wouldn't even be an accounting rounding error or a perk to good customer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After seeing what customer service was like for my grandparents in the Fifties I am always astounded that corporations go though so many contortions to avoid admitting they made a mistake, apologizing, doing the right thing, and moving on. I have trouble believing that it's not worth its weight in good will and word of mouth positive PR. I get this nightmare image in my head of MBAs in conference rooms arguing about profit curves without any conception how their decisions impact their customers.

 

 

I think that far too many bean counters haven't got a clue as to how negatively a story like yours can hurt their bottom line by scaring off new passengers and being the straw that broke the camels back for existing customers who might look to other lines as a result. Social media has changed the guest service game, and the sooner some of these lines figure that out, the more profitable they will be in the long run.

 

 

Autocorrect responsible for most typos...

[athe0007]

I think that far too many bean counters haven't got a clue as to how negatively a story like yours can hurt their bottom line by scaring off new passengers and being the straw that broke the camels back for existing customers who might look to other lines as a result. Social media has changed the guest service game, and the sooner some of these lines figure that out, the more profitable they will be in the long run.

 

I was an active member of Netflix when they decided to replace "New Coke," as the primary example in business schools of really stupid corporate decision making. "Oh the arrogance!" ;) It's what happens when you completely ignore your customer base and think you know better than they do.

[athe0007]

Hi All,

 

So I have an update. They offered more compensation, a $4500 credit which expires in one year. That seems pretty reasonable, EXCEPT that we can't afford another vacation next year (other than little local ones in Minnesota, e.g. camping trips :) ). Airfare alone to get to the coast is expensive. Not to mention that my wife would be angry with me if I were to take her away from her work again so soon. :rolleyes:

 

So to help evaluate how reasonable this offer is I need to ask you for more advice!

 

We originally paid ~$10,000 for the two bedroom (four people). The most similar two bedroom they're offering in 2015 is ~$13,000. That makes the $4500 credit look really tiny. But I'm not sure if I'm paying way too much when I book directly with NCL or whether I might save much more by booking with a TA. What is your experience?

 

Also I have some information that you might find useful in the future if things go wrong. First, I need to correct a mistake. If you have notified them in writing within 30 days you must file a lawsuit (I think only in small claims court) within 6 months (previously I said 1 year). As far as I can understand the ticket contract you are bound to arbitration, except that you can file in small claims court. This would have worked well for us because the limit in Minnesota is, coincidentally, $10,000. EXCEPT, to sue in Minnesota they have to be a registered business here, which it doesn't appear they are. I think this means that I would have to file in Miami. This is just what I've discover banging around on my own. Someone who actually knows their way around the law might be aware of other avenues. I'm still optimistic that I can ultimately work things out with NCL so I haven't yet consulted an attorney, either here or in Miami. "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven." I'm glad NCL hasn't made their offer contingent on my silence.