automatic tipping

[hammybee]

But, again, I would have no qualms about removing tips from the children's accounts if I had four of us shoved into one stateroom. Tipping is nice ... and I am sure those cabin stewards work very hard ... but auto-tips for four people in one cabin is a bit much, in my opinion ...

 

Blue skies ...--rita

I have first hand experience sailing with three in an inside cabin.

 

I have close second hand experience sailing, many times, with friends who had multiple quads.

 

Both of these experiences demonstrated to me that it is more than appropriate to charge incrementally based upon the number of passengers in a cabin.

[hammybee]

I just think it is a disgrace how these cruise lines (I realize HAL is certainly not the only one) have backed us passengers into a corner and gotten us to pay their employees' wages. It is us who feel bad and will not remove auto-tips because then who are we truly punishing ... the cruise line or the employee who has nothing to do with corporate policies.

 

So, I guess I will continue to keep my auto-tip in place ... even though I know it is going to some people who I don't feel should be entitled to tips to begin with. But, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

Blue skies ...--rita

 

Ya know Rita, we consumers of products tend to complain about the cost of everything. Consumers are wary of and often times reluctant to pay for what they cannot see.

 

It often makes me wonder how the same people would feel if their compensation/benefits were reduced because the general public does not see them or value their contribution to the overall end result.

 

We can debate till the cows come home, what is appropriate tip versus included in the base cost. It really does not matter.This is how it is done.

 

Cruising is discretionary. When and if the consumer cannot reconcile to tipping standards, they can choose to not cruise. Maybe the all inclusive is a better option or perhaps, a vacation at home is the best choice, for some.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Yes, there are always the "extras" when going on a cruise. Tips, drinks, shopping, excursions, drinks, shopping,....tsk tsk.

[DesertDiva]

Are your children passengers too? Did the room steward change the towels and make the beds for your children? Did the children receive service in the dining room?

 

we have three children and had to be split up between two rooms. while i understand the tipping charts do why is it that we have to tip for the children also? I would think that tipping applied only to the adults. i could handle a half price tip.

[jtl513]

Now this is where I have a problem ... these "miscellaneous people." Why on earth should it be my responsibility to pay them?

 

... even though I know it is going to some people who I don't feel should be entitled to tips to begin with. But, that doesn't mean I have to like it.

And look at the amounts these background people are getting. Someone please tell me if my estimates are out of whack here, but here's what I see: on a Vista ship there are about 1900 people paying $3/d, for $5700/d.

 

There are about 800 crew members. Lets say there are 100 room stewards and 50 dining room waiters and assistant waiters who are not part of the $3 pool (because they are tipped by the $7 part). There are, say, 100 people in the non-service crew aren't part of that pool - maintenance & operations and officers. That leaves 550 people sharing $5700, or $10.36 per person per day!!

 

Even if I've grossly overestimated the "deductions" and there are 700 people sharing the $3 pool, that's still $8.14 /p/d !

[DesertDiva]

"How it is done" doesn't always mean that it is right. I for one would rather see the "tip" absorbed into the cost of the cruise. When I'm dining at home my gratuity reflects the level of service I am given. Why should I feel "shamed" into leaving a gratuity in place if I am given poor service?

 

If HAL values their employees, they need to provide adequately for their salaries.

 

Leaving a gratuity is a personal decision. I can't think of a time that I've actually left a restaurant without honoring the server in some manner. I've always left the automatic gratuity in place on a cruise, and given extra. However, if for some reason I choose not to do so and wish to leave gratuities in a different manner I'm not going to let HAL make that decision for me. HAL can suggest a "guideline," but they cannot enforce a "standard."

 

We can debate till the cows come home, what is appropriate tip versus included in the base cost. It really does not matter.This is how it is done.

 

Cruising is discretionary. When and if the consumer cannot reconcile to tipping standards, they can choose to not cruise. Maybe the all inclusive is a better option or perhaps, a vacation at home is the best choice, for some.

[bUU]

Now this is where I have a problem ... these "miscellaneous people." Why on earth should it be my responsibility to pay them?

To be fair, you're going to pay them no matter what. The only issue is whether compensation for their services is included in the cruise fare or covered via a gratuity. We can have our preferences with regard to that, but the question really is whether we're going to allow our preferences with regard to this issue dictate whether we cruise or not (since all mainstream cruise lines do it the same way).

 

But, because HAL has decided they don't want to pay them a fair wage

Holland America didn't make that decision unilaterally -- it's common practice in the industry. Holland America would be punished by guests if they made counter-decisions that made Holland America look more expensive than it really is, because of how it chose to price things.

 

Don't say that the laundry person does my bed sheets, towels, etc., because my answer will be that my fare covers his services.

Evidently not.

 

I just think it is a disgrace how these cruise lines (I realize HAL is certainly not the only one) have backed us passengers into a corner and gotten us to pay their employees' wages.

It's just not the case -- you can readily choose not to cruise. You're absolutely not backed into a corner.

 

So, I guess I will continue to keep my auto-tip in place

Which is as clear a vote in favor of the current system as anything else you could possibly do.

[bUU]

I don't have children, however, I can say without a doubt that I would have a very big problem tipping $10 per day for children ... especially if I had two children in the stateroom. I'm sorry, but $40 a day in tips is a bit over the top in my humble estimation. I'm not rich ... I stay in modest accommodations when I travel ... and if I were gonna take an inside stateroom and cram it with four people, then obviously I am doing that because of financial considerations.

However, our personal financial situation doesn't govern how much people providing us service deserve. Quite the opposite: All that matters with regard to compensating others is the amount and quality of service the provide for us. We can't go into The Four Seasons and pay $15 for an entree just because we're not as affluent as the next patron, so similarly we should not pay less than what is appropriate for cabin service aboard a cruise ship because we aren't as affluent as the next patron.

 

When we find that things are "too expensive" for us, we choose a lower grade of service, and/or reduce our consumption (i.e., vacation less often) in order to be able to afford to pay what we should pay for the services we patronize.

 

I personally believe the tips should be per stateroom, not per person.

When I travel with the whole gang, that would be incredibly generous; when I travel alone, that would be unfair.

[The Tsar]

... However the problem has always been that there will be a certain amount of “Cheap SOB’s” that do not believe in leaving tips no matter how good the service was while on board. On a cruise a couple of years ago on another line I overheard a conversation among some passengers on deck that believed that the “high” amount that they paid for their cruise should be enough to adequately compensate the service personnel and that they do not leave any tips on cruises.... :D

 

Maybe it is because I worked in a low paying government job all my life, without ever receiving any tips or bonus for doing the job I was hired for, BUT no one deserves an automatic tip. I do not believe in tipping someone doing just their job, that is what salaries are for.

 

Now before someone claims that the staff is grossly underpaid - There is never a shortage of people seeking employment and where else can you retire after working only five (5) years. Over the years this is what I have been repeatedly told by HAL staff.

[bUU]

Ya know Rita, we consumers of products tend to complain about the cost of everything. Consumers are wary of and often times reluctant to pay for what they cannot see.

I think consumer complain about how much they have to pay even for things they can see. In the end, consumers emasculate themselves by refusing to employ the tool that provides them ultimate power, i.e., the ability to "do without". The way things worked when I was young, and especially when my parents were young, was that when what was offered "wasn't worth" what was charged, the proper response by the consumer was to decline the offer. We would "do without". This responsible action on the part of consumers kept prices in check. When you purchase something even though it isn't a good deal, you are actively voting in favor of the offering, despite being against it. It is exactly like going into the voting booth, wanting to vote for the Blue candidate, and pulling the Red lever instead. If consumers continually vote in favor of bad deals, then they're ratifying those deals as good, and that becomes the new benchmark for what is a good deal.

 

It often makes me wonder how the same people would feel if their compensation/benefits were reduced because the general public does not see them or value their contribution to the overall end result.

It is an interesting proposition, though I'm not sure I'd go down that road. To some extent, people who choose to take jobs where their compensation is dependent on the responsible and conscientious action of members of the general public have to take some responsibility for the problems associated with trusting those people to act responsibly. I don't think it is reasonable to expect folks who don't choose such an arrangement to act from a position of absolute empathy with those who do make such a choice.

 

Where this comes into play, for example, is when we draw "the line" -- for example, a restaurant server is responsible for providing great service regardless of how many tables they're servicing. If a server has "too many tables" and they allow that to degrade the service received by each patron, then they should reasonable expect each patron to reduce the gratuity by a certain amount to account for the degradation. Now, it wouldn't be convincing, I believe, to object to that on the grounds of having the patron put themselves in the server's position. The grounds need to be objective and predictable in advance: Good service = normal gratuity. Lesser service = lesser gratuity. And so forth. (Of course, a slightly lower gratuity from more patrons probably still the same or even more money that normal gratuities from a normal amount of patrons, so maybe even putting themselves in the server's position the patrons would still find the arrangement fair and equitable...)

 

We can debate till the cows come home, what is appropriate tip versus included in the base cost. It really does not matter.This is how it is done.

Absolutely.

 

Cruising is discretionary.

Three words that, if understood, internalized, and accepted would really help clear up a lot of the concerns folks raise in this forum.

[bUU]

"How it is done" doesn't always mean that it is right.

And because we don't like it doesn't always mean that it is wrong. The best evidence is that it is right is that we DO pay it, even though, as hammybee pointed out, "Cruising is discretionary."

 

I for one would rather see the "tip" absorbed into the cost of the cruise.

As strange as it may seem, this really would require government action. Some changes to "how it is done" can only be accomplished by everyone at once, or not at all. That's the case when customers punish the suppliers that adopt the "new way", because of how it looks on the "outside" (even though perhaps those customers would prefer that approach once they dug down deeper... to the "inside"). Clearly, in today's marketplace, increasing the advertised cruise fare, even with a banner "no gratuities accepted or permitted", will still result in consumers punishing cruise lines that do it -- if that wasn't the case, one of these very vigorous competitors would have tried it recently.

 

Why should I feel "shamed" into leaving a gratuity in place if I am given poor service?

My mother was very insistent that, "No one can make you feel what you feel -- you do that to yourself." Shame is therefore irrelevant. Rather what we're talking about here is a business transaction -- offer and acceptance (or declining) -- where the offer includes an obligation accepted by the passenger to appropriately compensate for service via the gratuity system the cruise line utilizes.

 

If HAL values their employees, they need to provide adequately for their salaries.

They do, via the gratuity system we're discussing in this thread.

 

Leaving a gratuity is a personal decision.

Not when it is automatic and/or mandatory.

 

HAL can suggest a "guideline," but they cannot enforce a "standard."

Though they actually can. It is perfectly legal and indeed becoming the norm for mainstream cruise lines to do so.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

 

Just follow the "Golden Rule", do what you need to do and try to enjoy your cruise. It really all sorts itself out in the long run.

 

Tipping for me? A non-issue actually (current policy and extra for those worthy at the end of the voyage).

 

Amen,

 

Bon Voyage and Good Health!

Bob:)

[KAYEF]

Have to type in what just popped into my head.:)

It's always AMAZING to me when we are in Vegas (or other gambling venues) to see people gathering up a few pieces of change for a "tip" at a buffet when those same people have been gambling on machines with big money...................

We auto tip; we tip extra and write Thank You notes for their superiors to read.

All of us have to live with ourselves...............in a world that's truly not "fair"..................we appreciate all that is done for us on a cruise..........

and only realize how much it was once we get home and the only choice for dinner is ONE............something from the freezer or a can.........one item, one course and even then I have to do dishes!;)

[hammybee]

 

 

The mass marketed cruise lines are trending towards a non discretionary hotel service charge.

[hammybee]

However, our personal financial situation doesn't govern how much people providing us service deserve. Quite the opposite: All that matters with regard to compensating others is the amount and quality of service the provide for us. We can't go into The Four Seasons and pay $15 for an entree just because we're not as affluent as the next patron, so similarly we should not pay less than what is appropriate for cabin service aboard a cruise ship because we aren't as affluent as the next patron.

 

When we find that things are "too expensive" for us, we choose a lower grade of service, and/or reduce our consumption (i.e., vacation less often) in order to be able to afford to pay what we should pay for the services we patronize.

 

I really like the way you put this. :)

[hammybee]

In the end, consumers emasculate themselves by refusing to employ the tool that provides them ultimate power, i.e., the ability to "do without".

 

 

The inability to "do without" = Entitlement

[RevNeal]

Ever since the introduction of the auto-gratuity on shipboard accounts, I have left the gratuity on my account and have tipped extra to by cabin steward, my waiters, and -- if he merited it -- the Area Supervisor (and they have frequently, but not always, merited it). It's gotten to the point that I consider the auto-gratuity as a hotel-service charge ... for that's what it is. If someone earns more via great/exceptional service, I tip more in person. If the service is just satisfactory, my additional tip will be rather small.

[kura]

Maybe it is because I worked in a low paying government job all my life, without ever receiving any tips or bonus for doing the job I was hired for, BUT no one deserves an automatic tip. I do not believe in tipping someone doing just their job, that is what salaries are for.

 

Now before someone claims that the staff is grossly underpaid - There is never a shortage of people seeking employment and where else can you retire after working only five (5) years. Over the years this is what I have been repeatedly told by HAL staff.

 

I believe an Indonesian could retire after working for only 5 years on a cruise ship. The cost of living is very low in Indonesia…..you can buy a complete meal in a good clean restaurant (not one of the flash hotel chains for overseas tourists) for less than $1 and that includes drinks! We know, we have done it! Working in Indonesia, they would earn considerably less…possibly only about $80 US a month! This is why they are keen to work on a cruise ship as theycould retire quite comfortably after a short time. We have talked to Indonesians.. ... in Indonesia...a lot of men working in the tourist industry there paln to do this "get rich quick scheme"

Stipulation of the North Sumatra Provincial Minimum Wage in 2007 (No. 561/3244.K/2006).

Business News, 2007-01-26, No. 7466/Year - LI, pp. 8A - 9A, ISSN: 1410-2579Sets the minimum wage in the province to Rp 761,000 per month.

THIS EQUATES TO US$84 MONTH

I don’t know what HAL would pay them…considerably more than what they would earn home I would think. PLUS the automatic tip! If a cabin steward gets $3.50 a day per passenger out of the tip pool, on our forthcoming month on board he will get in tips alone from our cabin $196. Multiply this by say 10 cabins, that is $1960 PLUS wages PLUS further tips that obviously many people on this board give as extras! (maybe up to conservatively $3000) in total. In Indonesia, he would have to work for 3 and a half years to earn what he could earn in one month on a cruise ship!!! Indonesia like many Asian countries including Australia and New Zealand do not tip. In fact in some Asian countries tipping is offensive to the receiver. Like I said on this board a few days ago, on a thread that has been removed for some reason, we will be leaving the automatic tip in place but do not feel we have to do more other than a gift to our cabin steward.

Tipping is a US custom.

[hammybee]

Kura,

 

I do not think you or I have an adequate understanding of the politics within the hospitality business, let alone onboard a cruise line. Here are some perceptions you may not have considered:

 

The crew on a cruise ship is a team. They make it or break it together.

 

Tips, regardless of how acquired, are shared with the people who support those on the front line. I suspect that the auto tip allows a cruise line to maintain a more equitable system of reward than may have existed in times gone bye.

 

There are union dues to be paid and sometimes homage to sponsors.

 

Uniforms and flights tend to come out of earnings on many cruise lines.

 

Travelers from countries that do not have a tip custom often neglect to tip when travelling to places, where it is the custom. It seems to me, to be selective disrespect of local customs with financial consequences on those whose incomes, are dependent upon tips.

 

It's heartwarming to hear that you overcome your personal objections and leave tips intact and respect the established system of compensation.

[DesertDiva]

I obviously "wrote what I wrote" because I feel strongly about the subject and it's my "opinion." You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

 

I'm not so sure that consumers would "punish cruise lines" that paid salaries to employees instead of having them rely on gratuities. You can't make a statement to the contrary if it's never been tried.

 

Shame is definitely not "irrelevant." Whether we like to admit it or not, we as humans make "value judgments" all the time. Unless you are a "fully actualized human", you still can feel negative emotions.

 

Wikipedia states:

 

A

tip

(or

gratuity

) is a payment to certain service sector workers beyond the advertised price. The amount of a tip is typically computed as a percent of the transaction minus taxes. These payments and their size are a matter of social custom. Tipping varies among cultures and by service industry. Though by definition

a tip is never legally required

, and its amount is at the discretion of the person being served, in some circumstances failing to give an adequate tip when one is expected would be considered very miserly, a violation of etiquette, or unethical. In some other cultures or situations, giving a tip is not expected and offering one would be considered condescending or demeaning. In some circumstances (such as tipping government workers), tipping is illegal and considered a bribe.

 

The word originates from the 16th century verb

tip

, which meant "

to give unexpectedly

", and was derived from the German

tippen

, meaning "to tap."

Therefore, purely by "definition alone" there is no such thing as an "automatic" or "mandatory" tip. As for cruise lines imposing their "tipping" policy, it obviously in not entirely legal. If it were, why would each passenger have the option of removing it from their account.

 

What I leave as a gratuity (and the manner in which I leave it) is my personal business and no one else's.

 

We obviously don't agree on this - but that's OK...

 

Clearly, in today's marketplace, increasing the advertised cruise fare, even with a banner "no gratuities accepted or permitted", will still result in consumers punishing cruise lines that do it -- if that wasn't the case, one of these very vigorous competitors would have tried it recently.

 

My mother was very insistent that, "No one can make you feel what you feel -- you do that to yourself." Shame is therefore irrelevant. Rather what we're talking about here is a business transaction -- offer and acceptance (or declining) -- where the offer includes an obligation accepted by the passenger to appropriately compensate for service via the gratuity system the cruise line utilizes.

 

They do, via the gratuity system we're discussing in this thread.

 

Not when it is automatic and/or mandatory.

 

Though they actually can. It is perfectly legal and indeed becoming the norm for mainstream cruise lines to do so.

[DesertDiva]

I think that's great and probably the correct way to think about it (as a "hotel service charge).

 

Ever since the introduction of the auto-gratuity on shipboard accounts, I have left the gratuity on my account and have tipped extra to by cabin steward, my waiters, and -- if he merited it -- the Area Supervisor (and they have frequently, but not always, merited it). It's gotten to the point that I consider the auto-gratuity as a hotel-service charge ... for that's what it is. If someone earns more via great/exceptional service, I tip more in person. If the service is just satisfactory, my additional tip will be rather small.

[hammybee]

A Hotel Service charge is not a tip. It a fee for service.

 

A tip is gratuity, given in thanks.

 

I do believe the cruise lines are trending towards the former to protect their employees.

[Chivalrygirl]

A Hotel Service charge is not a tip. It a fee for service.

 

A tip is gratuity, given in thanks.

 

I do believe the cruise lines are trending towards the former to protect their employees.

 

Delete

[richnorto]

Not to offend anyone, but I think the automatic tips were added to make up for the fact that many more Europeans are cruising and they are not as accustomed to tipping in the American fashion. They tip nominally if at all as their wait staff/salon people etc make working wages.

[kryos]

A Hotel Service charge is not a tip. It a fee for service.

 

A tip is gratuity, given in thanks.

 

I do believe the cruise lines are trending towards the former to protect their employees.

And a true service charge is fixed. The passenger cannot remove it. It's billed as part of the cost of the cruise.

 

And, I agree. The cruise lines will probably eventually switch the auto-tip over to a "service charge" type item so as to force passengers to pay it ... $10 per day, per person ... which kind of sucks if you have four people (two children) in your cabin. As I said in another post, $40 per day in tips is just way over the top ... at least in my estimation. Just my humble opinion.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita