Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[dougnewmanatsea]

Ruby - Who told you CORINTHIAN II is owned by two Greek-Americans?

 

She is owned by Clipper Group, a Danish company, and managed by ISP, a Miami company owned by Clipper and its Danish CEO, Niels-Erik Lund.

 

She would probably not be my first choice for an Antarctic cruise as I think there are other ships that are better suited to this region (e.g. the Lindblad ships) but she is definitely not Greek (not that I would have a problem with her if she were).

[Saga Ruby]

Ruby - Who told you CORINTHIAN II is owned by two Greek-Americans?

 

She is owned by Clipper Group, a Danish company, and managed by ISP, a Miami company owned by Clipper and its Danish CEO, Niels-Erik Lund.

 

No one told me. I slipped on a premise and sprawled to a conclusion. I ran Travel Dynamics on the Web and the owners of that booking agency, which seemed to own the ships, are Greek-Americans. I continue to be gobsmacked at the number of Greek ferries and cruise ships, sailing in their own waters of the Aegean, that keep running aground or sinking their vessels. As I've noted previously, I strive not to sail on Greek cruise ships.

 

How do the Danes decide which Masters are assigned to their ships? I do not equate Danish ownership to a particular nationality of crew on their Bridge. However, thanks for the research on the actual owners of this particular line.

 

Ruby

[Conte Di Savoia]

I see that ISP was managing Clipper Pacific, ex Song of Norway, which was recently held in New York with a leaking hull and other safety related issues. I think she was under charter at the time but still, one has to wonder what was going on with her maintenance.

[franu]

I continue to be gobsmacked at the number of Greek ferries and cruise ships, sailing in their own waters of the Aegean, that keep running aground or sinking their vessels.

 

I believe that the ownership and captains are both responsible for the maintenance of the ship. Combine that with attitude and responsibility. I second Ruby's decision.

Fran

[Host Sharon]

 

I know there was a movie made of the sinking and there are some interesting websites regarding the incident. This and today's news of two ships crashing in port of Pireus as well as makes me hesitant to board a Greek ship.

Fran

 

 

It was the notorious Louis Lines yet again - I am sure their captains must train using dodgems!! Personally I wouldn't like to sail on a Greek ship. They do seem to have a higher than normal accident rate.

[Saga Ruby]

I see that ISP was managing Clipper Pacific, ex Song of Norway, which was recently held in New York with a leaking hull and other safety related issues. I think she was under charter at the time but still, one has to wonder what was going on with her maintenance.

 

Maintenance? What maintenance? Evidently the owners' attitude was to tie her up at the dock and see if she sank in place. If her keel didn't touch ground, then off she was sent to the next port. Gives a whole new meaning to the word "gamblers."

 

Which reminds me, Donald - are you going to see that ship in Vancouver? Were you able to find a sticking plaster sized in meters?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Maintenance? What maintenance? Evidently the owners' attitude was to tie her up at the dock and see if she sank in place. If her keel didn't touch ground, then off she was sent to the next port. Gives a whole new meaning to the word "gamblers."

 

Which reminds me, Donald - are you going to see that ship in Vancouver? Were you able to find a sticking plaster sized in meters?

 

Ruby

 

The Port of Vancouver site still has Clipper Pacific on its schedule for Friday, August 8. I may miss her if I go with a couple of pals to Whistler for a few days during that time. I hope, though, to see her, and to find out if she is down at the bow and listing 15 degrees to one side, with passengers continuing to embark on her.

 

Do you suppose that Wal-Mart might have a sticking plaster sized in meters? Gosh, I do hate shopping ...

 

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

No one told me. I slipped on a premise and sprawled to a conclusion. I ran Travel Dynamics on the Web and the owners of that booking agency, which seemed to own the ships, are Greek-Americans.

Yes, Travel Dynamics International might give you the impression that it owns ships, but it doesn't own. It's not a cruise line in the traditional sense, it's an office in New York that sells cruises on ships it charters.

 

How do the Danes decide which Masters are assigned to their ships? I do not equate Danish ownership to a particular nationality of crew on their Bridge. However, thanks for the research on the actual owners of this particular line.

I don't believe ISP's bridge officers are any particular nationality. It's a mix, as is commonly the case these days.

 

I see that ISP was managing Clipper Pacific, ex Song of Norway, which was recently held in New York with a leaking hull and other safety related issues. I think she was under charter at the time but still, one has to wonder what was going on with her maintenance.

She is owned by Clipper Group and managed and operated by ISP.

 

All Clipper Group/ISP ships are on charter.

 

Maintenance? What maintenance? Evidently the owners' attitude was to tie her up at the dock and see if she sank in place. If her keel didn't touch ground, then off she was sent to the next port. Gives a whole new meaning to the word "gamblers."

I would not go that far.

 

In fact, aside from the hole, which I will get to in a minute, I don't know exactly what was wrong. Yes, we have a number of deficiencies and generalizations like "problems with lifeboats" but that could mean the lettering on the lifeboats is the wrong size or it could mean the lifeboats don't float.

 

I am very wary of jumping to conclusions based on inspections like this. That is not to say that they aren't useful, but they're also far from perfect, and the inconsistency is somewhat alarming The same ship that gets zero deficiencies noted one day can get 20 noted the next day. I'm not exaggerating... 18 June 2003, REGAL EMPRESS was inspected in Miami and no deficiencies were noted. 19 June 2003, same ship was inspected in Port Everglades and 20 deficiencies, 11 of which were grounds for detention, were noted and she was detained for five days. 11 deficiencies that were grounds for detention cannot possibly have materialized overnight, so obviously one inspector was wrong.

 

In this case we are talking about a newly acquired ship on her first voyage after a major refit on her first call in the US in more than five years. In those circumstances it is pretty easy to rack up a lot of minor deficiencies. I don't know if that's what happened, but it is quite possible. With just minimal information, none of us is in any position to judge whether the ship was being operated in an unsafe manner. I am inclined against condemning ISP because of one inspection on one ship... We have all had a bad day sometimes.

 

As for the hole, the ship developed a small hole while she was en route from Greenland the US. The hole was reported to the US authorities before the ship arrived in port. The US Coast Guard proceeded to issue a press release saying that its inspection "revealed a hole", which was patently false and of course was picked up by the press and resulted in a totally false impression of the actual events. Later press releases dropped that line, but no retraction, correction or apology was ever issued... Very bad form on the part of the USCG.

[Saga Ruby]

Doug, we have antithetical views on the same information. I was trying to make light of what I consider serious problems on Clipper Pacific. I didn't mean to upset you. You and I will have to agree to disagree.

 

Ruby

[Saga Ruby]

Do you suppose that Wal-Mart might have a sticking plaster sized in meters? Gosh, I do hate shopping ...Donald.

 

Yes, shopping is so yesterday. It's the Internet and UPS for me!

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Doug, we have antithetical views on the same information.

 

I've never heard of the word antithetical, but after looking it up in the dictionary I'm glad to learn something new in my doddering old age.

 

Yes, shopping is so yesterday. It's the Internet and UPS for me!

 

What about clothes and appliances ... do you buy them online? I'm still old-fashioned in that I prefer to see and touch them before buying those items. I've only recently started to inspect clothes labels to ensure that the materials are wrinkle-free or need no ironing, because of frequent cruises and suitcase packings.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

I've never heard of the word antithetical, but after looking it up in the dictionary I'm glad to learn something new in my doddering old age. Donald.

 

Yeah, we should all look so good at your "doddering old age!"

 

Ruby

[Conte Di Savoia]

Gosh, I do hate shopping ...

 

Donald.

This is where Donald and I have to part ways. My motto has been, "When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping" or alternativelly, "cruising."

[dougnewmanatsea]

Doug, we have antithetical views on the same information. I was trying to make light of what I consider serious problems on Clipper Pacific. I didn't mean to upset you.

Oh, I'm not upset. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It's just that we really have very little information to go on, and some of what was reported by the Coast Guard and consequently the press was totally false, which gives me pause about the rest of it.

 

It is quite possible that the ship does have serious problems. Well, the hole is a potentially serious problem, but only if it wasn't repaired, as the ship's operator could hardly help it coming in the first place, and contrary to the USCG press statement, knew it was there and went so far to tell the authorities about it. The other problems could be anything from serious to totally inconsequential. The lack of detail makes it impossible to know whether ship had problems or not.

 

I just don't want to jump to any conclusions.

 

Yes, shopping is so yesterday. It's the Internet and UPS for me!

Now that we can agree on! And to think people actually go shopping for fun! To me it is a chore. Of course, as a man I am not supposed to like shopping according to the prevailing gender stereotypes.

[Conte Di Savoia]

I am very wary of jumping to conclusions based on inspections like this. That is not to say that they aren't useful, but they're also far from perfect, and the inconsistency is somewhat alarming The same ship that gets zero deficiencies noted one day can get 20 noted the next day. I'm not exaggerating... 18 June 2003, REGAL EMPRESS was inspected in Miami and no deficiencies were noted. 19 June 2003, same ship was inspected in Port Everglades and 20 deficiencies, 11 of which were grounds for detention, were noted and she was detained for five days. 11 deficiencies that were grounds for detention cannot possibly have materialized overnight, so obviously one inspector was wrong.

 

We have all had a bad day sometimes.

 

I would agree with you that inspectors can come to different conclusions, however, when it comes to safety, the worst report is the one which needs to be acted upon. After over 30 years in a field which is highly regulated by multiple governmental and non-governmental agencies I can attest to the truth of what Doug has commented upon, but we always had to act on the least favorable evaluation which impacted safety. All deficiencies had, by law, to be addressed so whining about how unfair an evaluation was, or that some other inspector didn't think there was a problem was an exercise in futility. That the line volunteered that there was a problem is commendable, but still, there was a problem. Older ships are most prone to develop problems as their infrastructure deteriorates, but in the final analysis, the line is responsible for their vessel. That's just the way it is.

[franu]

Yes, shopping is so yesterday. It's the Internet and UPS for me!

As a fellow Canadian I can empathize with Donald although my reason is different.

• Most internet shopping sites are in the USA. Not only must on pay in US$ but the prices in US$ are often higher than the CDN$ which is actually worth slightly more but we are also charged conversion fees by the banks.
  
• Many sites will not accept orders for merchandise paid on credit cards that are not drawn on a US bank with an American address.
  
• We not only pay more for shipping but must pay duty to Canada Customs.

I would probably buy more if I could. Oh well! I guess that I will have to go cruising instead.

Fran

 

WOW, this is page 100

[Kapricorn]

WOW, this is page 100

 

I hadn't paid attention to page numbers, Fran ... so, this is page 100! WOW, indeed!

 

Also, I know that Doug will pass off as my quirky sense of humour about Clipper Pacific being down by the bow and listing 15 degrees to one side while in Vancouver. Safety concerns are serious, and I applaud the authorities for bringing the deficiencies to light.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

Yes, isn't it loverly? I clearly remember starting this thread almost two years ago and absorbing the completel silence of any replies for two months until Conte spoke up. I enjoy so much our circle of friends on Cruise Critic and our very, ahem, civilized conversations, exchanges of information, and discussions. And I am gobsmacked that there are 4 more threads about Saga Cruises on this very forum.

 

Fran - I had no idea about the details in Canada about ordering items on the Web from the US. I'll have Conte laughing but I really really need a new set of beige towels but I cannot bear to think of driving to the mall, two miles from my house!

 

Donald - you need to sit down for this one, but I bought my washer, my dryer, and my refrigerator off the Web this year. Never saw them in person. I have an excellent relationship with a salesman who used to be a computer network manager and he shines at sending me emails and photos of products that sound like what I want. And I buy fabric overseas then hand it off to my dressmaker. If I die and go to hell, it will surely be a shopping mall.

 

Ruby

[franu]

I may miss her if I go with a couple of pals to Whistler for a few days during that time.

 

From the looks of that rock-slide it will be a while before you will be able to use The Sea -to-Sky highway to get to Whistler. I must say that the highway always frightened me with the road so close to the sides and the signs warning you of the possibility of slides. It even ripped up the railway tracks.

 

I believe that there is another way to go for a while but can you get to Whistler without using the Sea-to-Sky?

Fran

[CGTNORMANDIE]

 

Donald - ...If I die and go to hell, it will surely be a shopping mall.

Ruby

 

LOL LOL LOL!!!

 

R

[Saga Ruby]

It looks like a giant picked up the ship and shook it:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/multimedia/image.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10524687&gallery_id=1760

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Donald - you need to sit down for this one, but I bought my washer, my dryer, and my refrigerator off the Web this year.

 

I not only was sitting, but I just about fell off the chair!

 

If I die and go to hell, it will surely be a shopping mall.

 

My version of Hell is being stuck in an airport terminal, with not an aircraft in sight.

 

I believe that there is another way to go for a while but can you get to Whistler without using the Sea-to-Sky?

 

There is a 6-hour alternate route which runs through the interior of British Columbia. There's no other way without using the Sea-to-Sky unless by motorboat. There's no ferry service between Vancouver & Squamish.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

Did I tell you about the time, on SS Constitution in heavy Pacific seas, when the grand piano broke loose from the "guy wires", came off the stage, and went through the plate glass doors of the casino? (Of course,the doors shattered!)

 

I do think I told you about Golden Princess in the Atlantic, when large windows along Prom Deck were shattering due to the ship flexing in heavy seas. Lot of glass damage on that trip.

 

It can be rough out there, although every time I've sailed in the same waters where Pacific Sun was sailing, it has been smooth.

[dougnewmanatsea]

If I die and go to hell, it will surely be a shopping mall.

I feel exactly the same way. Horrible places.

[Saga Ruby]

Have you made any decisions about your next cruise line after Marco Polo changed hands, or do you think you might try her under the new owner?

 

When Royal Viking Line pulled up the gangway, I felt bereft. It took me awhile to make choices about cruise lines then, when I found Saga Cruises and Oceania, I knew I had found a new home. But it's awkward making that decision and hoping for the best.

 

Ruby