17 People robbed on Conquest Jamaica excursion

[Sargent_Schultz]

The statistics of Jamaican on Jamaican crime are still irrelevant. The tourists are better protected than the Jamaicans.

[El Chief]

I have been informed that Television Stations in Miami, Los Angeles, and Austin, as well as a Texas Network have carried this "Lethe Village Plantation" crime story. So, the three Stations that I knew of, was a severe understatement; none of these were included in my count of three. I don't know if the newspaper reports "one a half page story", still stand at two, that's just the number that I have read.

 

But, yesterday we still had "SanAntoniogal" that was new to the story. I would like to suggest she read posts #1, #93, and #94 - there she will learn the human side of this crime. I see the technical debate going on about liability and points of law. But, these were human victims, that had their lives violently interrupted. And, are now suffering, not only the financial losses, but emotional ones as well.

 

Sargent Schultz, do you know (or anybody else know) the "post number" for your first contribution made to this thread? I would like to read it. Thank you in advance.

 

El Chief

[bunting]

Hi, while this is a US DoJ document and concerned about crimes against tourists in the US, it does mention that the model is relevant abroad

 

http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/mime/open.pdf?Item=1306

 

I found it a very interesting document and thought some of you might be interested to read it.....

[kwilliams6045]

Sargent,

 

The stuff that was recovered was not much and what was recovered was damaged in some way.

 

You're right, someone was shot and killed. The other one SHOT HIS way out.

 

As afr as a "hate Crime"..They called us F____ing foreigners and stated they would kill us all.

 

If someone called you that and stated they would kill you, do you think they liked you or hated you?

 

No remarks were made in regards to race, but why would they call us F____ing Foreigners, why did the "foreigner" part come into play? Foreigner covers everyone who is not from Jamaica.

 

Their over all goal was the money, but believe me, the words out of their mouths were not to control us, it was to be hateful.

 

Also, there is no such thing as a "simple robbery". Ask anyone who has been robbed, I'm sure they would say it was not simple.

 

Do you have kids?

[Sargent_Schultz]

cannino, you may or may not be an idiot, but what inference do you take from the cruise director statement of "guaranteed safety" "safety" from what? that is a direct question to you, by your responce I will then form an answer to the question I postulated, Regards

 

If you had read the cruise contract, why would you not question such statements, if in fact, they were made?

 

And if you had purchased the excursion tickets prior to any such statements, the statements would not be relevant.

 

"(b) Carnival’s vessels visit numerous ports in a number of countries. Guests assume responsibility for their own safety and Carnival cannot guarantee Guest’s safety at any time. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers and Carnival strongly recommends Guests obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Carnival assumes no responsibility for gathering said information. The Guest acknowledges that the cruise may be booked in a location that is susceptible to severe weather systems, including but not limited to, hurricanes, tropical storms and depressions, and that Carnival reserves the right to alter the ship’s course, ports of call, itinerary, activity and shore excursions to avoid such weather systems and insure the comfort and safety of the Guest and crew.".

[El Chief]

Sargent Schultz, I can tell you that your statement about "much" of the stolen property being recovered and returned is "absolutely not true". A Carnival spokesman did report that to a Galveston newspaper, but we have corrected that record for them.

 

El Chief

[bunting]

The statistics of Jamaican on Jamaican crime are still irrelevant. The tourists are better protected than the Jamaicans.

 

And maybe because of that some Jamaicans have resentment?

 

If you protect, or try to protect, everyone to the same standards you hopefully reduce resentment and the perception of privilege........

 

I feel sure that those poor kids did not see it as a simple robbery and likely never will, and send them and their families our best wishes ...

[Sargent_Schultz]

A hate crime to me would be related to race, religion, creed...

 

Were there people of different gender, race, and/or religion on the tour? Wasn't everyone robbed?

[lornadoons]

okay, i signed off on this thread about 300 post ago because it was getting crazy...:mad: but i still get "alerted" with the new posts...

come on... give these people a break! bluebonnet, kenneth and el chief who were involved directly will only know the true terror of what they experienced, and I for one could never even compare it with anything I have ever experienced. All they intended to do was WARN people... NOT get raked over the coals by their verbage and defending what they were warning about... and that was to let future CRUISERS know about their experience and the dangers FIRST HAND as THEY experienced it.

A gun to a child's head or ANYONE's head deserved to be talked about here and posted. Simple robbery????? I think not...I have been a victim as well as most people I know, of a simple robbery, and THIS was not a simple robbery. They have stated over and over since post 1 that the forum was intended to get their stories out... and I for one am glad they did as I wouldn't have heard about it otherwise from other sources... (ie the cruise line)

I too, did not have a bad experience in Jamaica as I posted a while back, but I left with a bad impression from what I saw and how we were treated while there. Our excursion was great, we fortunately were not involved with any violence, but I know I appreciated these people who were among the 17 represented, to get the word out. For those of you who adamently defend Jamaica, so be it... just give these folks a break. Emotions are high ... look what they've been through... for those in the "attack mode"... I just hope nothing like this ever happens to you!

Okay, now rip me apart too... :)

[kwilliams6045]

This was written on another site by someone who lived in Jamaica for 9 years and was very familiar with the tourist industry there.

It is long, but I think she has more knowledge of jamaican than any of us, who just visit.

 

I lived in Jamaica for nine years and most of the people on this thread have no idea what life is really like there. Most of the tourist trade is controlled by the Jamaican "Big Money" people. The common people in Jamaica feel they don't get their fair share of the money. Consequently they resent and harass the tourist. I don't really know if the cruise line will pull out of Jamaica because they get paid off by the people at the ports. I ran a gift store at the Montego Bay Cruise Shipping Terminal and I had to pay off the cruise director when ever they recommended our store. Jamaica is an extremely unsafe place not only for robberies but for auto accidents. Jamaican people really do hate/resent the tourist, I can give many many examples of this statement ~ far too many to include in this post. Why do you think there is a permeate frown on the faces of the people in the service industry. But suffice to say I had seven friends killed in auto accidents while I was living there, all of my friends lived behind bars on windows and doors of their homes and there were many robberies of friends in the business district of Montego Bay. Question: why do you think most business people carry guns in Mobay? Yes, people will say crime is every where buy you all have no idea just how corrupt the government, and police are in Jamaica. Also, when ever possible "tourist crime" is covered up. I know of a couple of gay men that were murdered in their hotel room and it never hit the national news.

 

With out the cruise business the only form of tourism that Jamaica will have to rely on is the sex trade in the rent a Rasta business and the young girls that are willing to sell their bodies due to the extreme poverty. I loved island life and the beauty of Jamaica ~ I ended up moving to Hawaii and never regretted it. My suggestion is keep your family safe and your tourist $$$ in the US and go to Hawaii, unless you are looking for sex, reggae music and ganga it’s not worth it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While you're there check out the restaurants and other establishments other than the craft markets and taxi drivers, that is where you will find what they call in JA as the "kiss teeth" attitude. Slow and doing you a favor by serving you your meals. Butch Steward has many "trainers" to change the attitudes but when the rest of your life is spent in a marginal economic situation there is very little to be pleasent about. Yes, there will be pleasant (taxi man and craft market people) ~ with the exception of an occasional "you're mean and don't you like black people" when you don't buy something. The people will “skin teeth” (smile) with you but when your back is turned you are not aware of the sneers and jeers that will go on behind your back by the locals. As long as you pass out the bucks you will be just fine in most cases but don’t be naive and believe that these people “like” you because they don’t for the most part.

 

It’s not really their fault they are victims of a harsh economy and a philosophy that enables men to simply go around impregnating and not taking responsibility ~ consequently the family unit is broken down, much like it is in the more deprived communities of the US. The big difference there is there is no welfare ~ so one of the only things to do to survive is to leave your zinc roof house on “captured land” in Flankers and hustle on the streets and see what you can get from the foreigners. I would be interested to hear what you think when you come back from your trip...

 

Funny, some of the most friendly people you will meet will be the bartenders, never quite sure why ~ guess they do better in the tip department.

 

 

wvtraveller, sounds as if you agree with me in the first paragraph due to personal experience. So I'm not sure what you mean by "I also take exception" in your second paragraph. Sorry but there are "cultures of poverty" and there are universals traits found in all of them. Try goggling "Culture of Poverty" and see what you come up with. Check out the stats in the communities of poverty here and see how many single women are head of household as they are in JA that's what I was referring to. I was not comparing the "slums" as you put it with the communities in JA ~ we have a welfare system they don't... dude the family unit is broken down in these cultures, there are things one must do when faced with hunger/poverty.

[kwilliams6045]

Sargent,

 

We were white and hispanic. None of us were Jamaican.

We were not the same as them.

 

So by that statement "F___ing Foreigner" , that is not specifying a difference between them and us? Foreigner means what?

[bunting]

A hate crime to me would be related to race, religion, creed...

 

Were there people of different gender, race, and/or religion on the tour? Wasn't everyone robbed?

 

Hi Sargent found this one...........

 

http://www.hatecrimeri.org/?page_id=9

 

Indicators of Bias and Hate Crime:

 

• The offender and the victim are of different racial, religious, ethnic/national origin, sexual orientation, gender and/or (dis)ability.

  
  

• Bias-related statements, oral or written, or gestures, made by the offender.

  
  

 

And while the definition is intended for the US, believe that Kwilliams considers the statements as intended to insult and insert fear and to me, IMHO, this did have some hate crime implications, the statement he heard, anyhow for sure. Remember also the driver was Jamaican so we did have multi racial victims but it appears that the racial slurs were aimed at the ¨foreigners¨ and when you use the word foreigner to me you considered that your audience might not only not be Jamaican but from more than one race, or if not, the aggressor would mention only one country e.g.¨Brits¨ or ¨Americans¨ but definitions aside, I feel, IMHO, sure these kids felt (and feel) like the adults and saw it as a hate crime..................

[tech]

Lornadoons,

 

It is hard to stay away from a thread where so many nice people are being attacked. You are only being kind to come to their aid.

 

I suspect that the attackers on this thread are using the releasing agression method.

 

It is becoming quite common to hide behind a keyboard, a screen name and vent your hostile feelings on others. Doctors are recognizing this problem and books, articles are being written about it.

 

Many people doing this do not even care about the subject at hand , just their ability to release the demons that torment them.

 

They also LIKE to argue, belittle and bully...all from the safe, unknown distance of a keyboard. Of course in the end the vase that holds the acid is damaged , not the acid. Or what goes around comes around in more simple terms.

 

The fact that their IP address can be tracked in case of severe behavior never seems to enter their minds.

 

With some of the new laws being passed in America, many people will be well advised to counsel their online behavior. right or wrong the laws now allow for people to be tracked. Interesting new world, huh ?

 

But I digress. Hate Crime ? Gee, you think ?

 

People on tour and robbers different races, religions ...you think?

 

Maybe some people on the tour were black, white, asian, various religions... Were the robbers the same mix ?

 

Bet not ! When the robbers yelled about Foreigners don't you think they were also taking into account skin color, nationality ? Bet they were !

 

So what is a hate crime ? You "Hate " the differences of the person you are robbing, killing, etc.

 

In this case they Hated the foreigners.

 

Really, some of you defenders of crime ( not Jamaica for you have confused the issue in some way.) should truly get away from your keyboard. You have beaten this dead horse for so long that it is in danger of rising from the dead and biting you in the butt.

[Sargent_Schultz]

This was written on another site by someone who lived in Jamaica for 9 years and was very familiar with the tourist industry there.

It is long, but I think she has more knowledge of jamaican than any of us, who just visit..

 

Also, when ever possible "tourist crime" is covered up. I know of a couple of gay men that were murdered in their hotel room and it never hit the national news.

 

I have seen that post, along with yours, on at least a couple of boards.

 

Jamaica is often reported as being homophobic, an implication of Britain to some ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1383487,00.html ). I think that example is more a hate crime (sexual orientation) than against tourists in general.

[tech]

Tech,

 

I loved that...it really fits

 

 

My pleasure. Sometimes satire is the only way to make people see a problem in a truer light.

 

On the other hand, sometimes the people that need to see things in a truer light, are not able to understand satire.

 

Where is Monty Python when we need him ? :)

[lornadoons]

 

...Really, some of you defenders of crime ( not Jamaica for you have confused the issue in some way.) should truly get away from your keyboard. You have beaten this dead horse for so long that it is in danger of rising from the dead and biting you in the butt.

 

well said... and I am just not getting this argument about whether it was a hate crime or not...with definitions etc... who the heck cares!... it was a CRIME! and a violent one at that, which the outcome could have been much, much worse had Kenneth been "the MAN" as someone else posted here...taken a much more aggressive stance while his daughter had a gun to her head??? Are you kidding me? Anyway, who knows what a person would do in a situation like that? Luckily it seems as if they all did what they felt they should do at the time because no one was harmed physically as in SHOT OR STABBED while confronted with guns to their heads, and threatened with machettes.

I'm just not understanding some people on this thread and how they seem to overlook the reason for it, and prefer to argue their pointless points getting it further and further away from the main topic. Oh well, call me naive... just give these people a break... unless you have had a gun held to your head, or your childrens' heads.

you can all have jamaica... like i posted before... there are many, many, many other places I have visited (unlike anything i saw in Jamaica) that I would prefer to spend my money at, and many other places I have yet to explore. Glad I did get to explore Jamaica. Won't do it again...

 

I'm done... my 2 cents...

[Sargent_Schultz]

 

 

 

But I digress.

 

 

no kidding.

[El Chief]

lornadoons, Thank You!

 

El Chief

[standby 06.30]

If you had read the cruise contract, why would you not question such statements, if in fact, they were made?

 

And if you had purchased the excursion tickets prior to any such statements, the statements would not be relevant.

 

"(b) Carnival’s vessels visit numerous ports in a number of countries. Guests assume responsibility for their own safety and Carnival cannot guarantee Guest’s safety at any time. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers and Carnival strongly recommends Guests obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Carnival assumes no responsibility for gathering said information. The Guest acknowledges that the cruise may be booked in a location that is susceptible to severe weather systems, including but not limited to, hurricanes, tropical storms and depressions, and that Carnival reserves the right to alter the ship’s course, ports of call, itinerary, activity and shore excursions to avoid such weather systems and insure the comfort and safety of the Guest and crew.".

The reason I asked that question of him was because he is a T/A and I wanted a responce from him to see what duty of care he has for his customers, I then wished to ask him wether he our the company he works for profits from the add ons like "shore excursions" and if (thank you bunting for the link) he with the knowledge he has got from this board will change him in anyway, why dont you answer your own questions Sarge, by the way what are you a sargent of? also do you think that "carnival is NOT liable" regards

[standby 06.30]

Just to say that we had a great weekend in Spain, we stayed as we allways do in Tarragona, and used the train to go to Barcelona, on Saturday for shopping, Sunday was just a chillout day with lots of Tapas etc, we are looking forward to the end of the month when we stay with a Greek Master in Miami before a cruise, Regards

[lornadoons]

Just to say that we had a great weekend in Spain, we stayed as we allways do in Tarragona, and used the train to go to Barcelona, on Saturday for shopping, Sunday was just a chillout day with lots of Tapas etc, we are looking forward to the end of the month when we stay with a Greek Master in Miami before a cruise, Regards

 

I realize this is off topic but.... standby... I LOVED Barcelona! We actually did the Celebrity Mediterranean 12 day Cruise 3 years ago and we started off in Venice and ended in Barcelona. My husband's cousin and wife actually skipped Barcelona when we all docked as they were anxious to get home. I met quite a bit of people who just docked and immediately flew home. We stayed on and then flew to Madrid, stayed on there, then flew home. I am soooo glad we did... It was WONDERFUL! I wish we lived as close as you do! I would be there more often!

Here's something... for all of you cruisers out there... just a suggestion of course... save your money and don't go to Jamaica... plan a Mediterranean cruise... you won't be sorry!!!! :D

[tech]

no kidding.

 

 

You do not see yourself in the aggression comments ? Hmmmmm

[Hedocple]

 

Here's something... for all of you cruisers out there... just a suggestion of course... save your money and don't go to Jamaica... plan a Mediterranean cruise... you won't be sorry!!!! :D

 

Unless your were the poor American in the wheelchair killed aboard the Achille Lauro and pushed overboard a few years back :(

[tech]

The reason I asked that question of him was because he is a T/A and I wanted a responce from him to see what duty of care he has for his customers, I then wished to ask him wether he our the company he works for profits from the add ons like "shore excursions" and if (thank you bunting for the link) he with the knowledge he has got from this board will change him in anyway, why dont you answer your own questions Sarge, by the way what are you a sargent of? also do you think that "carnival is NOT liable" regards

 

Hogan's Heroes....

 

Sergeant Schultz " I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing ! "

[tech]

Unless your were the poor American in the wheelchair killed aboard the Achille Lauro and pushed overboard a few years back :(

 

 

Man, are you pushing it now ! Now the Med is out for traveling.

 

You are just losing it ! Better keep to Jamaica , the whole world is dangerous. :eek:

 

In fact I think Rome might also be bad for you, Et Tu Brute ! Someone was group stabbed there.