Cruise safety in Middle East

[Hlitner]

Reading Slidergirl's post makes her one of my favorite posters :). Totally agree with everything she says, but I think we are in the minority of Americans who are quickly terrified by the least intimidation (and now it seems that our federal government is also of this mindset). When DW and I flew to Egypt (an American Jewish boy in Egypt?) for a 2 week visit (on our own) many of our friends and family thought we were totally nutz. It turned out to be one of our favorite trips and we loved traveling throughout Egypt (from Abu Simbal in the south to Alexandria in the North). Turkey remains among our favorite countries to visit (we even convinced DD to spend 10 days traveling in Turkey last year) despite a few nasty incidents (we have plenty of those in our own country).

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

I think Cruisemom42 (my virtual sister ;) ) thought of CB's sentence the same way; That the people in the Middle East are "crazed" and do NOT like the Godless Americans.

 

Nailed it. ;) Didn't think I was that unclear but I guess I was....

[icat2000]

 

Many of these places you do have to see through your own eyes and not through the eyes of the 7x24 news that tries to make everything sensational.

 

Keith

 

LIKELY like.

 

I have no issue going through the Suez. I'm looking at putting together something in November/December 2016.

[Keith1010]

I know I've posted a lot here but that is because of 7x24 news that focuses on the sensationalism it has made the entire Middle East look very scary to the vast majority of people. As I said earlier they did likewise with the demonstrations in Athens, Istanbul, and Hong Kong.

 

There are many safe places to visit in the Middle East and some of these places are much safer than many places around the world including the selected areas of the USA.

 

Like most things in live, you have to do the research. There are places in Los Angeles, and Chicago, and New Orleans and in countless areas that you do not want to be walking around day or night. But do you avoid these cities because of that? No. You do the research.

 

To me a good part of travel is discovery and we are fortunate that we live in a time where that is possible. We have learned so very much from our travels and that includes visits to the Middle East. In fact, because of these visits I believe we have a better appreciation of world wide events, and often because of these visits we have developed our own thoughts on why certain issues exist today including the issues related to Jerusalem.

 

You would be amazed at many of these cities if you have not yet visited them. Some of them make our own country look a bit third world.

 

Yes, at the same time, a drive from say to the Lost City of Petra (which by the way is one of the most amazing places I have ever visited in my life) would allow you to see that some people live similarly to those from hundreds of years ago.

 

The world is amazing and I feel very fortunate that we have been able to visit places that those from previous generations never visited and places that as a youngster I thought we would only visit via a book at the library.

 

There are places in the Caribbean that I find to be much more unsafe than that of the Middle East even, just walking a few blocks from the port at St. Lucia.

 

Keith

[sail7seas]

I was not implying you. Just commenting on the interpretation of the "crazed" statement. Trying to help you with figuring out what Cruisemom42 interpreted. You questioned and I tried to answer…

 

 

Thank you for your efforts. Most appreciated.

 

 

Nailed it. ;) Didn't think I was that unclear but I guess I was....

 

 

 

Speaking only for myself, I fully understood. I simply do not agree.

 

[moniquet]

I do not think 24/7 news is sensationalist when cruise ship tourists are shown being massacred in a Tunisian museum or shot on a Tunisian beach or shot by mistake on a tourist bus in Egypt. The facts speak for themselves.

[Keith1010]

I do not think 24/7 news is sensationalist when cruise ship tourists are shown being massacred in a Tunisian museum or shot on a Tunisian beach or shot by mistake on a tourist bus in Egypt. The facts speak for themselves.

 

So, what is the alternative, stay home.

 

I can show you tragedies from around the world.

 

My point is take Israel. About the only time it gets coverage is if something bad happens whereas on most days of the year there is so much goodness there. I can go place by place.

 

How about Hong Kong. We get weeks of coverage about the demonstrations. Same for Istanbul. Same for Bangkok. But then we get no coverage when things are right.

 

Yes, at least in our country if something happens, everything else is dropped and it is analyzed and analyzed and analyzed........

 

Keith

[cruisemom42]

I do not think 24/7 news is sensationalist when cruise ship tourists are shown being massacred in a Tunisian museum or shot on a Tunisian beach or shot by mistake on a tourist bus in Egypt. The facts speak for themselves.

 

The OP is not stopping in Tunisia (nor is it part of the "Middle East").

 

The Mexican tourists shot in Egypt were in the Western desert, near Libya, not a place where anyone on a cruise is EVER going to be, given the constraints of timing....

[moniquet]

I was giving an example:rolleyes: could happen anywhere in the region!

[cruisemom42]

I was giving an example:rolleyes: could happen anywhere in the region!

 

But that is like saying murders could happen anywhere in London (or New York, etc.) when you know from existing data that they are much more likely to occur in certain riskier areas.....

 

Taken to a meta level, isn't it true that a terrorist attack could happen anywhere in the world? I imagine any tourists in Boston before the marathon bombing or in Paris before the Charlie Hebdo attack felt perfectly safe -- and I don't see people saying you should stay away from Boston or Paris....

Edited November 12, 2015 by cruisemom42

[Keith1010]

The odds of someone getting attacked in places including Oman, Jordan and Israel are far lower than in so many places including many in the USA.

 

I wonder how many of those who are fearful of these areas have ever visited them.

 

I think if they had, they would understand.

 

Keith

[Hlitner]

I do not think 24/7 news is sensationalist when cruise ship tourists are shown being massacred in a Tunisian museum or shot on a Tunisian beach or shot by mistake on a tourist bus in Egypt. The facts speak for themselves.

 

Tunesia is not in the Middle East...but is part of North Africa. And we have been to Tunesia 3 times and enjoyed the experience. The massacre in Tunis was awful as was the attack on the Twin Towers, at Fort Polk, the Boston Marathon, Austin TX, etc. Those facts also speak for themselves but not sure what that has to do with travel.

 

Hank

[Keith1010]

Tunesia is not in the Middle East...but is part of North Africa. And we have been to Tunesia 3 times and enjoyed the experience. The massacre in Tunis was awful as was the attack on the Twin Towers, at Fort Polk, the Boston Marathon, Austin TX, etc. Those facts also speak for themselves but not sure what that has to do with travel.

 

Hank

 

Add in the Movie Theatre with the Batman Premier, the Connecticut School Killings, 9/11, London Bombings, Madrid Train Bombings. How about the killings in Australia in 2014? How about the killings in France? How about all of the killings each day in Chicago? How about the people killed in a taxi in Barbados, how about the tourists each year who are killed in St. Thomas? How about????????????How about?????????????

 

Like I've said, if you don't want to take risk, don't travel.

 

Keith

[sail7seas]

The odds of someone getting attacked in places including Oman, Jordan and Israel are far lower than in so many places including many in the USA.

 

I wonder how many of those who are fearful of these areas have ever visited them.

 

I think if they had, they would understand.

 

Keith

 

There is no failure to understand.

There are varying opinions and not all of us feel the same way about visiting all parts of the world. I have not read in this thread anyone told someone else what to do but rather they are stating what they plan to do. Just because someone disagrees with me does not mean they are wrong. It also does not mean they are right. It is their personal choice where to travel as it is mine.

It's as easy as that.

 

[Keith1010]

Yep, I am passionate about this one because the media does sensationalize items.

 

In fact, I've been in places at the same time the media is reporting about them and they are so over the top that nothing they show comes close to the experience we have.

 

Oh well. Happy Cruising.

 

Keith

[icat2000]

I was in Egypt six weeks after they torched the President office and they still protesting on Fridays in the square. It was fine. The great thing about was no tourists. I saw all the sights without the hordes of people.

 

There are bad eggs in all societies.

 

There are some parts of the USA I would feel a bit uneasy in because of all of the gun crime. However, it hasn't stopped me from visiting the USA.

Edited November 13, 2015 by icat2000

[moniquet]

Yep, I am passionate about this one because the media does sensationalize items.

 

In fact, I've been in places at the same time the media is reporting about them and they are so over the top that nothing they show comes close to the experience we have.

 

Oh well. Happy Cruising.

 

Keith

 

The media were "over the top" reporting the Tunisian massacres:confused: bombs in Beruit yesterday, they must be kidding:).

[Keith1010]

My point is that the way the news is reported if something happens in one area they make it out to be much more widespread than it is whether that is Hong Kong, Istanbul or Jerusalem. Did people stop coming to Boston after the horrific event that occurred there. How about France? How about Chicago which is an everyday occurrence.

 

I am not saying that all areas are safe in the Middle East as that is not the case but many of the places listed in the OP's post are as safe or safer than many places in my own country.

 

And because the news media is now challenged to fill the 7x24 time and because they have to make it sensational often they go over the top in their reporting.

 

You know. Everything today is breaking news including the cat that is stuck on a tree.

 

Keith

[realpersonuk]

If you won't take the cruise, I will.:D

 

A further word or two about risks....

 

First, I hope it is clear that none of the places listed by the original poster are considered risky enough by the US State Department to have a Travel Warning or Alert issued regarding travel there. The sole exception is Israel, and the Travel Warning only includes portions of the country where tourists do not usually end up (e.g., the West Bank didn't and Gaza).

 

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings.html

 

If these areas are as risky as supposed by some here, why haven't warnings been issued? Absent such guidance, shouldn't the presumption be that it is not "too risky' to undertake travel to these places?

 

Second, there are a lot of odd analogies being used regarding risk. I've spent some time trying to come up with a more valid comparison, and I think I have done so:

 

Cruise ship-sponsored excursions are praised by many on Cruise Critic as safe and reliable. Like a cruise to the Middle East, they are solely undertaken for the enjoyment of the person involved, and no one is "required" to do either one involuntarily (leaving aside the question of staff).

 

If we look at ship-sponsored excursions over the past 5 years or so, there have been a number of incidents that have occurred, leading to fatalities, including:

 

-- 8 HAL passengers killed in flightseeing crash in Alaska

-- 1 person killed in zip line fall on cruise excursion in Puerto Rico

-- 1 person killed when struck by a truck on excursion in Belize

-- 1 person killed (and 3 injured) on an Arctic zodiac boat excursion

-- 2 pax killed in Mexico on RCCL dune buggy excursion

-- 9 pax killed (14 injured) in excursion bus crash in Morocco

-- 1 person killed and 2 seriously injured in Princess tour bus crash in Tortola

-- the fatality mentioned earlier by Hank, killed on a Carnival excursion in St. Thomas

 

So....perhaps we should all stop taking shore excursions. They appear to be very risky. :cool:

 

During this same period of time, I cannot find a single instance of a cruise passenger being killed in any of the ports mentioned by the OP.

 

You seem knowledgeable. What's your opinion? We had Israel celebrity cruises celebration , cancelled 40hours prior to embarkation. Worse still we didn't realize Istanbul had been dropped as an overnighter. We booked in September, and real mad nobody told us of celebrity concerns with Istanbul. Might have changed whether we booked or not. To lose Israel was the worst. Ship in our opinion was one around 70% full, if that. Pool area was three parts empty

 

Really mad as we were cancelled on celebrity cruises celebration 40 hours before embarkation. And we were never informed of Istanbul itinerary change when we booked in September . We just believed Istanbul was an overnight. Not realizing celebrity had security concerns

 

Should they not have warned us on 05 September 2015 about worries with Istanbul. Its like we overnighter in total ignorance. But loved Istanbul.

[Hlitner]

You seem knowledgeable. What's your opinion? We had Israel celebrity cruises celebration , cancelled 40hours prior to embarkation. Worse still we didn't realize Istanbul had been dropped as an overnighter. We booked in September, and real mad nobody told us of celebrity concerns with Istanbul. Might have changed whether we booked or not. To lose Israel was the worst. Ship in our opinion was one around 70% full, if that. Pool area was three parts empty

 

Really mad as we were cancelled on celebrity cruises celebration 40 hours before embarkation. And we were never informed of Istanbul itinerary change when we booked in September . We just believed Istanbul was an overnight. Not realizing celebrity had security concerns

 

Should they not have warned us on 05 September 2015 about worries with Istanbul. Its like we overnighter in total ignorance. But loved Istanbul.

 

Booking cruises to the Middle East has always been a complete crap shoot as cruise lines seem to change their minds about that region with the change in wind direction. That is why when DW and I decided we wanted to see Egypt we simply got on a plane to Germany and flew Egyptair from Germany to Cairo where we spent 2 weeks traveling around Egypt on our own! We simply wanted to see the country and not be subject to the whims of cruise lines and/or tour companies. While cruise line tours from Alexandria to Cairo historically travel in large buses with armed guards, we actually drove that same route in a normal car with our hired Egyptian driver. And at the last minute we had our driver detour over to a Coptic Monastery (a really interesting experience as the Monk who showed us around looked like Rasputin) which is something that is not going to happen when you are part of a bus convoy!

 

I would also mention that when we go to countries like Tunesia, we tend to go off on our own and avoid large tour groups. The reality is that large groups are historically more dangerous then a couple of tourists. Even the State Department often warns travelers to avoid large groups and try to remain low key (i.e. do not walk around with your cruise card hanging on a lanyard for the world to see). But we also understand the reticence of many travelers to do anything on their own (some will not leave a ship without having a guide to tell them which way to look).

 

So if one wants to visit Israel next year, do you think its wise to do it via a cruise booked now? What are the odds that the ship will actually go to Israel? Maybe yes, maybe no. Such is the dilemma of cruising. If you want to see Israel jump on one of the daily flights and go. If you want to see Turkey, fly over for a few days or weeks.

 

Hank

Edited November 13, 2015 by Hlitner

[cruisemom42]

The media were "over the top" reporting the Tunisian massacres:confused: bombs in Beruit yesterday, they must be kidding:).

 

I don't see your point. OP is not going to either Beirut or Tunisia, and no one has said either place is particularly safe at the moment....

 

I do have to agree that the media are over the top in reporting many of these incidents, including shootings in the US, which (in my own opinion) only encourages others to the same types of acts in order to get the same kind of attention....

[cruisemom42]

You seem knowledgeable. What's your opinion? We had Israel celebrity cruises celebration , cancelled 40hours prior to embarkation. Worse still we didn't realize Istanbul had been dropped as an overnighter. We booked in September, and real mad nobody told us of celebrity concerns with Istanbul. Might have changed whether we booked or not. To lose Israel was the worst. Ship in our opinion was one around 70% full, if that. Pool area was three parts empty

 

Really mad as we were cancelled on celebrity cruises celebration 40 hours before embarkation. And we were never informed of Istanbul itinerary change when we booked in September . We just believed Istanbul was an overnight. Not realizing celebrity had security concerns

 

Should they not have warned us on 05 September 2015 about worries with Istanbul. Its like we overnighter in total ignorance. But loved Istanbul.

 

There have been a couple of long discussions on this particular cruise on the Celebrity boards, where I encourage you to read the comments from others on the cruise.

 

As Hank says above, cruise lines are somewhat notorious in recent years for cancelling ports in areas such as Egypt and Israel with little notice. The kicker for you is that Celebrity made two extremely significant changes to your itinerary and did not provide any offer to change or any compensation. It's my understanding that UK has certain laws that protect customers regarding "significant" changes of itinerary and perhaps you are entitled to something through this path -- it's worth checking.

 

Bottom line for me would be this: while I cruise for the itinerary, I fully understand that any port may be cancelled for a variety of reasons (weather, political unrest, engine problems, dock workers on strike, etc.). If any port or place is overwhelmingly important, I would choose to do a land trip rather than a cruise.

 

Having been on several land trips in Turkey and one in Israel (in addition to numerous cruise visits to each), I can without reservation say you will see more and get more out of a land trip to most places -- and particularly in Israel.

[moniquet]

I don't see your point. OP is not going to either Beirut or Tunisia, and no one has said either place is particularly safe at the moment....

 

I do have to agree that the media are over the top in reporting many of these incidents, including shootings in the US, which (in my own opinion) only encourages others to the same types of acts in order to get the same kind of attention....

 

The OP isn't going to a lot of other places mentioned either, did you ask them what's their point? Actually I was pointing out that a lot of the dead in Tunisia were on cruise ship tours and killers of the same mentality operate in Egypt, Syria, Israel etc.

 

Personally I would stay away from some of the Greek Islands right now. We were in Kos this summer and it was overrun by migrants. Upsetting and at times unpleasant scenes although not exactly dangerous like Egypt.

[moniquet]

Booking cruises to the Middle East has always been a complete crap shoot as cruise lines seem to change their minds about that region with the change in wind direction. That is why when DW and I decided we wanted to see Egypt we simply got on a plane to Germany and flew Egyptair from Germany to Cairo where we spent 2 weeks traveling around Egypt on our own! We simply wanted to see the country and not be subject to the whims of cruise lines and/or tour companies. While cruise line tours from Alexandria to Cairo historically travel in large buses with armed guards, we actually drove that same route in a normal car with our hired Egyptian driver. And at the last minute we had our driver detour over to a Coptic Monastery (a really interesting experience as the Monk who showed us around looked like Rasputin) which is something that is not going to happen when you are part of a bus convoy!

 

I would also mention that when we go to countries like Tunesia, we tend to go off on our own and avoid large tour groups. The reality is that large groups are historically more dangerous then a couple of tourists. Even the State Department often warns travelers to avoid large groups and try to remain low key (i.e. do not walk around with your cruise card hanging on a lanyard for the world to see). But we also understand the reticence of many travelers to do anything on their own (some will not leave a ship without having a guide to tell them which way to look).

 

So if one wants to visit Israel next year, do you think its wise to do it via a cruise booked now? What are the odds that the ship will actually go to Israel? Maybe yes, maybe no. Such is the dilemma of cruising. If you want to see Israel jump on one of the daily flights and go. If you want to see Turkey, fly over for a few days or weeks.

 

Hank

 

Perhaps you were just lucky.:) this July. A Croatian national was kidnapped in the desert out side Cairo. In August he was shown in the usual video and was murdered. Last year a Texan man was also murdered whilst travelling the same route.

[John Bull]

Israel by sea?

Or by land? :confused:

There are pros & cons with each.

 

I can understand Hank's & cruisemom's preferences for a more in-depth land tour. Especially cruisemom, who has a deep interest in things that are very old & very dusty ;)

 

But a cruise - especially one which ports at both Haifa and Ashdod & an overnite at one of them - has its advantages too.

Three days in Israel are sufficient for most folk. Certainly enough for a overview of Nazareth, Sea of Galilee, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Dead Sea & Masada.

If one or both Israeli ports are cancelled at the last minute, travel from home is unaffected, the other ports and the rest of the vacation are unaffected, and although it's a bit of a lottery the captain can do his best to provide good alternate ports in the eastern Med.

 

When things kick-off big-time as they do occasionally & embassies issue travel warnings, those who've booked hotels have to make last-minute arrangements to cancel & look for alternatives elsewhere in the world, or abandon vacation plans altogether. Even if the costs of their cancelled arrangements are covered by insurance that won't cover everything, or the extra cost of late-booking of flights to the alternate, and they miss out on everything they've looked forward to. More especially so if it all starts off after they've arrived. Sharm El Sheikh is a classic example.

 

And times such as now, when the situation in Israel isn't bad enough for travel advisories, those travellers who are as risk-averse as the cruise lines (and there are a number of them contributing to this thread) would welcome the cancellation of Israeli or other ports - if those folks cancelled plans for a land tour their costs probably wouldn't be covered by most insurers.

 

The big potential negative for choosing a cruise is the difference between how risk-averse we are, compared to the cruise line.

But for those who are risk-averse it's undoubtedly the best way for them to visit Israel, and the same goes for plenty of other places in the world that they consider volatile.

 

Tourism to Israel & nearby Arab countries has always been held back by their troubles & uncertainties.

Israel has been on our bucket-list for literally decades, but we waited until the situation was settled. Eventually we realised that things won't settle down in our lifetimes - so we booked a cruise & took the plunge (probably not the best way to phrase it :D).

Had a great time, never felt unsafe, met with nothing but kindness & friendliness from both Israelis & Palestinians.

 

I have no worries about visiting Turkey. Or even Israel or Egypt or Jordan or most Gulf states, and I cringe when I see posts by folk counselling others against travel to those places.

There are now cruises to Lebanon, but that's where I draw the line - and Syria and Iraq are way beyond my line.

 

I get really uptight about those who are so dumb and unworldly about unrest as to counsel against travel to such places as Greek islands or southern Italy, or even the UK. And the USA - yes, there are folk who wouldn't visit that violent country chock-full with evil gun-toting maniacs :rolleyes:

Other than that, each to their own. :)

 

And sorry, Moniquet, but the two examples you've just quoted, each involving a single traveller out of the millions who still visit Egypt, are pretty poor examples. Hank wasn't lucky, it was those two travellers who were unlucky. Folk might more readily take your point if you'd referenced the aircraft which never made it from Sharm to St Petersburg, or the atrocity in Tunisia

 

Just my own take on things.

 

JB :)

Edited November 13, 2015 by John Bull