Rhine water levels 2018 and similar topics

[Mark_T]

Just arrived home after our wonderful 'mystery tour' and I will take the time to post the original itinerary, the proposed modified itinerary and the actual itinerary that we sailed, just so everyone can see what can be accomplished when you have an amazing APT tour director (Anja) and a captain and crew willing to be flexible and responsive to the every changing water levels.

 

I hope that those just starting on the reverse itinerary with APT today are as fortunate as we were, I know they will not have Anja, but I am sure that APT will still do their best to deliver a great cruise whatever the water levels.

[notamermaid]

It has been a slightly rainy day in the Rhine valley (my area) and I made my way earlier today through shopping aisles full of goodies, decorations, festive food and drink, biscuits and chocolates galore. I could not resist... Have the stuff safely stored away until Monday now, but then it is Christmas decorations out and biscuits on the table. Yes!

 

But before that, sorry, the bad news. The river level has fallen at Kaub and a couple of centimetres less still, is forecast. Here are the current levels: Maxau 320cm, Kaub 27cm, Koblenz 24cm.

 

Had a thought, yes, train is awkward from Strasbourg, but if one really wanted to see a market along the way and the Rhine gorge, I suppose one could leave the ship early, get a hotel stay along the way and meet the ship in town X (Antwerp for AmaWaterways cruisers) again. Adventurous, but if one stayed in touch with the ship should not be too much of a problem.

 

notamermaid

 

[RedTexGal]

Hi ... I have been following this thread for awhile. I must say the networking of fellow travelers has been great. Myself I have an upcoming Christmas market cruise with Riviera. The Emily Bronte on the Rhine December 15th-19th. I won’t lie... I’m very concerned 🙁. I have seen how other cruise line have risen to the challenge and others have completely shucked their responsibility. I am reaching out to get feed back from travelers that have had experience with Riviera. I have seen one thread .. that one was from the Danube. That information stated that Riviera cancels 7 days out.. with no modifications🙁. I would rather use the ship as a base and work from there. The cruise is short compared to 8 day cruises I have experienced in the past. Cologne to as far as Rudesheim then back to Cologne.. is what is on the itinerary. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks

[luv2travelandcruise]

I'm on the AMAStella departing Basel 11/26. I have been told that we will do the normal trip up till Strasburg. We will be transferring from Strasburg to Antwerp on day 5 then making stops in Rotterdam, Kinderdjik and Utrecht before arriving in Amsterdam. This info has not been released to fellow travelers even though most will be heading to the airport tomorrow. WHY??? My son was able to get this info for me. I said I would not leave the states until I knew where I would be traveling. I am embracing the change but very disappointed in the lack of communication from AMA. I know it's all last minute decisions but a little bit of information goes a long way. Now I have a cancelled flight (due to Chicago weather!) to deal with! 😩

 

Thanks to all of you for your assistance 🤗

[hbr777]

8 minutes ago, luv2travelandcruise said:

I'm on the AMAStella departing Basel 11/26. I have been told that we will do the normal trip up till Strasburg. We will be transferring from Strasburg to Antwerp on day 5 then making stops in Rotterdam, Kinderdjik and Utrecht before arriving in Amsterdam. This info has not been released to fellow travelers even though most will be heading to the airport tomorrow. WHY??? My son was able to get this info for me. I said I would not leave the states until I knew where I would be traveling. I am embracing the change but very disappointed in the lack of communication from AMA. I know it's all last minute decisions but a little bit of information goes a long way. Now I have a cancelled flight (due to Chicago weather!) to deal with! 😩

 

Thanks to all of you for your assistance 🤗

This is probably my route too and this just stinks. Kindwedijk? Rotterdam? Seriously. 

 

Yes, let’s take Germany and Christmas markets entirely out of a Christmas market cruise. This is nuts.

Edited November 25, 2018 by hbr777

[peregrino]

14 minutes ago, hbr777 said:

This is probably my route too and this just stinks. Kindwedijk? Rotterdam? Seriously. 

 

Yes, let’s take Germany and Christmas markets entirely out of a Christmas market cruise. This is nuts.

 

hbr777, we are concerned that we face something similar with our A to B cruise.  Based on the Mark_T's itinerary, and the fact that levels are now lower, it looks like the alternate A to B cruise misses virtually all of Germany and a lot of the highlights upon which we chose the cruise.

 

Here is some of what we have been recently told:

"Water levels are currently rising and falling frequently, and we are closely monitoring the situation as we work with local river authorities to determine how our upcoming 8 December departure will need to operate. It may well mean that we need to alter the itinerary to suit the conditions. We anticipate being in a better position to make a decision by Friday 30 November"

 

Unfortunately, we are leaving the following morning December 1 from Australia.  That leaves us negligible time to try and arrange a different schedule.

 

Furthermore, the story about levels "rising and falling" is a bit cute, since the levels have never reached a point of being viable.  The implied message is quite different.  This is exactly what notamermaid was saying, about a dire situation being misrepresented as potentially ok.

 

BTW hbr777, Kinderdijk is the "used windmill parking lot" for Dutch windmills - cute, if you haven't seen them before (I have, so it wasn't on my preferred list of sights).  According to recent news they are now occupied as dwellings, and the local residents are apparently fed up with tourists hanging around their private property taking selfies.  Utrecht is cute enough, but Rotterdam is just a modern port, by my reckoning.  Delft is fairly close-by, cute, and more interesting for a stroll.  None of the above is as interesting as the Rhine Gorge, castles and the German Christmas markets!

[orchidj5]

I am curious as to what those of you doing B to A over the next weeks would consider an optimum solution given that a) the river is impassable through the Rhine gorge and unlikely to rise. B) Any transportation and lodging options not utilizing the ships where they are will be expensive for the cruise companies and likely involve significant bus and train travel . The greater the expense of the option the less compensation there is likely to be.If the options are not acceptable you can of course cancel but if you have not been offered that option  by your cruise company there will be no compensation so unless you have cancel for any reason insurance you will be taking the loss.  And if you have lead up or follow on plans in Europe or you booked your own air those plans are equally impacted or dollars lost if you cancel.  So what do any of you see as the optimum-what uniworld is doing and just saying sorry cruise is canceled, here's your fare sorry about your other plans, a 100 percent bus trip that takes you to the booked destinations, option to cancel and make the best of it if you don't?  After all this could be like a US air line being impacted by weather.  Rerouted and not only not compensated but 10 extra hours traveling and charged for the difference in fare.

[pully8]

peregrino  We share your frustration and dismay, we are hopeful of a positive outcome/resolution so we can move forward.

We doubt at this late stage we can make alternative Christmas plans. 

We have cruised around the Netherlands/Belgium on other trips in spring to see the tulips. and other sites, never in mid winter.

 

We have not seen any offers from APT apart from what has been shared on here. We need to see what is proposed to enable us to make decisions. 

 

Like you we have made several attempts via email to APT and our TA to get the same message, from a variety of APT staff. Noise about a bit of rain is expected and they will let us know.

Knowing what the state of the rivers is, and that has been that way for months, the response is inadequate at best.  

 

Our agent said via email that APT told him we would not get a decision before 2 weeks prior to departure, but that was not a certainty. 

Making people wait with little and in some cases, no notice of major changes, with the current known severity of the situation, is difficult to understand or justify.

 

Some may not care where they go, its just a holiday, or they may have got a cheap deal or a trade special. We booked a Christmas/new year cruise for the dates and paid a very large sum to APT for business class airfares and a premium cruise.

We are thankful for the updates on here and other sources. Have you had any formal offers from APT, or are they expecting you to wait until you are in Europe?  

 

 

[peregrino]

1 hour ago, orchidj5 said:

So what do any of you see as the optimum-what uniworld is doing and just saying sorry cruise is canceled, here's your fare sorry about your other plans, a 100 percent bus trip that takes you to the booked destinations, option to cancel and make the best of it if you don't?

 

Hi orchidj5,

Our preferred option would be the uniworld case "sorry, cruise is cancelled, here's your fare, sorry about your other plans".

 

We would insert a DIY selection of several towns, with several nights in each, and do hub-&-spoke one day tours from there.  It is not even slightly the same as a luxury cruise, but we have already wrapped the cruise in pre- and post-  bookings, and flights.  To arrange a DIY selection overnight or in-transit is not trivial, so we would be much happier if they gave suitable notice.

 

Friends had a cruise cancellation notice on arrival a couple of years ago, and another cancellation recently while on a preceding cruise.  Both situations are diabolical for making other arrangements.

 

Plan B fleshed out with the TA before departure would be a way out, if one had any inkling that this would happen.

 

A 100% bus trip with long transits would not be ok, as one of us has had spinal surgery and cannot sit for long periods.  Trains are better than buses in that case, since it is easier to stand up.

 

A credit on a future trip will constrain your alternatives too much.  In our case, we book holidays up to 2 years ahead, so a 2 year credit would not be ok.

 

Voting-with-feet and word-of-mouth will reduce future patronage if customers are treated too shabbily.  Unfortunately some companies appear to have decided that their pool of customers is big enough to withstand this problem.

[peregrino]

1 hour ago, pully8 said:

Noise about a bit of rain is expected and they will let us know.

Knowing what the state of the rivers is

 

Hi pully8,

No, we don't have any further info other than a promise of some information on-or-after 30 November.

 

Here's that "bit of rain" projection:  https://www.wetteronline.de/regen-karte?fcdatstr=20181105

 

Here is the state of the river projection for the pinch-point at Kaub:

https://www.elwis.de/DE/dynamisch/gewaesserkunde/wasserstaende/wasserstaendeUebersichtGrafik.html.php?pegelId=1d26e504-7f9e-480a-b52c-5932be6549ab

 

Not too promising, by my understanding.

 

Notamermaid could probably tell us more clearly how this translates into cruising options.

[pully8]

With all the reliable/authorised sources of data around this known event it is difficult to understand why some of the operators, including APT are failing to disseminate information in a timely manner. We know the on board AMA/APT experience is of a high standard and we would expect the off ship operation to be the same.

 

Not sure why offers can not be made now, given the dire circumstances and knowing they can not supply the cruise that people have paid for, revenue protection? 

 

Fanciful to think a bit of rain will fix this problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark_T]

I know this is easier for me to say having just returned from what could have been a tour of the Netherlands/Belgium with Vienna and Budapest on the end, but actually turned out to be a great trip still including the Rhine, the Mosel, the Rhine Gorge (day boat) Namedy, Andernach, Koblenz, Dusseldorf, Cologne etc. ...

 

'Timely' means very different things for everyone involved. From the Captain's perspective time is measured in hours and at most a couple of days ahead. We began by sailing from Amsterdam to Rotterdam where we planned to moor overnight, and were due to sail on the Arnhem the following day, but after returning from our tours on the 12th we were told that water levels had improved and we were instead going to leave immediately for Nijmegen to position us closer to Germany.

 

After Nijmegen we sailed over night to Cologne arriving on the 14th, then again overnight arriving in Koblenz on the 15th. On the 16th we sailed up the Mosel in the morning, reaching Cochem for the afternoon with the plan to sail the following day to Bernkastel., but with the water levels falling again the ship headed back to Andernach while we made the short coach trip to Bernkastel before returning to join the ship as it arrived at Andernach.

 

None of that could have been predicted on the day we arrived onboard in Amsterdam, far less possible to even guess at that itinerary when we were given our option to cancel a week or so ahead of the start of our cruise.

 

Even with current low water levels things really are still changing in relatively short spaces of time.

 

'Reliable data' is at best about 24 hours ahead, during our trip at various times the official Rhine predictions showed Koblenz as falling for 2 days into the future when it didn't, then rising for two days when it didn't ...

 

I would expect to get an offer from APT to cancel, or continue with the modified Amsterdam/Belgium/Vienna/Budapest itinerary about a week before you are due to start the cruise, and yes, there is one big difference between the decision we had to take and the one facing those leaving in the next couple of weeks... ... we had no expectation of this being a 'German Christmas Market' cruise...

 

The markets were mostly open for us in Vienna and Budapest as we had expected and those will of course be there for you as well, none of the ones we saw being prepared in Germany were open of course as it was too early.

 

If the German markets are the critical factor for you then I can see that puts a different perspective on the decision, but it doesn't make it any easier to be accurate about where the cruise will go given current water levels and having been through it, it certainly doesn't feel like a week ahead is too short in terms of river cruise planning right now sadly....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Mark_T

[peregrino]

4 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

there is one big difference between the decision we had to take and the one facing those leaving in the next couple of weeks... ... we had no expectation of this being a 'German Christmas Market' cruise...

 

Thanks for your summary Mark_T.  So upbeat though, one might almost believe you were a TA? 😉

 

There is another big difference, in that the levels at Koblenz and Kaub were quite a bit higher two weeks ago.  More in the realms of marginal than dire!  As such, small changes in river levels could indeed allow alterations in the itinerary.

 

It would be terrific if notamermaid could advise us on what levels are needed at Koblenz to allow the Mosel River diversion, as you guys had.

 

We are very glad for you Mark_T, and your fellow passengers, that your cruise turned out quite well in the end.

[notamermaid]

Mark_T,

Thank you for your first-hand perspective on this. You are very right about the decision times. Since you left the Rhine area things have got just that little bit worse. It would be very interesting to hear from a cruiser of your reverse cruise that is now running to see how they are doing. APT has done a fantastic job.

 

I feel really sorry for those who have their sailings soon. A focus on Christmas markets would also make me find a change in itinerary harder to take.

 

The Moselle. With levels having dropped a little the stretch close to Koblenz coming from Andernach might face a bigger challenge. Turning into the Moselle at Deutsches Eck the Moselle is uncontrolled and the navigation channel not as deep as after the first lock going upstream. This could be the problem that, Mark_T, you mentioned in an earlier post. If that is the case, the situation will ease with just a few more centimetres at Koblenz and releasing a bit more water from the Moselle. Hopefully some rain along the Moselle valley in the next few days will do the trick. There are ships docked on the Moselle Koblenz embankment, so in essence the dock is still accessible.

 

Rain is coming. peregrino, I shall comment on the charts you posted later.

 

notamermaid

 

[pully8]

Thanks again for all your updates and information. Yes we agree the on board AMA/APT experience is very good, we have been fortunate to cruise with them previously.

We look forward to the decision makers and land based operation staff communicating  their offers soon.

Glad you enjoyed the trip.

We have also followed a travel blogger on twitter he is travelling on AMASonata and has posted beautiful pictures. The food looked lovely and well presented. There was also a picture in Vienna of 3 AMA ships together, Serena, Sonata and Certo. 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Sarakmom]

Many thanks for all of the great information shared on this thread. I arrived in Basel yesterday and am heading to board the GCT River Melody (originally scheduled for River Rhapsody) soon.  We’ve been alerted to possible deviations but no specifics. It was planned as a Christmas Markets Cruise. Since we arrived in Basel a day early we enjoyed a full day at the Christmas Market here and are now ready to embrace whatever adventures come our way- making the best out of the situation. I’ll be glad to share our route as it develops in case it helps inform expectations for others. 

[sjde]

Our hotel reception person told us that while before there would have been ships passing , going in opposite directions, now there may only be space for one in the center where it’s deepest.  I wonder how it’s determined which ones are allowed through and which ones aren’t. 

[Mark_T]

33 minutes ago, peregrino said:

 

Thanks for your summary Mark_T.  So upbeat though, one might almost believe you were a TA? 😉

 

There is another big difference, in that the levels at Koblenz and Kaub were quite a bit higher two weeks ago.  More in the realms of marginal than dire!  As such, small changes in river levels could indeed allow alterations in the itinerary.

 

 

Never a TA, I have enough problems tracking my own vacation planning :)

 

The main reason I added the graph of water levels at Koblenz ( and the one below of the arm from the Rhine to the Mosel) is that the levels when we started were not all that different to what is happening right now, it is just that we were fortunate enough for them to begin rising almost as soon as we boarded. Not possible to predict in advance and not something you can depend upon but it transformed our cruise in the course of just 48 hours.

 

I don't know what decision I'd take right now if we were looking at a departure a week or two away, especially with the Christmas element factored in. It is always going to be a very personal choice, for me the markets don't make a huge difference. You need to hunt down the markets/stalls that are actually selling local products as all too often you see the same imports being sold, and for me, the markets that we saw in Vienna and Budapest would have been quite sufficient, but if you planned a cruise on the basis of hitting the markets in every German town along the Rhine then a Netherlands/Belgium cruise just isn't going to cut it.

 

I can't deny we were very fortunate and like notamermaid suggests, I hope that someone on the reverse trip posts their experiences as a confirmation or counterpoint to our experiences. 

 

 

[notamermaid]

Mark_T, just to explain to fellow readers. You have posted the graph for the Moselle at Koblenz, the gauge is positioned just after the last lock and is close to the bridge over the Moselle. It reflects the situation as it happens on a managed waterway, differently from what happens on the Rhine. Overall it shows how low the river is and that maintaining the waterway is a little tricky. Unfortunately, as I have no further data I cannot translate this into figures for the navigation channel. But I am confident that the authorities monitor that area and in the mouth of the river gravel banks are easier to dredge out. A boat of that kind is part of the fleet of "helpers" in that area. It will not take much effort or rain to keep the Moselle dock going. The little rain that is forecast, I am confident, is sufficient. Which is more than can be said for the Rhine at Kaub.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

12 hours ago, RedTexGal said:

Hi ... I have been following this thread for awhile. I must say the networking of fellow travelers has been great. Myself I have an upcoming Christmas market cruise with Riviera. The Emily Bronte on the Rhine December 15th-19th. I won’t lie... I’m very concerned 🙁. I have seen how other cruise line have risen to the challenge and others have completely shucked their responsibility. I am reaching out to get feed back from travelers that have had experience with Riviera. I have seen one thread .. that one was from the Danube. That information stated that Riviera cancels 7 days out.. with no modifications🙁. I would rather use the ship as a base and work from there. The cruise is short compared to 8 day cruises I have experienced in the past. Cologne to as far as Rudesheim then back to Cologne.. is what is on the itinerary. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks

You will be on a good standard Christmas market cruise that is very popular with the British both in towns visited and in duration. If I had time and money I would love to join you on the beautiful Emily Bronte. But here comes the tricky but. Knowing that she is a 135m ship I would be wary of booking. The river levels...

 

I understand your concern, but you have some days to go before your cruise, so things can improve. With such a short itinerary I am not sure what Riviera could do as an alternative. Just using the ship as a base in Cologne would work. It is not far to go to Rüdesheim by coach. Still, you would have no cruising unless Riviera organizes an excursion boat for the Rhine gorge or an evening lights cruise in Cologne.

 

Closer to the date things will become clearer. Hopefully Riviera will inform you in good time of possible changes.

 

With Riviera not well-represented on this board it could take some time to get more feedback here. I started a thread on Riviera a while ago that has dropped onto a different page due to lack of comments.

 

notamermaid

 

[Mark_T]

It looks like 'Emily Bronte' may be in Passau right now so perhaps there is a chance that a smaller ship might be used, since she has no chance of making it to, or through the Rhine Gorge as things stand right now... 

[RedTexGal]

Notamermaid.. thank you for your insight. Even if we could make it to Koblenz that would be a win is this case. Yes Riviera does not have much of a presence on the boards.. however she does have several ships. They do have some 110m ships.. however they might be committed to another cruise or on the Danube. My sister and I still plan on going.. can’t speak for our 3rd travel partner. So hopefully more rain will come to the region. I know the locals have been greatly effective and business have suffered losses and jobs. I will keep monitoring this site

Thank you again😊

Mark_T

yes I did see the Emily Bronte had relocated to Passau after being in Rotterdam for several days. They do have some 110m ships ..like the Jane Austen. Maybe a different ship!!

Edited November 25, 2018 by RedTexGal
Update

[notamermaid]

Well spotted. I had checked her position on marinetraffic but the signal was lost in Rotterdam. I do not quite believe this but miraculously she reappeared in Passau which I have just been able to verify on vessel finder suggesting that she was transported from Rotterdam via sea to the Danube. But I am sure that is wrong! Anyway, you are right. There is no way she can get to the Rhine soon. Now Passau is a nice place....

 

But I am still hopeful for cruises after 5th December. It will just not do to loose faith.

 

notamermaid

 

[Mark_T]

8 minutes ago, notamermaid said:

But I am still hopeful for cruises after 5th December. It will just not do to loose faith.

 

 

… I try to remain hopeful as well, but the later in the year it gets, the more chance that what does fall in the right places will be falling as snow not rain, which will be of little help until it thaws...

[notamermaid]

RedTexGal,

The fleet is indeed quite impressive and I like that they have kept their options open by having both 110m and 135m ships. Of the shorter length the William Shakespeare is in the harbour at Neuss, near Düsseldorf. An option then. I have not tracked the Jane Austen.

 

notamermaid

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by notamermaid
Grammar