Why I Love Silversea Air!

[ak1004]

2 hours ago, canderson said:

We scheduled !4! days ahead for our 1 way business class to LIS for a TA and only had to pay the standard $150 deviation.  However, we did this immediately after the original booking, and fares have gone up considerably since then.  Might be a different story if we tried to switch to an earlier departure now.

 

When we book, the total cost of business class flights was $3,950 CAD(charged by SS). Current retail price is $4,450 CAD. I'm pretty sure they are locked in the previous price contract, even if they have to change the date. But even if not, the difference is $500 USD for the whole flight, while they are asking $800 extra for one direction.

Edited September 27, 2023 by ak1004

[FlyerTalker]

16 hours ago, ak1004 said:

When we book, the total cost of business class flights was $3,950 CAD(charged by SS). Current retail price is $4,450 CAD. I'm pretty sure they are locked in the previous price contract, even if they have to change the date.

 

No, no no.

 

It's not that the contracts are for X price between ABC and XYZ.  It is for seats on SPECIFIC FLIGHTS on SPECIFIC DAYS, not a general any date or flight.  The contract may have a soft block for days before/after, but that is not part of any "this is the cost for any date".

 

Also, remember that what SS, or any cruiseline charges the customer for a flight is NOT necessarily the cost of the ticket to the cruiseline.  You are likely paying cost plus for those tickets, and comparing it to any retail ticket is a bogus assumption.  So a retail difference may work out to much more when you factor in the cruiseline markup.

 

But go ahead and keep believing what you will.

 

 

[ak1004]

4 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

No, no no.

 

It's not that the contracts are for X price between ABC and XYZ.  It is for seats on SPECIFIC FLIGHTS on SPECIFIC DAYS, not a general any date or flight.  The contract may have a soft block for days before/after, but that is not part of any "this is the cost for any date".

 

Also, remember that what SS, or any cruiseline charges the customer for a flight is NOT necessarily the cost of the ticket to the cruiseline.  You are likely paying cost plus for those tickets, and comparing it to any retail ticket is a bogus assumption.  So a retail difference may work out to much more when you factor in the cruiseline markup.

 

But go ahead and keep believing what you will.

 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying this.

 

So the price they locked is for specific dates even if the contract is for flights 2 years in advance?

 

And yes, I'm aware that they are getting better prices than the retail. But this makes the difference they request even less reasonable. If my booking was at $3,950 CAD (charged by SS) and the current retail price is $4,450 CAD, that's a difference of $500 CAD ($350 USD) round trip, and they are asking $1,100 CAD ($800 USD) extra for one direction.

 

btw, at the tome of booking the price for those flights was over $6k CAD, so this was an excellent deal. But prices came down recently, and with the change and the difference they are asking, I would be actually paying more than buying them independently.

[canderson]

40 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

The contract may have a soft block for days before/after, but that is not part of any "this is the cost for any date".

I will say I was surprised that SS was perfectly happy to move my flights to 4 days ahead of departure with just the standard small deviation fee.  I understand that 3 days max is the norm, as is the case with pre-cruise hotel.  It would be interesting to know, for the future, just how "soft" the "before" ("after" would make no sense) is in days in their contracts with the airlines.

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

And yes, I'm aware that they are getting better prices than the retail. But this makes the difference they request even less reasonable. If my booking was at $3,950 CAD (charged by SS) and the current retail price is $4,450 CAD, that's a difference of $500 CAD ($350 USD) round trip, and they are asking $1,100 CAD ($800 USD) extra for one direction.

 

 

I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat.  And using CAD throughout.  But let's go with your $4000 (rounded) price from SS for your ticket.  Give them a cost of $3400 and a markup of $600.  Now to get a ticket for your date, they may have to go on the spot market and that $4450 is now their cost.  They were making a $600 markup before, so they now may want to make at least that on the new ticket.  So add in another $600 and your price is $5050, which is about the $1100 difference.

 

Remember that their ticket acquisition cost is most likely not the same as the price that they charge the customer.  And looking at the difference between the SS sales price and the retail sales price is comparing apples and oranges.  Don't assume any kind of straight line comparison, nor that SS is providing their services at zero markup.

 

All of which says -- look at YOUR PRICE and don't try to backfill into the SS COST.  Keep that difference between consumer price and supplier cost always in mind.

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

btw, at the tome of booking the price for those flights was over $6k CAD, so this was an excellent deal. But prices came down recently, and with the change and the difference they are asking, I would be actually paying more than buying them independently.

 

In buying at that time, you committed yourself to purchases through that channel.  Now, when circumstances change, you are on the other side of the "bargain" equation.  Fact of life.

 

All of which argues for plenty of research and analysis before making your decision.  TANSTAAFL.

 

FWIW, I have rarely found cruiseline provided air to be a genuine "bargain".  Sometimes it is a less expensive option, but with caveats.  And yes, for many it is the "easy" way to book air.  But it is rarely a slam dunk.

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, canderson said:

I will say I was surprised that SS was perfectly happy to move my flights to 4 days ahead of departure with just the standard small deviation fee.  I understand that 3 days max is the norm, as is the case with pre-cruise hotel.  It would be interesting to know, for the future, just how "soft" the "before" ("after" would make no sense) is in days in their contracts with the airlines.

 

 

This is the difference between hard block and soft block.  Hard block is where the cruiseline (or other provider) commits to a definite number of seats on specific flights.  This is a confirmed purchase between airline and reseller, so they have those seats whether they get used or not.   Which is why you often see cruiselines giving off-beat routings.  They have committed to those seats, so they fill them up even when some other routing may seem more "logical" to the consumer.  It's because they need to use those seats, one way or another. 

 

Example:  You are in Chicago and your cruise leaves from Rome.  There's a non-stop ORD-FCO, but the cruiseline routes you through Boston.  You scratch your head - but if you understand that the cruiseline may have unused seats BOS-FCO, you understand that you may have been backfilled into those tickets so they get used up.

 

A soft block is where the airline agrees to make available up to X number of seats at Y price on a routing and/or dates without a firm commitment for purchase by the reseller.  And this number may or may not be available for modification as market demand dictates.  Which is why sometimes you can get modifications without excess pricing increase and other times you don't.  And why, at other times, that change requires a spot buy by the cruiseline.  Further, there may or may not be soft blocks for any particular routing or dates.  You just don't know, as it is not a hard and fast rule for any particular situation.

 

And the specifics of those contracts, blocks, costs, routings and more are proprietary trade secrets of the airline and the reseller.

 

 

[ak1004]

6 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

 

I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat.  And using CAD throughout.  But let's go with your $4000 (rounded) price from SS for your ticket.  Give them a cost of $3400 and a markup of $600.  Now to get a ticket for your date, they may have to go on the spot market and that $4450 is now their cost.  They were making a $600 markup before, so they now may want to make at least that on the new ticket.  So add in another $600 and your price is $5050, which is about the $1100 difference.

 

Remember that their ticket acquisition cost is most likely not the same as the price that they charge the customer.  And looking at the difference between the SS sales price and the retail sales price is comparing apples and oranges.  Don't assume any kind of straight line comparison, nor that SS is providing their services at zero markup.

 

All of which says -- look at YOUR PRICE and don't try to backfill into the SS COST.  Keep that difference between consumer price and supplier cost always in mind.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the insights, very helpful!

 

So you are basically saying that while they originally get prices well below retail, to change the date they might be forced to pay the retail (or close)? And this is the reason why they have to charge so much extra?

 

But many others reported that SS charged them only the standard deviation fee of $150.

 

1 minute ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

In buying at that time, you committed yourself to purchases through that channel.  Now, when circumstances change, you are on the other side of the "bargain" equation.  Fact of life.

 

All of which argues for plenty of research and analysis before making your decision.  TANSTAAFL.

 

FWIW, I have rarely found cruiseline provided air to be a genuine "bargain".  Sometimes it is a less expensive option, but with caveats.  And yes, for many it is the "easy" way to book air.  But it is rarely a slam dunk.

 

 

 

 

You are absolutely right. And I'm usually book with points, which translates to much lower prices.

 

However, in this case, when I checked prices, the SS price was below $4k CAD, while retail price for the same flight was over $6k. But now the retail price came down to $4,500, so if they keep insisting on the $1,100 CAD extra, I will just take the air credit and book myself.

[FlyerTalker]

5 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

But many others reported that SS charged them only the standard deviation fee of $150.

 

Likely because the COST of the new ticket to the cruiseline was the same as the old ticket.  So there was no need to adjust the PRICE to the consumer.  They just added in a fee for their time and effort.

 

Big thing to remember, be it for cruiseline air or retail air:  Just because someone else got a particular price/routing/fee has ZERO relevance to what it may be for YOUR situation. Because your situation is unique.

 

 

5 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

However, in this case, when I checked prices, the SS price was below $4k CAD, while retail price for the same flight was over $6k. But now the retail price came down to $4,500, so if they keep insisting on the $1,100 CAD extra, I will just take the air credit and book myself.

 

 Arbitrage at work.  Take what works out best for you - as I said, look at your PRICE and don't get wrapped up in their COST.  And remember that their costs may vary from day to day, flight to flight.

 

Retail price has minimal, if any, relevance to cruiseline cost, except if they need to buy on the spot market.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by FlyerTalker

[canderson]

@FlyerTalker

Our itinerary is unlikely to have been popular to begin with.  We've got one way business, direct DEN to LHR then LIS, for what is, I believe, the last European SS departure ( a TA) of the season.  No other reason for eastbound flights, much less one to LHR / LIS.  Wouldn't make sense for SS to buy a block for that, much less one four days early.  That it's one way raised the ante for a private booking.  (Ah, the old days of consolidators and consolidator fares!)  I couldn't touch it for the add-on SS was offering then, and the public fare is even more now.

 

This leads me to believe that we were the beneficiaries of a substantial general discount SS receives from United and TAP.

[A Tucson Guy]

Here is my SS Air situation- I normally book my cruises two years in advance. On SS and Regent, even two years out, they give me a price for the SS Bus Air upcharge or with Regent, the Bus Air is included. I can't compare the upcharge to the airline prices since airline prices don't come out until 330 days prior to flying. That being said, I book my SS or Regent cruise with the Bus Air. Once I am 330 days out from flying, I check to see what the airline prices are for the same destination. So far, SS and Regent air is less that the tickets that I could buy. I think inflation has a lot to do with this equation.

[FlyerTalker]

3 minutes ago, A Tucson Guy said:

So far, SS and Regent air is less that the tickets that I could buy.

 

Just remember that if you are getting a "deal", you are most likely getting bulk tickets. That means you have different fare rules for your tickets than what you would find for retail published fare tickets.

 

When all works well, that's not an issue.  But often bulk tickets have restrictive fare rules that can bite you in the case of irregular operations.  You may have tickets that cannot be endorsed to another carrier, or that require you to fly a particular routing, which limits re-routing possibilities.  Or you may have tickets requiring flying on specific flight numbers, which means you are stuck waiting for a seat on that particular flight number on a different day.  And you almost never are able to know the details of those fare rules until after purchase, and sometimes not even then.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

 

[Luv2Cruise1016]

Our Norway cruise on Dawn in August we used SilverSea Air with upgrade to Business Class.  Traveled to embarkation city, Copenhagen, 2 days before sailing.  Used the SilverSea pre-cruise hotel for 2 nights.  Paid $0 for any sort of deviation.  I think the key is using their hotel.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Luv2Cruise1016
additional info

[boccenana]

Really eye opening to the process. Thank you so much.

[FlyerTalker]

9 minutes ago, boccenana said:

Really eye opening to the process. Thank you so much.

 

Anytime.

 

There is so much going on under the hood, and unfortunately it's not as transparent as many would like.  But there are reasons for that, in the trade secret realm.

 

Decades of flying, millions of BIS (butt in seat) miles, and an interest in the workings of the industry have provided me with some insights.  Happy to share them.

 

There are reasons for why things happen the way they do.  It's not capricious chance, nor random dart throwing.  Suffice to say that having the cruiseline arrange things is the simplest option.  However, it is not always, or even often, the most efficient and/or cost effective way.  All life is trade-offs and choices.

 

 

[ak1004]

1 hour ago, Luv2Cruise1016 said:

Our Norway cruise on Dawn in August we used SilverSea Air with upgrade to Business Class.  Traveled to embarkation city, Copenhagen, 2 days before sailing.  Used the SilverSea pre-cruise hotel for 2 nights.  Paid $0 for any sort of deviation.  I think the key is using their hotel.

 

Probably. But in our case they quoted us $1,220 USD per person for 2 nights ($2,440 USD total). Same hotel on Expedia is $1,500 USD for 2 nights. So in most cases you would be still paying more, just in a different way, but the bottom line is the same.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ak1004

[ak1004]

1 hour ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Just remember that if you are getting a "deal", you are most likely getting bulk tickets. That means you have different fare rules for your tickets than what you would find for retail published fare tickets.

 

When all works well, that's not an issue.  But often bulk tickets have restrictive fare rules that can bite you in the case of irregular operations.  You may have tickets that cannot be endorsed to another carrier, or that require you to fly a particular routing, which limits re-routing possibilities.  Or you may have tickets requiring flying on specific flight numbers, which means you are stuck waiting for a seat on that particular flight number on a different day.  And you almost never are able to know the details of those fare rules until after purchase, and sometimes not even then.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

 

 

What do you mean by bulk tickets? Aren't SS tickets fully refundable up to 3 months before sailing? This is what my reservation says.

 

As for routing, if you not happy with the routing they offer, you can always say no and get the air credit.

 

In our case, we were very happy with our flights (direct both directions) and we would be saving a lot, the only issue was the deviation fee. I was actually very surprised about the price which was more than $2k CAD cheaper than the retail price for similar price, plus you save on transfers. 

[FlyerTalker]

24 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

What do you mean by bulk tickets? Aren't SS tickets fully refundable up to 3 months before sailing? This is what my reservation says.

 

That is because you are buying the ticket from SS, which establishes what the refund from THEM would be.  The tickets are part of the bulk purchase from the airline, not a retail published fare ticket.

 

There is a world of difference between "published fare" tickets - what you would get buying direct from the airline, and "bulk fare" tickets - which is what you usually get from the cruiseline.

 

26 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

As for routing, if you not happy with the routing they offer, you can always say no and get the air credit.

 

In talking about irops, I was pointing out that if your flight is cancelled or delayed, you may not be able to get a different routing or be endorsed to another carrier.  Apples and oranges from selection of routing at time of purchase.

 

 

[ak1004]

5 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

In talking about irops, I was pointing out that if your flight is cancelled or delayed, you may not be able to get a different routing or be endorsed to another carrier.  Apples and oranges from selection of routing at time of purchase.

 

 

 

Okay, got you.

 

But isn't it the same if you buy independently? 

 

So what are disadvantages of buying from the cruise line if the price and routing are right? The cancellation policy seems much better than buying from the airlines.

[FlyerTalker]

13 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

But isn't it the same if you buy independently? 

 

So what are disadvantages of buying from the cruise line if the price and routing are right? The cancellation policy seems much better than buying from the airlines.

 

 

The tickets you buy from the airline usually do not have restrictive conditions when there are irops.  That's the difference.

 

And, since covid, the penalties for cancellation/change with most airlines have gone away, or be very modified.

 

Besides...are you really cancelling your flights that often so you need to be concerned?

 

 

[ak1004]

1 minute ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

 

The tickets you buy from the airline usually do not have restrictive conditions when there are irops.  That's the difference.

 

And, since covid, the penalties for cancellation/change with most airlines have gone away, or be very modified.

 

Besides...are you really cancelling your flights that often so you need to be concerned?

 

 

 

I'm not really concerned too much about cancellation policy. But sometimes there are really good deals on points, so I try to book fully refundable flights when possible so I can cancel and rebook with points. This is the only concern.

[ak1004]

After further correspondence with SilverSky, turns out that the $1,100 CAD (~800 USD) is IN ADITTION to the deviation fee of $150! So now they expect me to pay $3,950+1278=$5228. while I can book independently for $4,474 CAD.

 

Needless to say, I will be cancelling the whole air portion of the booking and getting an air credit.

[Kauaijim]

Our difference was $3100 per person for business class to Aamon . So it was a no brainer to take the credit and book ourselves 

[Gourmet Gal]

4 hours ago, Kauaijim said:

Our difference was $3100 per person for business class to Aamon . So it was a no brainer to take the credit and book ourselves 

Where is Aamon?

[Kauaijim]

Jordan , January 16 day trip on Moon