Straights attending FOD meetings

[Blazerboy]

You and I share the same goal of having it be less an issue, so no bashing from me. :) As long as everyone agrees to read at least one gay history book in the next year! ;)

 

But I do wonder if your version of how the use of the name came about on cruise lines is actually a little too hopeful about the cruise lines' motives....I doubt the cruise lines did this to attract anyone...more likely, it was inserted at a passenger's request, and slowly became the standard....before the line even knew what was going on....except for perhaps a few gay crew members. More than likely, it was merely tolerated by the lines for years, and now they are more comfortable simply maintaining it. O.k., so THAT part's a little sad...

 

So, while I'm all for people being out, I'm still supportive if the term/party is usefull for those GLBT people that aren't.:) (Just remember, I live in a town where one of the hot clubs has a party called F@g Fridays and no one bats an eye....:rolleyes: so who am I to talk, afterall!:D )

 

Andrew

[bdjam]

(Just remember, I live in a town where one of the hot clubs has a party called F@g Fridays and no one bats an eye....:rolleyes: so who am I to talk, afterall!:D )

 

Andrew

Why did I think you lived in the East Bay? Has 1220 in Walnut Creek changed their Fridays? ;)

[etoile]

Etoile, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek about Auntie Mame and the torch songs...but then Derf qouted two things together to make it sound as though I made a factual connection...:o Not my intention.

No, I totally get it, Blazerboy. I was just going from what Derf had taken it to be. :)

 

The term "PDA" to me implies those public display of physical touches that are generally thought to be better done in private...for ANYONE. There is nothing I've described above that even comes close to that definition.

What you described is pretty much how my wife and I are too, although sometimes she gets nervous and insists on cheek kisses instead of pecks on the lips. And yeah, PDA would be humping her leg in public, or something. :D

[tinlizzy]

Still reading the thread...hope you don't think it's an intrusion.

 

Ephraim- The Travel Channel did shows on cruises two weeks ago and the statistics they cited were 12 millions cruisers worldwide. 10 million are from the US.

 

I'm glad you gave the Sheraton employee the benefit of the doubt. My teenage son and I had a very nice elderly gay couple (30 yrs together) for tablemates at an all-inclusive and they thought my son was my boyfriend. My son is black/mixed and fairly dark complected. Even after we told them we were mother and son, they thought we were kidding, then that he was adopted. It's all perspective and experience I suppose.

 

Trivia aside on the FOD/LGBT debate....Why are you all so understanding of "closeted" gays/lebians. Especially on a cruise ship away from everyone they know. My son is black in the winter and blacker in the summer. He has nowhere to hide. I wonder if he would choose to abet a black person that chose to "pass"? I would think that FOD is just perpetuating the idea that there is shame in being gay. And yes there is shame associated with Friends of Bill W. because a person had an addiction (normal alcohol consuption is perfectly accepted). I don't think these two can be compared without implying both are shameful. IMHO the only valid post I read for leaving the name FOD was to avoid harassment by straight lunatics and voyeurs.

 

The ships have divorced parents and singles meetings and both are called such.

[txflyer]

And yes there is shame associated with Friends of Bill W. because a person had an addiction (normal alcohol consuption is perfectly accepted).

 

Its doubtful that the Friends of Bill W would agree that they feel shame. (and inappropriate for any of us on the outside to draw that conclusion) My guess is they are proud they have overcome an addiction. There is no shame in feeling pride. ..>>jack

[02143]

I belonged to a Gay Fraternity in college, and, as part of our yearly retreat, we made education of the history of the GLBT community part of the program...films like "Auntie Mame," and "The Women,"

 

Talking about history lessons... my partner and I watched "The Women" a few months ago and afterwards I found out he had no idea why all of them had to go stay in Reno for the middle of the movie. A little piece of cultural awareness that has faded...

[Blazerboy]

Tinlizzy,

 

Glad to have you here!:)

 

But while there are similarities to different kinds of oppression, you really can't compare the experiences exactly. Do I feel discrimination? Yes, sometimes. Do I feel it simply by walking into a store? Nope....no one has ever followed me around, watching me, other than to try and generate extra sales! So there are many differences to what we might feel, but the sense of oppression can remain.

 

If there is an "advantage" (and I HATE to use that word!) it's that your son knows his skin color, although he may or may not have understood why people reacted to it, and had to learn about the hate. But he knows. For many in the GLBT community, the coming out process has to do first with learning that you are not the same as most everyone around you, second that who you are is hated by many, and third, that you have to come to terms with this over a period of time that often intersects with puberty, high school, and young adulthood, some of the most tumultuous times. Not to say it's harder, just a different experience that happens over a different time frame.

 

So yes, having gone through that, while I hope everyone's out and proud, etc., I remember clearly what it was like...risking rejection by sharing more of myself with people. So I tolerate and support others, and hope that they 'self-actualize' in a positive way eventually. If that includes a term from our past that some see as closeted, I can live with that...but it never puts ME back in the closet.:cool:

 

I should also add that, even in 2007, it is still considered more acceptable to hate Gays, to hurt Gays, to discriminate against Gays. It's changing, but it's still there. A few drunken yahoos on a cruise ship, and it doesn't matter how self actualized I am...I'm still a potential target for their hate. While just covering up racism, and having people repress their racism isn't a huge improvement, it HAS provided a climate in everyday life that restrains most folks form acting on their feelings....in my opinion, those feelings aren't held in check as much when it comes to Homophobia. Just tune into religious programs or Fox News to compare the open hostility...

 

Again, not arguing that either oppression is the same, better, or worse, just that, whatever the similarities and differences, we understand and fight them both.

 

What a cheery post!:(

 

Deep breath everyone.:)

 

Andrew

[Blazerboy]

my partner and I watched "The Women" a few months ago

Ah...one of my favorites! "That Crystal Allen is a real man-trap!....she has the kinda' eyes that go UP and down a man...like a soich(search) light!"

 

hee, hee...:D

 

Andrew

[sjbdtz]

I should also add that, even in 2007, it is still considered more acceptable to hate Gays, to hurt Gays, to discriminate against Gays. It's changing, but it's still there. A few drunken yahoos on a cruise ship, and it doesn't matter how self actualized I am...I'm still a potential target for their hate. While just covering up racism, and having people repress their racism isn't a huge improvement, it HAS provided a climate in everyday life that restrains most folks form acting on their feelings....in my opinion, those feelings aren't held in check as much when it comes to Homophobia. Just tune into religious programs or Fox News to compare the open hostility...

 

Again, not arguing that either oppression is the same, better, or worse, just that, whatever the similarities and differences, we understand and fight them both.

 

 

Two things:

 

1. Even those who have been oppressed themselves, see no irony in oppressing gay people.

 

2. One doesn't have to watch Fox News....there's a CNN headline where a top US General has decided that gay people are against HIS morals, and therefore the army should treat us as lesser individuals.

[tinlizzy]

jack- I agree. But their whole 12 step program revolves around atonement/forgiving themselves for the havoc they've wreaked in lives.

 

Personally I think they should be called AA meetings and FOD Gay/Lesbian meet and greet. Just get on with it so to speak. Make it mainstream, make it accepted, force the issue, demand straight people take a stand with you, mutiny!(to stay on topic:) ).

 

Andrew- I did flinch when Ephraim asked if you all should demand a name change. I know you all are very discriminated against (violently, at times) and I thought it might be asking for trouble, in numerous ways. You are right that my sons skin color has forced him to get a handle on who he is and how he fits into the scheme of things. But this year (he is 15) has been the hardest for him. Starting with a girl who had a crush on him and called him her chocolate boy. It sort of diminished him as a person and sent him into a mini tail spin again about where he fits in to society. What if the cruiselines had a Hershey bar or jungle meet and greet. Doesn't that make you cringe.

 

I feel like FOD diminishes you all as people somehow. Makes it okay for straights to laugh and continue to be indifferent. You all should come out and force the bigoted behaviors in the closet.

 

sjbdtz- you are so right about that.

[shepp]

j

 

I feel like FOD diminishes you all as people somehow. Makes it okay for straights to laugh and continue to be indifferent. You all should come out and force the bigoted behaviors in the closet.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. Passing is excusable in the face of immanent violence, understandable when faced with the loss of a child, job, or apartment, but, IMO, cowardly when done simply to avoid possible discomfort. And if someone does choose remain in the closet, he or she pretty well forfeits the right to complain about homophobia. That's not to say I myself don't take the easy way out...e.g.,although I'm totally out to my mom, there are still a number of other things I lack the courage to say. My bad. On the other hand, my very het mother has worn a pink triangle pin in public, so go Mom!

 

I would never out someone unless he or she were actively working against gay rights. (Hello, Ted Haggard!) But neither can I convince myself that lying about oneself (either by omission or commission) is politically, psychologically, or morally healthy. Besides, passing is so Imitation of Life.

 

As far as FOD: The term's not really inclusive, skewing toward gay men. It's not universally comprehensible, even to queers. And it's not in common usage outside the rarified confines of cruise ships. How about "The Light in the Loafers League?"

[shepp]

Two things:

 

1. Even those who have been oppressed themselves, see no irony in oppressing gay people.

 

 

And, conversely, there are plenty of racist, classist, ageist, misogynist, or whateverist queers out there.

[Blazerboy]

Besides, passing is so Imitation of Life.

LOL!:D

 

One doesn't have to watch Fox News....there's a CNN headline where ....

You're right that the evidence is there on CNN too...what I was implying...none too subtly, I thought...was that the editorial team on Fox is much more likely to defend the rights of the likes of Peck, rather than condemn his homophobia...:rolleyes:

 

Andrew- I did flinch when Ephraim asked if you all should demand a name change. I know you all are very discriminated against (violently, at times) and I thought it might be asking for trouble, in numerous ways. You are right that my sons skin color has forced him to get a handle on who he is and how he fits into the scheme of things. But this year (he is 15) has been the hardest for him. Starting with a girl who had a crush on him and called him her chocolate boy. It sort of diminished him as a person and sent him into a mini tail spin again about where he fits in to society. What if the cruiselines had a Hershey bar or jungle meet and greet. Doesn't that make you cringe.

:) Actually, I'm glad Ephraim asked...I'm likely to act on his suggestion, too! It's just that, while I try to be out, honest and open about who I am, I still remember what it was like to wrestle with those decisions about coming out, and try not to second guess someone else's experience. As far as your son, dealing with "difference," no matter what the source, is difficult for a teenager...it seems, though, that he 'chose' the right parents!:D Armchair view is that you will be a tremendous help to him in getting through this and thriving, given the openness you display here. Good luck to you both.... And yes, those two terms make me do more than wince...

 

In general:

 

FOD may only have common usage today in the cruise industry, but it's not an industry creation. It's a term from the history of our movement, and I think that's why so many of us have some fondness for it. While I may not like what it implies about the need for discretion or being closeted, I do like that WE (O.k., my GLBT forebearers...) came up with it as a way to cope with society. Honoring its place in history is no different than reclaiming the pink triangle from usage in concentration camps in Germany. FOD is certainly a more male oriented term, but it's not quite accurate to say it wasn't used by women. The underground communities in both San Francisco and New York had references to it in both men's and women's communities. (I know, I know, those two cities aren't the center of the world, and, yes, sometimes we act like they are...)

 

And, conversely, there are plenty of racist, classist, ageist, misogynist, or whateverist queers out there

and isn't that the saddest part of it all...one hopes for better from any oppressed group.

 

Cheers, and thanks for reading....if nothing else, this academic discussion might educate a few of us. (I include myself in that "us," too.)

 

Andrew

[shepp]

LOL!:D

 

FOD may only have common usage today in the cruise industry, but it's not an industry creation. It's a term from the history of our movement, and I think that's why so many of us have some fondness for it. While I may not like what it implies about the need for discretion or being closeted, I do like that WE (O.k., my GLBT forebearers...) came up with it as a way to cope with society. Honoring its place in history is no different than reclaiming the pink triangle from usage in concentration camps in Germany. FOD is certainly a more male oriented term, but it's not quite accurate to say it wasn't used by women. The underground communities in both San Francisco and New York had references to it in both men's and women's communities. (I know, I know, those two cities aren't the center of the world, and, yes, sometimes we act like they are...)

 

 

Hmmm...you're prolly right. I came up with the male-oriented comment because the commonly referenced Judy Garland is certainly a gay male, rather than a lesbian, icon, and, alternatively, Ms. Parker's well-honed wit is rather queeny. But women may well have used the term, as well.

 

Speaking of which...I went to a panel a long while back, when Queer Nation had just started (controversially) reclaiming the q-word, and a lesbian who'd come of age in the early 1950s said, "I don't know what the fuss is about. We all called ourselves 'queer' back then."

 

I, too, am all in favor of honoring history. But if we're going to adopt non-transparent nomenclature, why not use a term that reflects liberation rather than adaptation to oppression? "Stonewall Cruisers," say, or the increasing popular letter "Q," as in, "Q Cruisers?" (Oh, wait, some straight cruiser might think that was a James Bond reference.) Even "pride," though it is one of the seven deadlies, and Carnival might object. There's also "rainbow," of course, but that brings up, for me, thoughts of all the rainbow-colored made-in-China plastic dreck on the market...

 

Oh, the hell with it. Let's call ourselves "The Sailing Sodomites" and have done with it. ;)

[Blazerboy]

Oh, the hell with it. Let's call ourselves "The Sailing Sodomites" and have done with it. ;)

:D LOL :D

 

And yes, walking through almost any neighborhood in S.F. and seeing Rainbow flags flapping in the breeze is really nice, but when a million of us get together for "Pride" every June, it makes me long for another color scheme to represent us...how about basic black and pearls?;)

 

Andrew

[derf5585]

Oh, the hell with it. Let's call ourselves "The Sailing Sodomites" and have done with it. ;)

 

Now if I made that suggestion would I have been slammed?

[Schplinky]

Now if I made that suggestion would I have been slammed?

 

You would have been criticised for not acknowledging the diversity of sexual expression within the community. :)

[etoile]

You would have been criticised for not acknowledging the diversity of sexual expression within the community. :)

Y'know, that actually DID come to mind, I was gonna say "hey I'm not a sodomite" but I kept my mouth shut. ;)

[derf5585]

"hey I'm not a sodomite" but I kept my mouth shut. ;)

 

Is that a double entendre?

[Blazerboy]

Sorry to break it to ya', Etoile, but, according to Webster's Dictionary, "but ya' are, Blanche, ya' are....

 

Good one, Derf!:D

 

Andrew

[etoile]

Is that a double entendre?

Erm...well...sodomy doesn't usually involve the mouth. So, I would have to say no. But any more than that and I think we will get a reminder that this is a family board! :p

[Blazerboy]

It actually does, more often than not...

 

Andrew

[etoile]

I am totally innocent, pure, and virginal. I have no idea what you are talking about. *whistles innocently*

[Blazerboy]

"plink*"

 

 

 

(*The sound of this topic delicately being dropped, as we are in the presence of an innocent!;) )

 

Andrew

[MattInFLL]

Sorry, the law student in me can't resist - at common law, sodomy was *any* sex act other than man and woman engaged in traditional intercourse.... so we *all* qualify :)