Straights attending FOD meetings

[Schplinky]

I guess Princess hasnt had any problems with complaints.. in the Patter the meetings are listed, "Rainbow GLBT Get-Together, Meet the 'Family' at the Bar for cocktails and introductions"

(You can see it on Page 2 at 530pm) <---following Derf, including a reference link!

 

But that's just my point. Sometimes, it seems like other lines fear a backlash that would not be there. We requested on Celebrity that they be caled the GLBT gathering and the cruise director refused, saying the gays will know what we mean and that's all that matters.

 

At least now on RCL, they use the bulletin board so we can call it whatver we want. Of course, you have to count on the gays to find the bulletin board but I would guess that the sort of people who would miss that will miss the dailies also.

[txflyer]

I was reading in the Advocate the other day about a company that was prevented from continuing to offer partne benefits because their state had introduced a ban on these for all but married (in the traditional sense) folk, in order to discourage same-sex couples. Those that forced this through likely hurt a lot more straights than gays (when you think of all the common-law partners out there) but from the point of view of these bigots, it's genius. Only they get to keep their benefits while everyone else has to pay for them.

 

This is the reason the anti-same-sex marriage amendment was defeated by the voters of Arizona...because it would hurt the partnered/unmarried hetero couples.

[Schplinky]

This is the reason the anti-same-sex marriage amendment was defeated by the voters of Arizona...because it would hurt the partnered/unmarried hetero couples.

 

I think that folks are slowly learning that these sorts of discrimination are hurting less and less of a minority...

[Ephraim]

I was reading in the Advocate the other day about a company that was prevented from continuing to offer partne benefits because their state had introduced a ban on these for all but married (in the traditional sense) folk, in order to discourage same-sex couples. Those that forced this through likely hurt a lot more straights than gays (when you think of all the common-law partners out there) but from the point of view of these bigots, it's genius. Only they get to keep their benefits while everyone else has to pay for them.

 

Wow, they get the Advocate in the middle-of-nowhere, now? (Sorry, I'm in Montreal... it was just too easy!)

 

The United States is a backwater when it comes to Gay and Lesbian rights. You and I are both from Canada. What do you think would happen to a company in Canada that tried that?

 

Do you remember the Dr. Laura fiasco in Canada? Her TV show was cancelled in 2.5 weeks because of one person (looking up innocently, trying not to mention that persons name, because it isn't public knowledge) went ahead and set up a website listing the names of the companies in Canada who were advertised during her broadcast. When each company got a phone call ro email about it, they ordered the TV station to stop broadcasting their ads. They weren't even paying for the ads, they were all bonus ads and even FREE they didn't want to be associated with her... in Canada. They cancelled the show because the only ads they could run were PSA and even the PSAs were complaining because they were getting complaints (In Montreal, one of the PSAs was for the ADL and another for Farah Foundation, just not appropriate.)

 

The US is very far behind. But we still have problems here in Canada. There was the B&B in PEI that went out of business because they wanted to discriminate against a Gay couple. I had to get a manager of the Sheraton in Toronto to intervene when the desk employee decided that we wanted double beds, despite the fact that I clearly asked her for one king sized bed.

 

And as you and I both know... there is definitely one answer you don't want to be asked when going over the border.

 

(PS: Did you catch that note I left you in another thread, where you mentioned what you paid to fly from Europe) We are flying from Barcelona to Montreal, non-stop on Air Transat.... CAD324 tax in! Luggage limit is a crappy 23kg though.)

[Ephraim]

But that's just my point. Sometimes, it seems like other lines fear a backlash that would not be there. We requested on Celebrity that they be caled the GLBT gathering and the cruise director refused, saying the gays will know what we mean and that's all that matters.

 

I'm trying to find a way to say this nicely, but all I can think of is... they just have no ....

 

Actually, if we start to pressure the IGLTA, maybe they will start to get a bit of backbone. Let's face it, at $550 a year for membership, it's a cheap way to say you are "open" when all you do is pay lip service to it.

[bdjam]

I guess Princess hasnt had any problems with complaints.. in the Patter the meetings are listed, "Rainbow GLBT Get-Together, Meet the 'Family' at the Bar for cocktails and introductions"

(You can see it on Page 2 at 530pm) <---following Derf, including a reference link!

Actually, the name was changed because of complaints - straight people that came to the FOD gatherings didn't realize what they were coming to and complained about it.

[Schplinky]

Wow, they get the Advocate in the middle-of-nowhere, now? (Sorry, I'm in Montreal... it was just too easy!)

 

The United States is a backwater when it comes to Gay and Lesbian rights. You and I are both from Canada. What do you think would happen to a company in Canada that tried that?

 

Do you remember the Dr. Laura fiasco in Canada? Her TV show was cancelled in 2.5 weeks because of one person (looking up innocently, trying not to mention that persons name, because it isn't public knowledge) went ahead and set up a website listing the names of the companies in Canada who were advertised during her broadcast. When each company got a phone call ro email about it, they ordered the TV station to stop broadcasting their ads. They weren't even paying for the ads, they were all bonus ads and even FREE they didn't want to be associated with her... in Canada. They cancelled the show because the only ads they could run were PSA and even the PSAs were complaining because they were getting complaints (In Montreal, one of the PSAs was for the ADL and another for Farah Foundation, just not appropriate.)

 

The US is very far behind. But we still have problems here in Canada. There was the B&B in PEI that went out of business because they wanted to discriminate against a Gay couple. I had to get a manager of the Sheraton in Toronto to intervene when the desk employee decided that we wanted double beds, despite the fact that I clearly asked her for one king sized bed.

 

And as you and I both know... there is definitely one answer you don't want to be asked when going over the border.

 

(PS: Did you catch that note I left you in another thread, where you mentioned what you paid to fly from Europe) We are flying from Barcelona to Montreal, non-stop on Air Transat.... CAD324 tax in! Luggage limit is a crappy 23kg though.)

 

Backwater is not a word I would use.

 

I do think that when things go over the line, folks here are less tolerant. The whole Anna Coulter things would have seen her dropped from most papers here and not just a couple.

 

The U.S. is a more religious country and so I think, in fairness, there is more traditionalism to overcome. While Canada is a multi-cultural society, I think of the U.S. more as a melting pot, where folks are expected to assimilate more to a particular ideal. Clearly, this makes things harder for gay people there than here.

 

As for the Sheraton in Toronto, I've had a hard time getting a single bed when i was travelling alone so I wouldn't automatically chalk it up to homophobia.

[derf5585]

Do you remember the Dr. Laura fiasco in Canada? Her TV show was cancelled in 2.5 weeks because of one person

 

Panel: Dr. Laura violates ethics code - Canadian Broadcast Standards Council ruling on radio talk show host Laura Schlessinger's

from

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_19_117/ai_63165340

[Schplinky]

Actually, the name was changed because of complaints - straight people that came to the FOD gatherings didn't realize what they were coming to and complained about it.

 

Now that's funny.

 

I read about a woman who didn't know what Friends of Bill W was so she bought a drink and went....

[aaerobear]

Princess does NOT always call it "GLBT Rainbow whatever". In todays Patter for the Dawn sailing out of SFO it was listed as "Friends of Dorothy" it was held in "magnums" bar and at 5pm, the ship sailed at 4pm.

 

Ed

[Schplinky]

Wow, they get the Advocate in the middle-of-nowhere, now? (Sorry, I'm in Montreal... it was just too easy!)

 

I thought Toronto was the centre of the universe? I didn't realise Montreal was delusional as well. Well, if it helps you sleep at night...

 

I was actually born in Montreal but did not grow up there. We used to go dancing there on the weekends until it all just totally sucked. :) It seems all the clubs are now full of college kids.

 

It sucks being 40.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Actually, it doesn't if it means being able to afford cruises...

[Ephraim]

Backwater is not a word I would use.

 

I do think that when things go over the line, folks here are less tolerant. The whole Anna Coulter things would have seen her dropped from most papers here and not just a couple.

 

The U.S. is a more religious country and so I think, in fairness, there is more traditionalism to overcome. While Canada is a multi-cultural society, I think of the U.S. more as a melting pot, where folks are expected to assimilate more to a particular ideal. Clearly, this makes things harder for gay people there than here.

 

As for the Sheraton in Toronto, I've had a hard time getting a single bed when i was travelling alone so I wouldn't automatically chalk it up to homophobia.

 

Ever read Levitt and Dubner's Freakonomics? It's an excellent read and explains some of the weird politics in the US. For example, he proves the connection between abortion and crime and how hypocritical it is to have an anti-crime stand and an anti-abortion stance at the same time. But then again, they are rationalists.

 

The realities in the US is that the "traditional family" hasn't every really existed and certainly doesn't exist today. It's a fake creation. The traditional family would involve three generations living under the same roof. This "traditional family" is a creation of television (Ozzie and Harriet, Leave It to Beaver, Bewitched). Worse yet, the majority of people in the US aren't part of traditional families, considering the divorce rates along with all the other family situations.

 

I do agree that they have more of a religious background, but they also have a lot less of a human rights background than Canada has. And you are right, the melting-pot compared to our salad bowl does make a difference.

 

In Canada, less than 50% of people ever bother getting married anymore. I haven't seen the breakdown for Quebec, but I'm pretty willing to bet that they are significantly lower in Quebec. And as you know, in Quebec women don't take their mate's name at all, since the mid 80s.

 

The Sheraton problem was actually because she was a new immigrant. She saw two men and assumed that we would be more comfortable in two beds. I asked her twice, politely, to fix the situation and she didn't understand. I asked her to call a manager and he fixed it instantly and explained to her that in Canada, the client gets what they ask for. I didn't think it was homophobia, but it did surprise me. It's not something I expect in Canada.

 

Derf, while I appreciate the link, I know more about that subject than that article, including being involved in some of the CRTC and CBSC discussions. (Not to mention GLAAD). In Canada the radio and TV are seen as being owned by the public and broadcast licences are to represent the people who are broadcast to. The radio stations that broadcast Dr. Laura had to run counter programming to balance the views she expressed. But further, her argument was a clear violation of Canada anti-discrimination laws which do not allow for a discriminatory argument to be made based on science, only religion. We do not have unencumbered freedom of speech in Canada. The right to be free of discrimination comes before the right to free speech in Canada. She was cited several times for violations of the broadcaast standards, the stations paid fines and then needed to put her on a broadcast delay. He radio show was often moved to the middle of the night so that it could be reviewed during the day and broadcast at night.

 

And Gays and Lesbians weren't her only problem. I had her cited for suggesting spousal abuse and for detrimental comments against Pagans. (And as far as I'm concerned, she's an embarrassment to the entire Jewish religion as well.)

[Ephraim]

I thought Toronto was the centre of the universe? I didn't realize Montreal was delusional as well. Well, if it helps you sleep at night...

 

I was actually born in Montreal but did not grow up there. We used to go dancing there on the weekends until it all just totally sucked. :) It seems all the clubs are now full of college kids.

 

It sucks being 40.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Actually, it doesn't if it means being able to afford cruises...

 

Well, I was born and raised here. I spent about a year in Ottawa after high school. I worked in Stittsville (at the flea market, between buildings 3 and 4) and on Richmond Road. I lived in Nepean. How long ago was that? They were still building (and finishing) the Eaton Centre. And having to go over to Hull because I was just 18 and couldn't drink in Ottawa. (As if the bars were open late anyway).

 

So, you, like me, remember the days of Securite Maximum? The only bar I ever go to now is Stud. Yup, I am old as well!

[Schplinky]

OMG!!!

 

On the one hand, Canada is not a backwater because...

 

then, your problems at the Sheraton are because you were attended to by an immigrant.

 

Good lord.

 

I don't think our time in Ottawa overlapped so I have no idea what Securite Maximum was.

 

Sorry.

 

I did read Freakonomics but thought it was the gimmicky business book du jour. Sorry. It was cute for a chapter and then got old.

[Ephraim]

Securite Maximum was a Montreal bar, with a prison motif, on St-Hubert.

 

The manager at the Sheraton in Toronto explained that she was a new immigrant (at least that was his excuse). In any case, we got the room we wanted and an apology.

 

Well, coming from a background of Poli Sci, the book was interesting because it showed a statistical correlation between certain actions. It reminded me of the classical lack of statistical correlation between crime and reported crime (or arrests). The police are forever telling us that crime is down by reporting crime statistics but for ages it has been show that there is no statistical correlation between them. (It relates to the fact that many people don't report crime and the fact that police can reclassify crimes in many different ways. For example by marking a crime as being under x dollars and therefore gets reported as petty crime instead of minor crime. Or just giving a warning to someone verbally.)

[Schplinky]

S

 

Well, coming from a background of Poli Sci, the book was interesting because it showed a statistical correlation between certain actions. It reminded me of the classical lack of statistical correlation between crime and reported crime (or arrests). The police are forever telling us that crime is down by reporting crime statistics but for ages it has been show that there is no statistical correlation between them. (It relates to the fact that many people don't report crime and the fact that police can reclassify crimes in many different ways. For example by marking a crime as being under x dollars and therefore gets reported as petty crime instead of minor crime. Or just giving a warning to someone verbally.)

 

My degree is in Political Science also. Small world. I thought that the logic in blink was often circular and only supported the clever argument that he was making at the moment (as opposed to having any bearing in the real world). By giving only certain facts and drawing correlations, he was often not giving the whole picture (so as not to muddy his cleverness, I thought) In fairness, I read that book right after Blink and thought they were both trite "airplane books" but my impression of the second may have been affected by that of the first.

[Ephraim]

See, I just saw him as simplifying it and those who wanted more proof could follow the notes. I have a bad habit of following the notes.

 

I've been reading Ross Klein's books lately. I need the notes because I disagree with some of his conclusions (which I find that he doesn't properly support). But then, I have always been like that. That's one of the most important things that they taught me in University. And frankly, it took him to the third book to get some substance to the book in any case. (Meanwhile, he's banned from all the cruise lines from what I hear, that doesn't sound like fun!)

 

How's your psephology?

 

Boy, someone is going to clobber us for being off topic... let's try to stick a little bit of on topic discussion back into this....

 

Do you think we should start a letter writing campaign to put some pressure on the IGLTA to take a more proactive stance towards members being Gay and Lesbian positive? (See, I can get some on topic conversation going).

[Schplinky]

I had to look up psephology. The study of elections, huh? I'm more of a constitutions and public policy person so I have to admit that I can rarely recall who ran last time. I just took a really great public law course that filled in a lot of gaps in my political science background. Things like why Quebec joined Confederation in the first place (to avoid being absorbed by the U.S.) were new to me and explained some long-lingering questions. It was a great course. I didn't know that Canada was formed from three provinces, not four as is commonly assumed.

 

Getting back to cruises.

 

I think letterwriting campaigns tend to work as long as they have a point. Asking for a gay positive stance is one thing but I think it's important to give examples. I'd love an industry-wide support of GLBT parties (not FOD parties). I'd also like an end to cruise directors and ship's comedians who make cheap jokes, not just at gay people but at other minorities like the ship's staff. Our cruise director on Westerdam did this and it was just horrible to me that you could be raving about how great the staff was in one breath and then making fun of their multi-syllable names in the next (althought he hundreds of people laughing clearly disagreed with me). I found it impossible to make eye contact with the bar servers who were workign during this "comedy." He also curbed a cat-call from the audience, saying that it was a "cruise ship, not a faerie boat" which would just be rude but, given that there was a group of 200 gay men on board, it was just plain stupid.

[Ephraim]

Psephology is one of my favourite subjects, but it's more about comparative electoral systems. For example, First Past the Post versus Hare or Modified Proportional.

 

My Poli Sci degree wasn't done in Canada. Heck, it wasn't even done in English (or French.) It's odd... I've never been successful at University in English even though it's my mother tongue.

 

All I would like to see is that they treat us with dignity. That they be open and honest and call the meetings GLBT and not "friends of the Dorothy" which is such a CLOSET term. And I would like to see an end to homophobic jokes. If they are going to be members of the IGLTA then they should at least be open and Gay and Lesbian positive. I don't think that's too much to ask from members of the IGLTA. Otherwise being a member of the IGLTA doesn't mean anything.... frankly, Sandals could have been a member of the IGLTA a few years ago. There should at least be a minimum code of conduct.

 

And frankly, $550 a year is damn CHEAP. A small B&B gets hit up with $250 to join and an International Cruise Line pays $550? That's a little inequity.

[derf5585]

I had to look up psephology.

 

Me too. This is from Wiked-Pedia

Is this article true

 

Psephology is the statistical analysis of elections

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psephology

[sjbdtz]

I thought Toronto was the centre of the universe? I didn't realise Montreal was delusional as well. Well, if it helps you sleep at night...

 

I was actually born in Montreal but did not grow up there. We used to go dancing there on the weekends until it all just totally sucked. :) It seems all the clubs are now full of college kids.

 

It sucks being 40.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Actually, it doesn't if it means being able to afford cruises...

 

You're right! Toronto IS the centre of the universe!

 

Actually...we're the same age, and I used to live in Ottawa in my late teens/early twenties... I wonder if we know each other.

 

Stephen

[Schplinky]

You're right! Toronto IS the centre of the universe!

 

Actually...we're the same age, and I used to live in Ottawa in my late teens/early twenties... I wonder if we know each other.

 

Stephen

 

Could be but I didn't come out until my thirties. My picture is in my avatar. I'm the one on the left.

[Ephraim]

Psephology is the statistical study of elections and trends in voting. This would include the study of comparative electoral systems. (Personally, I think that even the word statistical is too narrow and I would use the word mathematical, since formulae are being derived).

 

It's funny, each Canadian city seems to have it's own set of unique problems. In Toronto, I find that they like to tail gate. (My father lives in Toronto and I drive down to visit him.) I often drive with my left food tapping the brake just to get people to back off a bit.

 

Don't think I'm saying any city in Canada is better... Montreal drivers are aggressive and inconsiderate.

[sexyaznboy]

Psephology is the statistical study of elections and trends in voting. This would include the study of comparative electoral systems. (Personally, I think that even the word statistical is too narrow and I would use the word mathematical, since formulae are being derived).

 

It's funny, each Canadian city seems to have it's own set of unique problems. In Toronto, I find that they like to tail gate. (My father lives in Toronto and I drive down to visit him.) I often drive with my left food tapping the brake just to get people to back off a bit.

 

Don't think I'm saying any city in Canada is better... Montreal drivers are aggressive and inconsiderate.

 

I live in Toronto, and yes, some Torontonians think that Toronto is the center of the universe LOL. And driving here gets worse every year I live here. As for the gay scene, there is a lot of attitude, probably more than other cities I've visited in the US. I hear Montreal is easier to meet people? As a single guy, perhaps I should move there? ;)

[Ephraim]

I live in Toronto, and yes, some Torontonians think that Toronto is the center of the universe LOL. And driving here gets worse every year I live here. As for the gay scene, there is a lot of attitude, probably more than other cities I've visited in the US. I hear Montreal is easier to meet people? As a single guy, perhaps I should move there? ;)

 

Don't know about them being easier.... I'm old and married. 17 years going on 18.