Straights attending FOD meetings

[aaerobear]

Hello!!! Can we get back on topic here? It really does not matter what the cruiselines call their get togethers as long as they have them. We do not need a stamppad title. Thats like saying the airlines should all call their freguent flier programs the same thing, or the cruiselines loyalty programs the same name. It isn't going to happen.

 

And on your bed topic, I think it might be a Canadian thing, I have had it happen in YVR/YWG/YUL/YYZ I can truly say it has never happened to us in the US, but then, thats not to say it might not. That being said, with the influx of new Canadians over the years, it does take a while to assimilate.

 

As gar as the "friends of Bill W" that is an established program for alchololics and has been for many years (he was one of the group's movers and shakers)

[Ephraim]

I'm sorry, I can't agree. I don't care what they call it, as long as it's clear and open. I don't believe "Friends of Dorothy" is clear or open. I have had too many people ask me what it means, both Gay and straight. And I have seen the reception desk on an NCL cruise refuse to answer a guests direct question about what a "Friends of Dorothy" meeting was.

 

Hey, if Carnival wants to hide, that's fine with me. They aren't members of an organization to promote Gay and Lesbian tourism. But RCL, NCL and Oceania are all members of such an organization.

 

As for straights attending, I already stated my position; as far as I'm concerned as long as them come with Gay/Lesbian friends, it's great. If they just want to see what Gays look like, as if I'm an animal display at the zoo, then no.

[DarkJedi]

I'm glad Derf asked this question, and glad to see the answer!

We ended up being the only two people from the Miracle booked for David & Ivan's Extreme tour in Costa Maya this past week, the rest of the group consisted of a group from the Valor, it was DW and I, 1 female and 12 guys on the tour. Whle waiting for the group to assemble it was apparent that they were all very comfortable with each other and knew each other. When we got to the tour it became very apparent that it was all couples, after the tour we went to the lake and they went to one area and we went to another. When we got together for lunch we got to talking, they were tonign it down for us and we had been keeping our distance so we didn't offend them! After that we all had a blast, from now on I'm hitting the FOD meeting just to be able to find the fun people.

[aaerobear]

You see thats where the problem is. I NEVER asked you to agree..period.

Friends of Dorothy is part of the gay culture, whether you agree or not, it is. That "code phrase" if you like, has been used for over 50 years and will probably be around for a lot more. Carnival and Princess and Celebrity and HAL and NCL have all used it. I just went back over all of our dailies from that last few years of cruising and only once has the term "LGBT" been used. I feel that gay and lesbian people should also know more about the early days of our struggle and by doing so, would understand sayings like FOD more. I know there are some out there that would say they should use the word "queer" when they advertise the event. How many folks would be comfortable with that title?

 

It isn't all about the younger LGBT people that cruise, it is about ALL of us. Again, this may be a Canadian thing, as maybe, more LGBT people in the states are familiar with the term, but I have no way of knowing that. before you go balistic on me, I know that they are drawing to an international crowd, but, in reality, 75-80% of cruise passengers are from the US.

 

But, like I said, I don't care, it is a NONissue as long as they still host the get togethers. Some may want to be waving a rainbow flag, but others that attend prefer to be a little more circumspect. We will never all have the same opinion, it's just the way it is.

 

I used to work for a company that was a member of the ILGTA and let me tell you, the ONLY reason these companies belong is to glean your travel dollars from the competition. Most of them also belong to some organizations that are anti-gay. It's all business, so let's not think that they are joining a "gay" travel organization out of the goodness of their hearts and a sincere desire to advance the struggle of gay rights.

[Schplinky]

You see thats where the problem is. I NEVER asked you to agree..period.

Friends of Dorothy is part of the gay culture, whether you agree or not, it is. That "code phrase" if you like, has been used for over 50 years and will probably be around for a lot more.

 

I usually agree with your posts but disagree here. If FOD were a commonly known term, I think I would have heard it and other gay people we have met on cruises would have heard it. We hadn't and we've had to explain to many gay people what that meant in the dailies. Heck, I read the Advocate, OUT, Genre and the rest of them and I only learned the term FOD when we started going on cruises and I started reading this forum. Maybe in gay meccas like SF or WEHO, folks know all the lingo but the rest of us would just like to meet some friends while onboard. Calling it a GLBT gathering would achieve that more readily (although it would not serve the "circumspect" quite as well).

[bdjam]

Judy Garland is rolling in her grave.

Friends of Dorothy is a commonly known phrase around these parts. And 'bear is right - people should have some inkling of the struggles of the past as it is part of their culture and the freedoms they now enjoy are because of those struggles.

That being said, there are a lot of people who don't know what FOD is and so using "Rainbow" or "LGBT" helps to clarify.

[Schplinky]

Judy Garland is rolling in her grave.

 

Friends of Dorothy is a commonly known phrase around these parts. And 'bear is right - people should have some inkling of the struggles of the past as it is part of their culture and the freedoms they now enjoy are because of those struggles.

 

A gathering on a cruise ship isn't a history lesson, it's a social event. They should use a term that the people they hope will come to the event know. I truly think it's that simple.

 

I'm all for knowing our history but I'm also for living in the present.

 

Even if Judy is rolling in her grave, she was well-enough marinated that she'll be fine. For that matter, so will Dorothy Parker, who others claim this phrase relates to. Apparently, the gays like their boozy broads!

[txflyer]

Friends of Dorothy is part of the gay culture, whether you agree or not, it is. That "code phrase" if you like, has been used for over 50 years and will probably be around for a lot more.

 

I used to work for a company that was a member of the ILGTA and let me tell you, the ONLY reason these companies belong is to glean your travel dollars from the competition. Most of them also belong to some organizations that are anti-gay. It's all business, so let's not think that they are joining a "gay" travel organization out of the goodness of their hearts and a sincere desire to advance the struggle of gay rights.

 

I can easily remember hearing the code, "friend of dorothy" dating all the way back to my college days. It was used in the same sense as "playing on our team" or "going to the same church" or "is he canadian too?" Of all those code phrases, "friend of dorothy dates back the furthest for me and I certainly did not grow up in a gay mecca.

 

These elements of gay culture are too easily forgotten and I feel its important to recognize them.

 

Aaerobear is correct about the IGLTA ...according to their mission statement, they are there to help their members make more gay dollars:

 

"IGLTA is the world's leading travel trade association committed to growing and enhancing its members gay and lesbian tourism business..."

 

I searched and searched their site looking for membership requirements that would indicate member companies must meet a certain standard...for example, requiring that member companies have sexual orientation included in their non-discrimination statements....but I couldnt find any such requirement. Perhaps its there and I didnt find it.

 

Im not saying its a good (or bad) thing..the point Im making is that expecting the IGLTA to change how cruise lines label their gay meetings or to assume their objective is to advance gay rights could be beyond the scope of their mission. ..>>jack

[Schplinky]

I can easily remember hearing the code, "friend of dorothy" dating all the way back to my college days. It was used in the same sense as "playing on our team" or "going to the same church" or "is he canadian too?" Of all those code phrases, FOD dates back the furthest in my personal history.

 

 

 

It must be me then. Maybe I need to go to some gay finishing school for 40 year-olds!! Imagine that!

[txflyer]

It must be me then. Maybe I need to go to some gay finishing school for 40 year-olds!! Imagine that!

 

I think many of us could use finishing school for a number of things...so its not about that. I think its about the amount of time one has been "out" (if its OK to use that term?). I think the culture or history has been lost on some of those coming out more recently, mostly because its a much different environment than 20 or 30 years ago.

 

It would be really fun for someone to create a "Gay Cultural History" quiz that would incorporate many of the phrases and history that have been lost over time. ..>>jack

[Schplinky]

I think many of us could use finishing school for a number of things...so its not about that. I think its about the amount of time one has been "out" (if its OK to use that term?). I think the culture or history has been lost on some of those coming out more recently, mostly because its a much different environment than 20 or 30 years ago.

 

It would be really fun for someone to create a "Gay Cultural History" quiz that would incorporate many of the phrases and history that have been lost over time. ..>>jack

 

My first bf used to call other gays "of the faith" and I thought that was cute. Of course, I thought he was cute too, but I outgrew that. :)

 

 

I think you're right about familiarity these phrases being dependent on when you came out. I came out in my early thirties and have only ever just called myself gay but I understand that others have had different experiences, depending on when they came out and into what climate.

 

I would say I like the idea of the quiz except it seems as though I would fail it.

[txflyer]

I think you're right about familiarity these phrases being dependent on when you came out. I came out in my early thirties and have only ever just called myself gay but I understand that others have had different experiences, depending on when they came out and into what climate.

I would say I like the idea of the quiz except it seems as though I would fail it.

 

Not about pass or fail...it should be totally about fun and learning.

 

Several years ago I had a neighbor in his mid-seventies... he talked about celebrating his 35th birthday in 1963! at a famous bar in Laguna Beach (Ive forgotten the name although I spent many nights in my more youthful party days) or he would reminisce about the Stud in San Francisco.. I was so fascinated that he could talk about having been to these places many years prior to myself and I realized the place they had so far back in history.

 

These are the things weve heard about over the years; the places and times that were an integral part of our culture. Its possible that many of todays younger gay community (or more recently out) has not experienced or even heard of. In fact they may not even care..and thats the sad part because these things we called our own, back in the day, are slowly being lost as we evolve into a more mainstream part of society.

 

So for me, its OK for the cruise line to call it 'Friends of Dorothy" or "Rainbow Gathering" because they are more than just labels..there is alot of culture and meaning that go with it. And by the same token, its ok for friendly str8 people to join us because of the way we have evolved into the mainstream. ..>>jack

[Blazerboy]

I belonged to a Gay Fraternity in college, and, as part of our yearly retreat, we made education of the history of the GLBT community part of the program...films like "Auntie Mame," and "The Women," music that included a healthy dose of torch song singers, and yes, even a little bit of actual written GLBT history! ...so, yeah, I had a "leg up" on the rest of you...gee, THAT sounds a little racy!:o ....But history is important!:)

 

That said, I think the other part of the equation that Aerobear brought up is that, within our community, there are differences of opinion about the term, and about how the meetings should be held- why even this thread has been a back and forth on how "out" the meetings should be.

 

I certainly don't need the whole "discretion" thing when going to a gathering, but I understand that, especially for some (certainly not all!)people from earlier generations, or from different cultures, there can be some desire for what you and I might consider "code" or closet behavior.

 

No one is asking you not to hold your partner/husband's hand (at least I hope not!) but what some folks get out of this gathering is an opportunity to meet up without pushing their comfort levels...my hope is always that, once they see me being quite open with my partner, and interacting with most others on the ship, that it will increase their comfort level, and perhaps even lead them to the point where they don't feel the need to 'be discreet.' But old habits die hard, and I certainly want to keep that particular venue open to them. Me, I'm off meeting hundreds of all sorts of folks and brainwashing them...er....interacting with them as an out gay man...yeah, that's it...so I don't need the FOD gatherings personally...but I DO remember what it was like...a few million years ago, it seems, when I wasn't out of the closet.:)

 

Hold hands, sing campfire songs....:cool:

 

Oh, and while you Canadians and I feel the same way about many aspcts of U.S. culture, let's be careful tarring everyone in the US with such a broad brush. Much of the liberty GLBT Canadians enjoy to this day is a direct result of activism in the past on the part of your US brethren...and besides, my family's originally from Nova Scotia!!!! Can't we all just get along....:D

 

Kisses,

 

Andrew

[aaerobear]

And my father was from Regina (thats an R) actually, Halbrite

 

Ed

[derf5585]

ncluded a healthy dose of torch song singers,

 

my hope is always that, once they see me being quite open with my partner,

 

A torch song is a sentimental love song, typically one in which the singer laments an unrequited or lost love

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torch_song

 

How open. Ever seen a PDA or involved in one aboard ship?

[etoile]

A torch song is a sentimental love song, typically one in which the singer laments an unrequited or lost love

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torch_song

 

How open. Ever seen a PDA or involved in one aboard ship?

Listening to torch song music isn't necessarily more "open" than anything else. Gay people, such as Blazerboy's fraternity, are often fans of torch songs, but it doesn't mean that straight people don't listen to them. Seeing someone enjoying a torch song doesn't really tell you anything about their orientation. (Despite the acclaimed film Torch Song Trilogy, which was gay-themed.)

 

I've seen plenty of PDA on ships, mostly heterosexual. My wife isn't into it at all, we don't go much beyond holding hands in public, even on vacation.

[Ephraim]

The only place I have ever heard the term Friends of Dorothy was on here, prior to my first cruise. If I had not heard the term on here, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between "Friends of Dorothy" and "Friends of Bill W." and from my experience, the reception desk wouldn't have been much help either. And, no, I'm not American. And no, I'm not young either, I'm in my early 40s. I guess I have to apologize for being a middle-aged English Speaking Canadian with a European-Jewish background married to a French Speaking Canadian. I didn't realize I would ever need to apologize for it, though.

 

If I wrote down the term "Divers/cite" or Sex Garage" they wouldn't mean much to most people either. There are a lot of terms out there and a lot of different histories.

 

Cruise ships are 80% American? Really? Where is that statistic from? Someone better tell P&O, Aida and Costa.

 

As for public displays of affection, honestly, not my cup of tea. It has nothing to do with it being Gay, Straight or Bisexual. It's just not something I'm comfortable with... even from others. But that can simply be my upbringing. I don't mind people hand holding.

[Schplinky]

 

Hold hands, sing campfire songs....:cool:

 

Oh, and while you Canadians and I feel the same way about many aspects of U.S. culture, let's be careful tarring everyone in the US with such a broad brush. Much of the liberty GLBT Canadians enjoy to this day is a direct result of activism in the past on the part of your US brethren...and besides, my family's originally from Nova Scotia!!!! Can't we all just get along....:D

 

Kisses,

 

Andrew

 

I'm originally from NS but I don't think we're related. I wish we were.

 

I agree that we have benefitted from US activism and I also think that in part, US gays have paid a debt for the velocity of the gay marriage movement here, which flourished and succeeded quickly because of the strength of our equality rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I say you may have paid a debt because I think a lot of the "let's make sure that never happens here" legislation that has been passed in various states is a reaction to the changing world, which Canada is at the front end of for a change.

 

Some Canadians like to pretend that Canada is a Shangra La and other places are not but in all fairness, gay men were terminated from our civil service for being suspected of being gay, because this was something they could be blackmailed on, as recently as the early seventies. Our Customs service confiscated a great deal of gay literature form a BC bookstore because of the sexuality expressed more than any inherent explicitness and won on appeal. Gay marriage was used in the last two elections by the conservative party because it was such an effective wedge issue and they managed to win the election. We may have more rights under the law but that doesn't mean you see gay men walking hand in hand outside of major centres, and even there it is mostly in the gay villages.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Canada and feel very fortunate to be born here but when folks denigrate other places, I think they must have a plank in their eyes.

 

Sometimes, we need to get over ourselves.

[Schplinky]

 

How open. Ever seen a PDA or involved in one aboard ship?

 

Is dancing a PDA? We do that and nobody has ever batted an eye, or if they've noticed, they haven't scowled.

 

Is having couples pictures a PDA? We do that and again, we are more often encouraged than anything.

 

Is having our beds made up together a PDA? Most of our room attendants have offered. We have them apart because we find the beds narrow and we're all knees and elbows but it's nice that they offer.

 

Is holding hands or having a kiss at the deck railing a PDA? We do that and to my knowledge, nobody has ever been offended or jumped overboard. We don't do it to make a point, unless the point is that we love each other a great deal.

 

In all honesty, if we felt we couldn't be ourselves on a cruise, we likely wouldn't have ever taken a second one.

[Blazerboy]

Etoile, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek about Auntie Mame and the torch songs...but then Derf qouted two things together to make it sound as though I made a factual connection...:o Not my intention.

 

Openness, for me involves NOT changing my behavior from home. It has very little to do with PDA. I introduce Ed as my partner, I say "Honey, would you like something to drink" when he joins me in the Martini bar. I put my hand at the small of his back as I walk with him into dinner, and, yes, I might even give him a peck on the cheek when he says he's going to bed, and instructs me not to stay out too late. I use "we" when talking about our lives together, and when anyone asks if I have a wife, I say "no, I'm with my husband." In short, we act like a couple.

 

The term "PDA" to me implies those public display of physical touches that are generally thought to be better done in private...for ANYONE. There is nothing I've described above that even comes close to that definition.

 

Andrew

[sjbdtz]

I belonged to a Gay Fraternity in college, and, as part of our yearly retreat, we made education of the history of the GLBT community part of the program...films like "Auntie Mame," and "The Women," music that included a healthy dose of torch song singers, and yes, even a little bit of actual written GLBT history! ...so, yeah, I had a "leg up" on the rest of you...gee, THAT sounds a little racy!:o ....But history is important!:)

 

That said, I think the other part of the equation that Aerobear brought up is that, within our community, there are differences of opinion about the term, and about how the meetings should be held- why even this thread has been a back and forth on how "out" the meetings should be.

 

I certainly don't need the whole "discretion" thing when going to a gathering, but I understand that, especially for some (certainly not all!)people from earlier generations, or from different cultures, there can be some desire for what you and I might consider "code" or closet behavior.

 

No one is asking you not to hold your partner/husband's hand (at least I hope not!) but what some folks get out of this gathering is an opportunity to meet up without pushing their comfort levels...my hope is always that, once they see me being quite open with my partner, and interacting with most others on the ship, that it will increase their comfort level, and perhaps even lead them to the point where they don't feel the need to 'be discreet.' But old habits die hard, and I certainly want to keep that particular venue open to them. Me, I'm off meeting hundreds of all sorts of folks and brainwashing them...er....interacting with them as an out gay man...yeah, that's it...so I don't need the FOD gatherings personally...but I DO remember what it was like...a few million years ago, it seems, when I wasn't out of the closet.:)

 

Hold hands, sing campfire songs....:cool:

 

Oh, and while you Canadians and I feel the same way about many aspcts of U.S. culture, let's be careful tarring everyone in the US with such a broad brush. Much of the liberty GLBT Canadians enjoy to this day is a direct result of activism in the past on the part of your US brethren...and besides, my family's originally from Nova Scotia!!!! Can't we all just get along....:D

 

Kisses,

 

Andrew

 

You mention that you don't need FOD meetings because you interact with an Out crowd regularly.

 

FOD meetings provide three benefits, in my opinion:

- They save our gaydar from a lot of wear & tear during the trip...by definitively identifying our compatriots

- They may provide a degree of safe-haven for less out people who feel comforted by the notion of having other gay people onboard

- They provide an opportunity to develop friendships, without having to dance around the whole sexuality discussion.

 

 

Torch Songs might include:

Etta James : The man I lvoe

Earth Kitt: Smoke gets in your eyes

Dionne Warwick: Just one of those things.

 

It's just another word for melancholy music.

[Schplinky]

Etoile, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek about Auntie Mame and the torch songs...but then Derf qouted two things together to make it sound as though I made a factual connection...:o Not my intention.

 

Openness, for me involves NOT changing my behavior from home. It has very little to do with PDA. I introduce Ed as my partner, I say "Honey, would you like something to drink" when he joins me in the Martini bar. I put my hand at the small of his back as I walk with him into dinner, and, yes, I might even give him a peck on the cheek when he says he's going to bed, and instructs me not to stay out too late. I use "we" when talking about our lives together, and when anyone asks if I have a wife, I say "no, I'm with my husband." In short, we act like a couple.

 

The term "PDA" to me implies those public display of physical touches that are generally thought to be better done in private...for ANYONE. There is nothing I've described above that even comes close to that definition.

 

Andrew

 

 

Andrew,

 

Great post.

 

You have articulated in fewer words than I would need how I feel about travelling as a couple.

[tompeter]

Andrew, your description of traveling as a couple could be words taken out of my mouth as well...

 

Well Spoken.

 

Tom

[Blazerboy]

You mention that you don't need FOD meetings because you interact with an Out crowd regularly.

 

FOD meetings provide three benefits, in my opinion:

- They save our gaydar from a lot of wear & tear during the trip...by definitively identifying our compatriots

- They may provide a degree of safe-haven for less out people who feel comforted by the notion of having other gay people onboard

- They provide an opportunity to develop friendships, without having to dance around the whole sexuality discussion.

No, you misunderstood me (the way I yammer on, it's not hard...everyone does!:o )

 

I don't NEED them, because I'm comfortable in almost any social situation, but I'm glad they're there...mostly for your reason #2. Reason #1 doesn't apply, because I live in S.F. and asssume everyone is gay until proven otherwise! Makes for some great conversations with straight men and their wives! And reason #3 isn't a problem for me because I'm just getting to know people socially, not asking to sleep with them! So the "Are you or aren't you?" isn't an issue. But I do usually go to at least the first FOD....to show support, solidarity, whatever...and just in case they didn't "get it" upon the sight of me! ;) And hey, sometimes, occasionally I make more friends!! :D

 

The reason I don't need them is that when I'm on a cruise, I like to make friends, but I don't NEED them to be gay friends...but if they are, great. Equal opportunity friendship offered...you just need to be fun!:)

 

Andrew

[bdjam]

A gathering on a cruise ship isn't a history lesson, it's a social event. They should use a term that the people they hope will come to the event know. I truly think it's that simple.

 

I'm all for knowing our history but I'm also for living in the present.

 

Even if Judy is rolling in her grave, she was well-enough marinated that she'll be fine. For that matter, so will Dorothy Parker, who others claim this phrase relates to. Apparently, the gays like their boozy broads!

The Judy statement was a little joke – obviously too little – and in reality it wasn’t being marinated that got her – narcotics, you know. She had to do something to keep the nitro-glycerin she had running through her head at bay.

At the risk of straying back into the subject matter that got another poster and me soundly bashed on this forum, the reason “Friends of Dorothy” was initially started by the cruise lines was to send a coded message to its gay and lesbian travelers. Because of an incorrect assumption that we were looking to hide something and not be ourselves, the cruise lines thought the code would be appropriate. Not only that, it kept the vicious straight people guessing as to what was going on.

Moving into more enlightened times – at least we hope – I think most of us agree that we don’t need the code. Some of us don’t think we need the gatherings and while I feel as Blazerboy does, that I can mingle with most people on board, it is nice to get together with a group of people that share common backgrounds. I’ve had some great times on board ships with people that I’ve met at FOD gatherings and who I’ve spent time with on shore and at sea.

I sat with a member of the cruise staff on Island Princess a couple of years ago and gave him some suggestions as to what to call an FOD gathering – because as I posted, the ship was getting complaints because straight people were showing up thinking something else was being presented. If one’s particular cruise line is using the wrong terminology, ask them to change it to something else. And then thank them for facilitating a social environment where gay people can meet gay people.