17 People robbed on Conquest Jamaica excursion

[Sargent_Schultz]

Probably several judges will decide since there will be appeals. There are lots of ambulance chasers and everybody thinks the cruise lines have deep pockets.

 

It is in the contract and it is in the law. Nobody was physically injured. If you think you can prove negligence, good luck. There had never been a similar incident before and there has not been one since, so there is no reasonable expectation that that Carnival is accountable.

 

Carnival did immediately suspend sales of that particular excursion. If they had continued selling, and another robbery occurred, then the second batch of robbees might have a case.

 

http://www.marad.dot.gov/Publications/complaw03/Passenger_Cruise%20Vessels.htm

 

(b)(1) Contract Limitations Allowed. Subsection (a) shall not prohibit provisions or limitations in contracts, agreements, or ticket conditions of carriage with passengers which relieve a crewmember, manager, agent, master, owner, or operator of a vessel from liability for infliction of emotional distress, mental suffering, or psychological injury so long as such provisions or limitations do not limit such liability if the emotional distress, mental suffering, or psychological injury was_

(A) the result of physical injury to the claimant caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator;

(B) the result of the claimant having been at actual risk of physical injury, and such risk was caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator; or

© intentionally inflicted by a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator.

(2) Nothing in this subsection is intended to limit the liability of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator of a vessel in a case involving sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.

[standby 06.30]

Bunting the interesting thing is that carnival should have public liability insurance, so although any action would be brought against Carnival, it would be there insurance company that would put up what ever defence they could, contracts are drawn up by lawyers to try to protect there clients, this to the layman look very solid, but if they rely on the contract they must keep to it, do you think that the ship when it returned on the next visit, mr price changed his sales pitch, and said "look we had a terrible incident last week and we advise you that if you take this tour you may suffer the same" and we can no longer guarantee your safety, the "price is right" would be out of a job, regards

[bunting]

Bunting the interesting thing is that carnival should have public liability insurance, so although any action would be brought against Carnival, it would be there insurance company that would put up what ever defence they could, contracts are drawn up by lawyers to try to protect there clients, this to the layman look very solid, but if they rely on the contract they must keep to it, do you think that the ship when it returned on the next visit, mr price changed his sales pitch, and said "look we had a terrible incident last week and we advise you that if you take this tour you may suffer the same" and we can no longer guarantee your safety, the "price is right" would be out of a job, regards

 

Thanks for that

[kwilliams6045]

As of now, the tour is listed on Carnival.com, but according to the shore excursion department, they are in process of removing the tour, but they have no explanation why. The shore excursion operator was not even aware of a robbery taking place there.

 

In 1998 there were 14 German tourist robbed in the same area. There are several robberies that have been reported in the same area.

 

Sargent, are you saying the only way they can be liable is if it happens at the exact same place or if not with in what distance does it need to occur? My second question, physical injury is the only thing that can be claimed?

 

I understand if a business has received a complaint about some defective equipment and failed to fix it, therfore someone is harmed, but I think Carnival was aware of the specific crimes that have been occuring in the tour area, even though one (that we know of) has not occured in that exact same area. Remember, they extensively research their tours, so they had to know.

 

Also, you sound like an attorney or liability adjuster, if you don't mind, which is it?

 

Thanks for your responses

[Hedocple]

Sargent,

 

Here is the information that I have. I do stand corrected on the unemployment rate for males. It is 76% that are in the labor force. This does change my thoughts on why their crime rate is so high. Now I am baffled.

 

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

 

 

No need to baffled. It’s already been discussed here. Boils down to turf wars over drugs. Same thing that fuels the majority of the crime and killings in U.S. inner cities. It’s a fact that Jamaica is a major distribution point for cocaine bound for the U.S. and Europe from S. America. Almost all homicides in Jamaica are directly related to this and are Jamaican on Jamaican.

 

You've posted quite a few links. I'm still waiting for you to post a link to the break down of crime against tourist.

Here are some links that might be of interest....

 

Great tips for visitors.

http://jamaica-guide.info/travel.basics/crime/

Current U.S. State Dept. guide.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1147.html

Tips we'll follow when we go back for our 11th visit.

[kwilliams6045]

Sargent,

 

Would this not fit this situation?

 

 

B) the result of the claimant having been at actual risk of physical injury, and such risk was caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator; or

 

I think we were at actual risk of physical inury and I feel that it was caused by the negligence or fault of the Crusie Director.

What do you think?

[standby 06.30]

Probably several judges will decide since there will be appeals. There are lots of ambulance chasers and everybody thinks the cruise lines have deep pockets.

 

It is in the contract and it is in the law. Nobody was physically injured. If you think you can prove negligence, good luck. There had never been a similar incident before and there has not been one since, so there is no reasonable expectation that that Carnival is accountable.

 

Carnival did immediately suspend sales of that particular excursion. If they had continued selling, and another robbery occurred, then the second batch of robbees might have a case.

 

http://www.marad.dot.gov/Publications/complaw03/Passenger_Cruise%20Vessels.htm

 

(b)(1) Contract Limitations Allowed. Subsection (a) shall not prohibit provisions or limitations in contracts, agreements, or ticket conditions of carriage with passengers which relieve a crewmember, manager, agent, master, owner, or operator of a vessel from liability for infliction of emotional distress, mental suffering, or psychological injury so long as such provisions or limitations do not limit such liability if the emotional distress, mental suffering, or psychological injury was_

(A) the result of physical injury to the claimant caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator;

(B) the result of the claimant having been at actual risk of physical injury, and such risk was caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator; or

© intentionally inflicted by a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator.

(2) Nothing in this subsection is intended to limit the liability of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator of a vessel in a case involving sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.

Oh schultzy dear boy from "carnival is NOT liable" to the reliance on an appeal or several, you concede so easily, by the way this would be a civil litigation so to my understanding of your law, the only automatic appeal is granted after sentense of death, appeals would need grounds, as you seem to be able to predict the future what would they be? also your pejorative about "ambulance chasers" may I join in and answer a poster who wanted to know your employment status, may I postulate, "Barrack Room Lawyer" regards

[kwilliams6045]

Hed,

 

I am aware of the information that you posted. I have seen the 1998-2000 stats so many times I could puke.

 

We will never see Jamaica the same way. You are all for it and I am cautious of it.

 

I agree to disagree with you and would like to leave it there.

 

I want people to visit any place they want, just be careful and learn as much about the place as possible before you go.

 

I will continue notifying any traveler that I can, until the cruise lines, and travel industry, in whole, do their part in providing all information needed to make an informed decision. I think eventual that will happen, atleast I hope. It is the right thing to do.

[Hedocple]

Hed,

 

I am aware of the information that you posted. I have seen the 1998-2000 stats so many times I could puke.

 

We will never see Jamaica the same way. You are all for it and I am cautious of it.

 

I agree to disagree with you and would like to leave it there.

 

I want people to visit any place they want, just be careful and learn as much about the place as possible before you go.

 

I will continue notifying any traveler that I can, until the cruise lines, and travel industry, in whole, do their part in providing all information needed to make an informed decision. I think eventual that will happen, atleast I hope. It is the right thing to do.

 

Well good luck to you and family in future travels where ever they may be. Sorry your only JA experience was a terrible one.

Respect

[Hedocple]

 

I will continue notifying any traveler that I can, until the cruise lines, and travel industry, in whole, do their part in providing all information needed to make an informed decision. I think eventual that will happen, atleast I hope. It is the right thing to do.

 

Now if we could only be so passionate about stopping crime here in the U.S. that would be awesome!

[Snoozeman]

Now if we could only be so passionate about stopping crime here in the U.S. that would be awesome!

Amen!

[kwilliams6045]

Hed,

 

I am that passionate about stopping crime in the US. I do my part everyday.

 

As a matter of fact, i'm about to put on that uniform again and see what I can do today.

 

I will get with yall after the weekend

[Hedocple]

Hed,

 

I am that passionate about stopping crime in the US. I do my part everyday.

 

As a matter of fact, i'm about to put on that uniform again and see what I can do today.

 

And I thank you for that. You definitely get my support there. Be safe!

[bunting]

No need to baffled. It’s already been discussed here. Boils down to turf wars over drugs. Same thing that fuels the majority of the crime and killings in U.S. inner cities. It’s a fact that Jamaica is a major distribution point for cocaine bound for the U.S. and Europe from S. America. Almost all homicides in Jamaica are directly related to this and are Jamaican on Jamaican.

 

You've posted quite a few links. I'm still waiting for you to post a link to the break down of crime against tourist.

 

Here are some links that might be of interest....

 

Great tips for visitors.

http://jamaica-guide.info/travel.basics/crime/

 

Current U.S. State Dept. guide.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1147.html

 

Tips we'll follow when we go back for our 11th visit.

 

Hi Hedocple, the only link I could find to stats that mentioned tourists was

http://www.jamaicapolice.org.jm/links.html but they only listed two months in 2006 and no incidents for tourists but I did come up with

 

November 1998, 18 German tourists were robbed on a Jamaican tour bus near Port Maria on the north coast

 

December 1998, 14 German tourists on a tour bus were held up and robbed on the way to the Mountain Valley attraction near Montego Bay

 

1998 there were two hundred incidents involving tourists – Statement by Police Commission Francis Forbes

 

2000 Negril disappearance of travel magazine editor Claudia Kirschhoch

2003 Negril Robbery at Falcon Cottages robbery of guests, gunmen shot and killed gardener. The gunmen went to the Cottages twice on the same night. Five attackers with guns and machetes. Police had responded to first intrusion, nothing found, and apparently left, robbers then returned, gardener was murdered during this second intrusion.

2004 Negril Gunmen entered Tigress Cottages held up and robbed about 15 guests, one resister hit on head, later treated in hospital

..................................

 

KWilliams have a safe weekend and watch your 6

[Hedocple]

Hi Hedocple, the only link I could find to stats that mentioned tourists was

http://www.jamaicapolice.org.jm/links.html but they only listed two months in 2006 and no incidents for tourists but I did come up with

 

November 1998, 18 German tourists were robbed on a Jamaican tour bus near Port Maria on the north coast

 

December 1998, 14 German tourists on a tour bus were held up and robbed on the way to the Mountain Valley attraction near Montego Bay

 

1998 there were two hundred incidents involving tourists – Statement by Police Commission Francis Forbes

 

2000 Negril disappearance of travel magazine editor Claudia Kirschhoch

 

2003 Negril Robbery at Falcon Cottages robbery of guests, gunmen shot and killed gardener. The gunmen went to the Cottages twice on the same night. Five attackers with guns and machetes. Police had responded to first intrusion, nothing found, and apparently left, robbers then returned, gardener was murdered during this second intrusion.

 

2004 Negril Gunmen entered Tigress Cottages held up and robbed about 15 guests, one resister hit on head, later treated in hospital

..................................

 

KWilliams have a safe weekend and watch your 6

 

Yeah...Not bad considering there have probably been over 16 million visitors to JA since 1998. Guess its not much solace though if you're the victim. Being that we've visited JA quite often since 1998 I was well aware of those since I read the Gleaner often. Now do a search on other Caribbean islands and Mexico and you will be shocked.

[bunting]

Yeah...Not bad considering there have probably been over 16 million visitors to JA since 1998. Guess its not much solace though if you're the victim. Being that we've visited JA quite often since 1998 I was well aware of those since I read the Gleaner often. Now do a search on other Caribbean islands and Mexico and you will be shocked.

 

As you say not much solace....I live in Mexico, have done for many years, cruised Jamaica every week (except when off contract) for 9 years (92-01) so I followed the Gleaner and the Star, while saw a lot of things first hand.................to honest here in Guadalajara, tourist crime incidents (especially violence) are few and far between (as reported in the local papers) (tends to be a lot of traffic police stopping people for traffic violations and fines(!!!!???)....but other cities in Mexico are not so lucky....have a good weekend.....

[standby 06.30]

Hed,

 

I am that passionate about stopping crime in the US. I do my part everyday.

 

As a matter of fact, i'm about to put on that uniform again and see what I can do today.

 

I will get with yall after the weekend

Mr Williams you be safe, we are off for a weekend in Barcelona, which is probably the safer option,my wife does not let me take my lap top, for some strange reason she does not like shareing me, Bunting, my wife also sailed the carrib for about 6yrs, then the med, till I met her, isnt social intercourse great, I may check in before we go, but if not I will see what pearls of wisdom have fallen from the lips of my posting friends on monday regards

[Sargent_Schultz]

As of now, the tour is listed on Carnival.com, but according to the shore excursion department, they are in process of removing the tour, but they have no explanation why. The shore excursion operator was not even aware of a robbery taking place there.

 

It is hearsay, but was posted on another cruise board. I assumed you were familiar with, since you also posted in that thread.

 

06/21/2007

From Travel Weekly

 

Carnival Cruise Lines suspended the sale of a shore excursion in Montego Bay, Jamaica, after guests from its ship, the Carnival Conquest, were robbed on a bus during an excursion.

 

The ship was in Montego Bay as part of a seven-day western Caribbean cruise that departed Galveston, Texas, on June 10 and returned June 17.

 

The robbery occurred on June 13, when two men boarded the bus, Carnival said, during the Lethe Village Tour, a nine-mile drive by bus to the village of Lethe in Hanover, where guests take a tractor-drawn jitney around the village, visit a banana plantation and make Pina Coladas right from a coconut.

 

According to news reports, 17 Carnival passengers were on the bus and the two men were armed. Nobody was injured.

 

All appropriate law enforcement authorities were notified, the line said, and many of the stolen items have been recovered and have been returned to the guests involved in the incident.

 

As part of its CareTeam program, Carnival said it assisted those affected guests onboard and dispatched a counselor to the Carnival Conquest to render further assistance to them and their families."

 

Sargent, are you saying the only way they can be liable is if it happens at the exact same place or if not with in what distance does it need to occur? My second question, physical injury is the only thing that can be claimed?

 

What I was attempting to communicate was that anyone can put anything in a contract as long as it is not illegal. Anything in a contract that is illegal would be disallowed.

 

I provided a link to what I believe is applicable, if you can prove. While not impossible, it will not be (currently) easy.

 

While not related to shore excursions, a case related to cruise contracts and cruise line liability has been appealed to the US Supreme Court. You might be interested in researching Carlisle v. Carnival Corporation. It has been appealed several times and now waits to see if the Supreme Court will accept the case or not. Currently Carnival is ahead. It has taken a little over 10 years to get this far.

 

Also, you sound like an attorney or liability adjuster, if you don't mind, which is it?

 

Of those two? Neither. If I needed the services of an expert on contracts, I would certainly look for an attorney with cruise line contract experience. They tend to be very, very, good.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Sargent,

 

Would this not fit this situation?

 

 

B) the result of the claimant having been at actual risk of physical injury, and such risk was caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner, or operator; or

 

I think we were at actual risk of physical inury and I feel that it was caused by the negligence or fault of the Crusie Director.

What do you think?

 

I think there is little doubt you were at risk of physical injury. If the cruise director was the one that pointed the gun, I would think it was a slam dunk.

[Sargent_Schultz]

....but other cities in Mexico are not so lucky....have a good weekend.....

 

My experience (driving, flying, and cruising) is that the majority of Mexico is safe. As you mention, there are exceptions. Nuevo Laredo was certainly one and I suspect still is. Why? Because of America's addiction to drugs.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuevo_Laredo#Drug-related_violence

Drug-related violence

 

As a border town, Nuevo Laredo is known for its turf war in which two drug cartels, the Sinaloa and Gulf Cartel, compete for control of the drug trade into United States.

The violence escalated in August 2003, when rival drug cartels battled at the important intersection of Paseo Colon and Reforma. Police officers who aided one of the cartels were also attacked simultaneously at different districts. A deployment of the Mexican army from the 1er Batallon Motorizado intervened at the battle. Grenades and bazookas were used during those attacks.

Cartels began using former members of Mexico's special forces, known as Zetas, to carry out their operations. Among those killed were twenty-one police officers. On the 16th of June 2005 the city's police chief, Alejandro Domínguez, was gunned down just seven hours after his inauguration. He was replaced by Omar Pimentel.[1] Under new leadership, the police with help from military forces was able to bring order and security to Nuevo Laredo.

On 20 February 2007, Horacio Garza Garza, a federal congressman for the PRI, was seriously wounded by gunmen, and his driver was killed.[2]. Violence apparently has reduced in the last months.

[standby 06.30]

Carlisle is very interesting, but in my opion not relevant, the cruise line employed a doctor, they took due care in selecting him, the cruise lines emploees did not state in the public forum, you have a choice if you are ill to use another doctor of ship, but we cannot guarantee your safety, if you use our doctor we gaurantee his ability to cure you. Prima facie, the officer of the cruise line, the cruise director, a person of knowledge experience, of that port and the industry, who must be aware of the possible problems in that area, used his knowledge to coerce passengers from non carnival agents to carnival agents, by claiming that if you use a carnival agent,( which they profit from) I as a company officer will guarantee your safety, what is a " slam dunk"? I am off to the airport, back on monday hope you miss me, regards

[bunting]

My experience (driving, flying, and cruising) is that the majority of Mexico is safe. As you mention, there are exceptions. Nuevo Laredo was certainly one and I suspect still is. Why? Because of America's addiction to drugs.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuevo_Laredo#Drug-related_violence

Drug-related violence

 

As a border town, Nuevo Laredo is known for its turf war in which two drug cartels, the Sinaloa and Gulf Cartel, compete for control of the drug trade into United States.

The violence escalated in August 2003, when rival drug cartels battled at the important intersection of Paseo Colon and Reforma. Police officers who aided one of the cartels were also attacked simultaneously at different districts. A deployment of the Mexican army from the 1er Batallon Motorizado intervened at the battle. Grenades and bazookas were used during those attacks.

Cartels began using former members of Mexico's special forces, known as Zetas, to carry out their operations. Among those killed were twenty-one police officers. On the 16th of June 2005 the city's police chief, Alejandro Domínguez, was gunned down just seven hours after his inauguration. He was replaced by Omar Pimentel.[1] Under new leadership, the police with help from military forces was able to bring order and security to Nuevo Laredo.

On 20 February 2007, Horacio Garza Garza, a federal congressman for the PRI, was seriously wounded by gunmen, and his driver was killed.[2]. Violence apparently has reduced in the last months.

 

Hi Sargent thanks for that and hope you have a good weekend too...like Standby I will definitely check in on Monday..................Standby hope you have a great time in Barcelona.........

[Kevin's girl]

This is a very scary thing as well as very sad.

To think of a cruise ship as a small city with all of the same risks and possible crimes as any small city is a true comparison. For all of you who have been able to see that all of our home towns have crime you are correct - they do. But any of us would expect our town to protect us and be sure that those of us living in or visiting the town would be safe. You would want them to check out suspicious people and know risks for your safety.

As citizens of our cruise ship we have a right to expect safety on the ship and in the excursions planned and offered by the cruise ship. They should have a responsibility to check out the tour companies they contract with and also keep a mindful eye on the safety of the area they are taking passengers into.

If you book a tour on your own - you are on your own. You need to be responsible for your own safety. But if you book with a cruise line they need to be sure you will be safe. They are the host of the port. The passenger can only be responsible for themselves and their own actions, if they sought trouble then they would get trouble, but these people were expecting to be safe by booking with the cruise line and the cruise line did have a responsibility to keep them safe. Just like your police, Mayor or local law makers have a responsibility to keep you safe at home.

[El Chief]

I have a correction to my post #698, which makes this Lethe Village Plantation heist of June 13, worse than I had thought. A Travel Agent in Austin Texas did sell us that cruise, but I have been informed by our daughter that this "shore excursion" was purchased directly from Carnival "on line"; precisely because, we thought, that we had been promised that it was safe for children. So, Carnival did have a direct involvement, let's say a financial one.

 

Now to, el señor Canino, I will accept you apology for that statement about this being an "off ship" crime, and Carnival having no involvement. But, we still have missing, to the four children victims that had guns shoved into their faces, and threatened to be killed, just because they were foreigners, any apology from you. Would you like to publicly apologize to my two granddaughters right here where you made that asinine statement?

 

El Chief

 

 

[jcanino]

I have a correction to my post #698, which makes this Lethe Village Plantation heist of June 13, worse than I had thought. A Travel Agent in Austin Texas did sell us that cruise, but I have been informed by our daughter that this "shore excursion" was purchased directly from Carnival "on line"; precisely because, we thought, that we had been promised that it was safe for children. So, Carnival did have a direct involvement, let's say a financial one.

 

Now to, el señor Canino, I will accept you apology for that statement about this being an "off ship" crime, and Carnival having no involvement. But, we still have missing, to the four children victims that had guns shoved into their faces, and threatened to be killed, just because they were foreigners, any apology from you. Would you like to publicly apologize to my two granddaughters right here where you made that asinine statement?

 

Well chief, since I had no involvement, I have nothing to apologize for. I have the right to comment on the way that I see things and it is all my opinion. Carnival acted as the agent for the tour operator just as your travel agent acted as the agent for Carnival Cruise Line. Is your travel agent in Austin responsible for what happened? Did you or Carnival Cruise Line have any indication from past experience that this excursion was not safe for anyone, let alone children?

 

I am making comments from the outside looking in. I realize that it is very hard to see the unfortunate incident from the inside the same way that I can see it from the outside. I can also make my comments based on my own experiences with multiple visits to Jamaica.