Question about Around-the-Horn Cruise

[Merion_Mom]

Carol, I wonder if they looked sick or were dealing with whatever a lot of people on your sailing were dealing with?

 

I mean if someone walks off a cruise ship and looks happy and carefree that is one reaction, walk off looking like death warmed over that might well be another reaction from an official.

 

Just a thought.

 

jc

From what I heard, it was a combination of which official was on duty, and (bad) timing on the passengers' part.

 

I would have been perfectly happy to show my YF immunization papers....but mine were back on the ship, too. It just would have meant a brief delay in disembarking. :)

[xpcdoojk]

Such is the nature of dealings with government officials! :D I had to get my drivers license renewed recently, and this month I have to take the MINI for a new license plate. Not going to be a happy moment.:(

 

jc

[petesweet]

Back to the visas, I just wonder--since RCCL KNEW there was a problem and even had a bus available for the unlucky souls who could not continue--why they did not send an e-mail or a separate letter or something EMPHASIZING that a visa was required. Not telling them to check with the consulate, but telling them the visa was required. Seems so simple.:confused:

[xpcdoojk]

Getting a Brazilian Visa is anything but simple. You have to mail your passport and the visa form in a 90 day window before your cruise. You have to send a prepaid envelope. You can only send it to the embassey that serves your district of the USA (there are about 8 or 9 cities in the USA that have embassies. Most people are incapable of dealing with even this level of simple complexity on their own and use a passport service. This is not inexpensive on top of the fact that you have to spend $100 on the visa to begin with. Plus registered mail prepaid postage both ways. Many people are very uncomfortable with mailing off your US passport to a foreign embassey.

 

Which is not to say that RCI couldn't have more strongly encouraged their customers, but really it is the passengers responsibility. I truly believe that with a very small amount of attention to detail every passenger would have easily discovered the requirement. I was shocked at how many people just assumed that the rules didn't apply to them or that they could easily resolve it at some future point when their credentials were questioned. IMHO, they figured that if they did a few simple things like stay on the ship in a couple of ports, one of which is world class, that they could save a $100 plus a person. It really sounded good in their minds while they planned the trip. Alas, the real world is not always as forgiving as an excuse seeking mind.:D Again, just my opinion.

 

 

jc

[truffles2]

Our situation was a bit different, in that we flew to Rio to board the ship. When we checked in the airline agent told us that they always notify passengers that they need a visa when flying to Brazil. Our flight was arranged by RCI so I would assume that when they made the arrangements, they were informed. We had a call about a week before we left from RCI informing us that we needed the visa. Of course, that would have been too late. Thank goodness, we already had it! :rolleyes:

[cruisenfever]

Back to the visas, I just wonder--since RCCL KNEW there was a problem and even had a bus available for the unlucky souls who could not continue--why they did not send an e-mail or a separate letter or something EMPHASIZING that a visa was required. Not telling them to check with the consulate, but telling them the visa was required. Seems so simple.:confused:

Because it really isn't RCI's responsibility to inform pax what documentation is needed..............especially since requirements can change on a daily basis.

 

The reciprocity fee when entering Chile used to be $100pp. That changed effective January 1, 2008 just before we were going to leave.

 

People have to take some responsibility............they can't always been spoon fed!

 

I had said when we were planning our cruise around SA that RCI should have an international department that does nothing but keep abreast of what the requirements are for each country. Then I remembered that they can't even keep cruise credits right...............so I nixed that idea.

[owl61]

Back to the visas, I just wonder--since RCCL KNEW there was a problem and even had a bus available for the unlucky souls who could not continue--why they did not send an e-mail or a separate letter or something EMPHASIZING that a visa was required. Not telling them to check with the consulate, but telling them the visa was required. Seems so simple.:confused:

Yes, it seems so simple. If all the cruise line did was to tell US citizens to ascertain by their own devices whether a visa for Brasil was required for a Brasil bound vessel then I concur in your empathy for the plight of any RCCL passenger denied boarding for failure to posess a visa. I share your bewilderment at RCCL´s failure to affirmatively advise US citizens they would need a Brasilian visa to board the Brasilian bound ship (assuming that is in deed what happened - I have no direct knowledge).

 

I am sure that the cruise contract contains some provision exculpating RCCL from any liability for failing to affirmatively advise that a Brasilian visa would be necessary. I am also sure that many think that it is all well and good that the cruise line have no obligation to its passengers other than to warn them they may be denied boarding if there is a failure to posess the correct documentation, whatever it might be. People need to do for themselves. Okay, but the demographcs still are such that many elderly folks cruise and they are not always as astute as they should be. It is forseeable that some might get it wrong if left on their own.

I do not agree the cruise line should have no obligation in these circumstances. I believe the cruise line should be obligated to do a better job of advising what documents are necessary. I tend to believe that, notwithstanding the exculpatory language in the cruise contract, a court somewhere would find it very curious that RCCL failed to advise when it knew, or should have known, that the custom officials would deny boarding to such unfortunates whether or not one intended to disembark in Brasil.

It is not placing an undue burden on a cruise line to require them to provide routine information concerning documents/visas. After all, how difficult and expensive would it be for the CLIA or other industry association to maintain a small office dedicated to this kind of service. It could pass the info on to the cruise line, who, in turn, could affirmatively advise the passengers in writing, a routine process, perhaps included with the other boarding docs. It just seems like the right thing to do especially as this does not seem like an isolated incident.

[glgolfer]

Owl, we had folks on our roll call that said thye would just stay on the ship even after they were old a visa was mandatory. It took Patti relating the facts about folks left behind in Santiago to convince them they couldn't get on the ship without the visa.

 

Caol, I didn't know some people were stropped in Costa Rica if they didn't have their yellow card.

[Papa T]

I write this as a loyal RCCL pax with 37 RCCL cruises. In the document book for the Mariner repositioning there should have a red or yellow card warning people that they needed a visa. This is such a simple thing to do and would have avoided many headaches. I was on the third leg of this cruise that went from Peru to Costa Rica and never could get a definitive answer to the yellow fevor shot question - this after conversations with the CDC, the Costa Rican embassy, and three RCCL supervisors. I chose not to get the shot. Our traveling companions spent $150 each for the shot and wasted their money. THERE IS NO REASON WHY RCCL CAN'T PROVIDE CRUICAL INFORMATION TO PASSENGERS. When I took a Princess cruise to Austrailia, in addition to specific information in the docs - I received a phone call from Princess making sure my visa was in order.

[petesweet]

Getting a Brazilian Visa is anything but simple. You have to mail your passport and the visa form in a 90 day window before your cruise. You have to send a prepaid envelope. You can only send it to the embassey that serves your district of the USA (there are about 8 or 9 cities in the USA that have embassies. Most people are incapable of dealing with even this level of simple complexity on their own and use a passport service. This is not inexpensive on top of the fact that you have to spend $100 on the visa to begin with. Plus registered mail prepaid postage both ways. Many people are very uncomfortable with mailing off your US passport to a foreign embassey.

 

Oh, I know it is not a simple procedure to get the visa. Believe me, I looked into it. It was one of the reasons we did not go, since we were too close to sail time to be comfortable attempting it. I mean simple for RCCL to STRONGLY EMPHASIZE it.

[petesweet]

Yes, it seems so simple. If all the cruise line did was to tell US citizens to ascertain by their own devices whether a visa for Brasil was required for a Brasil bound vessel then I concur in your empathy for the plight of any RCCL passenger denied boarding for failure to posess a visa. I share your bewilderment at RCCL´s failure to affirmatively advise US citizens they would need a Brasilian visa to board the Brasilian bound ship (assuming that is in deed what happened - I have no direct knowledge).

 

I am sure that the cruise contract contains some provision exculpating RCCL from any liability for failing to affirmatively advise that a Brasilian visa would be necessary. I am also sure that many think that it is all well and good that the cruise line have no obligation to its passengers other than to warn them they may be denied boarding if there is a failure to posess the correct documentation, whatever it might be. People need to do for themselves. Okay, but the demographcs still are such that many elderly folks cruise and they are not always as astute as they should be. It is forseeable that some might get it wrong if left on their own.

I do not agree the cruise line should have no obligation in these circumstances. I believe the cruise line should be obligated to do a better job of advising what documents are necessary. I tend to believe that, notwithstanding the exculpatory language in the cruise contract, a court somewhere would find it very curious that RCCL failed to advise when it knew, or should have known, that the custom officials would deny boarding to such unfortunates whether or not one intended to disembark in Brasil.

It is not placing an undue burden on a cruise line to require them to provide routine information concerning documents/visas. After all, how difficult and expensive would it be for the CLIA or other industry association to maintain a small office dedicated to this kind of service. It could pass the info on to the cruise line, who, in turn, could affirmatively advise the passengers in writing, a routine process, perhaps included with the other boarding docs. It just seems like the right thing to do especially as this does not seem like an isolated incident.

 

See, that's what causes my bewilderment. The one who posted just before you said he/she received a phone call from RCCL A WEEK PRIOR TO THE CRUISE saying a visa was necessary. By then, of course, it was too late, and some folks foolishly apparently ignored the warning (if they even received it). But I understand this same thing happened before to RCCL. If they can call a week before, surely they can put forth that effort two months before.

 

When I traveled to China and Russia aside from a cruise, it was always emphasized that a visa is necessary. When we traveled to Russia on a cruise ship, we were told we needed a visa if we left the ship. These things were clearly and emphatically spelled out at the very outset of our planning - not hidden in fine print to be found by digging.

 

You are so right about the passenger demographic. Whether it is the passengers' responsibility or not, a problem occurred the year before and RCCL apparently knew it was going to happen again because they had at the port provisions for such an occurrence. My question is why they didn't exert that effort earlier in the game. Surely they made a lot of enemies, which they don't need at this time.

[glgolfer]

I write this as a loyal RCCL pax with 37 RCCL cruises. In the document book for the Mariner repositioning there should have a red or yellow card warning people that they needed a visa. This is such a simple thing to do and would have avoided many headaches. I was on the third leg of this cruise that went from Peru to Costa Rica and never could get a definitive answer to the yellow fevor shot question - this after conversations with the CDC, the Costa Rican embassy, and three RCCL supervisors. I chose not to get the shot. Our traveling companions spent $150 each for the shot and wasted their money. THERE IS NO REASON WHY RCCL CAN'T PROVIDE CRUICAL INFORMATION TO PASSENGERS. When I took a Princess cruise to Austrailia, in addition to specific information in the docs - I received a phone call from Princess making sure my visa was in order.

 

 

I talked to the tourist bureau in San Jose, the Miami Consulate and read th CDC info re the Yellow Fever shot. The folks I talked to fom Cosat Rica all dais the shot was mandatory and the CDC said not necessary.

We got the shot and don't feel we wasted our money as we don't know where we'll go in the next ten years. Places where YF is a factor is a possibility.

 

I agree RCI dropped the ball by not telling everyone a visa was required when they booked the cruise, or at least at final payment time. They should have also made sure all of their reps knew about the visa requirement.

[rubrrick]

I write this as a loyal RCCL pax with 37 RCCL cruises. In the document book for the Mariner repositioning there should have a red or yellow card warning people that they needed a visa. This is such a simple thing to do and would have avoided many headaches. I was on the third leg of this cruise that went from Peru to Costa Rica and never could get a definitive answer to the yellow fevor shot question - this after conversations with the CDC, the Costa Rican embassy, and three RCCL supervisors. I chose not to get the shot. Our traveling companions spent $150 each for the shot and wasted their money. THERE IS NO REASON WHY RCCL CAN'T PROVIDE CRUICAL INFORMATION TO PASSENGERS. When I took a Princess cruise to Austrailia, in addition to specific information in the docs - I received a phone call from Princess making sure my visa was in order.

 

Unlike the Brazilian visa..........which is a requirement created by the country....the Yellow Fever is a desease. Some of us want the protection, knowing that if a mosquito bits us.......if the mosquito is infected, the chance of us getting Yellow Fever is far greater than someone telling whether we need the precaution or not.

 

So while you consider this a waste of money......some of us do not. And my wife was on the entire trip, and I, along with you, joined the ship in Valparaiso. We would rather be safe.......than sorry.

 

Rick

[Papa T]

Unlike the Brazilian visa..........which is a requirement created by the country....the Yellow Fever is a desease. Some of us want the protection, knowing that if a mosquito bits us.......if the mosquito is infected, the chance of us getting Yellow Fever is far greater than someone telling whether we need the precaution or not.

 

So while you consider this a waste of money......some of us do not. And my wife was on the entire trip, and I, along with you, joined the ship in Valparaiso. We would rather be safe.......than sorry.

 

Rick

 

There are two issues with the yellow fever shot - one is physical and the other political. Each person needs to determine their comfort level for traveling to SA with or without the shot. The political issue is separate - is or is not the shot required for entry to a country. Travel to SA, Asia, and certain other parts of the world require special attention on the part of the traveler and clearly each needs to carefully make health related decisions. Providing assistance with and accurate information about visas and other required documentation, however, is in the best interest of the cruise companies. As a stockholder I have to question the competence of those at RCCL who took a hand off approach to this issue and refused to provide specific information on the yellow fever shot and who did so little in advance to inform pax of the Brazil visa requirement.

[rubrrick]

There are two issues with the yellow fever shot - one is physical and the other political. Each person needs to determine their comfort level for traveling to SA with or without the shot. The political issue is separate - is or is not the shot required for entry to a country. Travel to SA, Asia, and certain other parts of the world require special attention on the part of the traveler and clearly each needs to carefully make health related decisions. Providing assistance with and accurate information about visas and other required documentation, however, is in the best interest of the cruise companies. As a stockholder I have to question the competence of those at RCCL who took a hand off approach to this issue and refused to provide specific information on the yellow fever shot and who did so little in advance to inform pax of the Brazil visa requirement.

 

As far as the section that I have put in bold print.......I'm in total agreement with you. I, too, have felt that RCCL was very lax in not telling my wife or her parents that they needed the Brazilian visa. That is just plain not good business.

 

Having traveled enough to look up requirements is how we discovered that a visa was needed. We were not informed by Royal Caribbean of the requirement until it would have been too late.

 

Rick

[truffles2]

Unlike the Brazilian visa..........which is a requirement created by the country....the Yellow Fever is a desease. Some of us want the protection, knowing that if a mosquito bits us.......if the mosquito is infected, the chance of us getting Yellow Fever is far greater than someone telling whether we need the precaution or not.

 

So while you consider this a waste of money......some of us do not. And my wife was on the entire trip, and I, along with you, joined the ship in Valparaiso. We would rather be safe.......than sorry.

 

Rick

 

I totally agree with you. We took every shot we could as a precaution. It would be just my luck to be bitten by a pesky mosquito who was "out of bounds" and had just bitten a juicy yellow fever patient. While our shots were covered by insurance, it would have been worth the cost to me for peace of mind. On the other hand, I got a pneumonia shot last October for the very first time and we had not been home from the horn cruise a week before we both caught that "cruise crud"--and pneumonia for me!

[Merion_Mom]

I was going to quote and respond to a bunch of specific posts, but I have just decided to post a general response.

 

1. The Brazilian Visa:

 

It is not just complicated to get, who needs one is not so straightforward.

 

The requirement is in retaliation (justified, in my opinion) for visa/fee requirements that the United States imposes on Brazilian citizens who wish to visit the U.S.

 

Only countries that impose visa/fee requirements on Brazilian citizens are on Brazil's *you-know-what* list. Citizens of those countries need visas to enter Brazil.

 

Every state in the U.S. is "assigned" to a specific U.S. Brazilian Embassy/Consulate. You must apply to the *correct* embassy/consulate or your application will be rejected.

 

Each embassy/consulate has its own forms! You have to submit the right form.

 

Each embassy/consulate has its own procedures. You may not violate those procedures.

 

Each embassy/consulate has the *right* to deny a visa, or issue a 3 year visa or a 5 year visa or a 10 year visa! And you have no right of appeal.

 

And there are more restrictions and hoops.

 

The fact of the matter is, the passenger is buying a cruise to foreign countries. Royal Caribbean makes it very clear that the passenger is responsible for finding out what documents are needed. I cannot imagine booking a cruise to multiple foreign destinations without feeling the need to research those destinations, including any required documentation.

 

I believe (and I could be wrong) that the bus was not sitting at Port Canaveral from the very beginning. I believe that it was summoned later, when it became clear that there was a busload of people in need.

 

Every cruiser needs either a passport or an official birth certificate and photo government-issued I.D. to sail in the Caribbean.

 

Does everyone here have the same sympathy for someone who shows up in Miami for a Liberty of the Seas cruise without those documents?

 

2. Yellow Fever Shot.

 

The requirements are even more complicated. The CDC website is not the authority about the requirements of other countries. Only those other countries can tell you if they require you to have YF or any other immunization.

 

And those requirements are not straightforward, either.

 

They are not: "You must have this shot."

 

It depends on where you were and when you were there, before arriving in their country.

 

So you go to the source, and you make your decision/choices based on what those host countries state.

 

So, in conclusion:

 

You could board the ship without YF immunization, but you ran the risk of the authorities telling you that you were unwelcome in Costa Rica. In Costa Rica, you would have had the option of simply staying on the ship if this happened. It would not have affected your being able to be on the cruise.

 

You could NOT board the ship in Port Canaveral or in Rio de Janeiro (the embarkation ports of the first two legs of this historic cruise) without a Brazilian Visa IF IF IF you are carrying a passport from a country which requires Brazilian citizens to get visas and thus Brazil requires THOSE citizens to get Brazilian visas.

 

 

I felt limited sympathy for people who showed up in Port Canaveral without Brazilian visas if they were supposed to have them.

 

Personal responsibility: It's not just for breakfast anymore. ;)*

 

 

 

*reference to General Mills' Wheaties advertisements.

[xpcdoojk]

Carol, as always, you have said exactly what I have tried to say and seemingly have failed to say for the past couple of days. Thank you for your precise and dead on assessment.

 

jc<----- admires Carol greatly even though she is an evil RC!:D

[owl61]

1.Every cruiser needs either a passport or an official birth certificate and photo government-issued I.D. to sail in the Caribbean.

Does everyone here have the same sympathy for someone who shows up in Miami for a Liberty of the Seas cruise without those documents?

 

2. I felt limited sympathy for people who showed up in Port Canaveral without Brazilian visas if they were supposed to have them.

Personal responsibility: It's not just for breakfast anymore. ;)*

.

 

1. Withourt regard to issues of culpability, kind and normally sympathetic people will feel sympathy. Don´t you? Especially if the cruise line simply told passengers to go find out for themselves what documents they need to board. What a crappy policy for the company to maintain! Talk about a lack of personal responsibility - here´s a prime example of a lack of corporate responsibility by the cruise line.

 

2. Limited sympathy?! Hmmm. The transposed breakfast jingle and "wink " avatar strike me as decidedly unsympathetic (and borderline meanspirited in these circumstances).

 

No one is disputing the value of personal responsiblity, however you miss the point. What is the point? It is forseeable that certain people who because of age, lack of grey matter, inability to comprehend for whatever reason, inexperience, simple oversight that we all occasionally are guilty of once in a while, etc etc will likely not satisfy the doc requirement unless they are given better, specific advice. It would not be an undue burden on the cruise line to provide better advice. It is the right thing to do if it can avoid a bus load of passengers or even a couple from being left at the pier every now and then.

[xpcdoojk]

How many ships does RCI have? During any given week how many people are sailing with RCI? 30,000 to 50,000? So, they need to hold the hands of each of those people? I think I have the picture....

 

I feel very sympathetic to those that got left behind. I think it is sad that they just assumed that they didn't have to do the things the ones who made the sailing did.

 

jc

[Papa T]

How many ships does RCI have? During any given week how many people are sailing with RCI? 30,000 to 50,000? So, they need to hold the hands of each of those people? I think I have the picture....

 

I feel very sympathetic to those that got left behind. I think it is sad that they just assumed that they didn't have to do the things the ones who made the sailing did.

 

jc

 

That's only deals with part of the problem. I am a frequent traveler WHO DOES THE RESEARCH. The answer that RCCL was giving to the yellow fever shot question for Costa Rica was to "CALL YOUR DOCTOR." Having gotten conflicting information from the CDC (one answer on the website and another from a CDC rep) and from the Costa Rica embassy a specific answer from RCCL as to what to expect at the port was not too much to ask - instead I was given the phone number for their port agent in Costa Rica and told to call. RCCL should have been able to give a definitive answer as to whether the shot would be required.

[xpcdoojk]

But RCI can't give you a definitive answer on the yellow fever shot requirement because there is no definitive answer. HAL told me on my SA cruise that it was a requirement. It wasn't. In this case because you went to Costa Rica technically it is required, but if it isn't enforced then you feel silly giving yourself a two day fever and spending a $150.

 

jc

[owl61]

How many ships does RCI have? During any given week how many people are sailing with RCI? 30,000 to 50,000? So, they need to hold the hands of each of those people? I think I have the picture....

jc

So you dispute the premise that it would not be a burden for the cruise line to give better routine document advice and for that reason alone you believe they should not have to do so. Okay. There has to be a balancing of interests. In this particular case , how hard would it have been for RCCL to have given written advice that US citizens require a Brasilian visa to board the Brasil-bound ship?

Until it can be demonstated otherwise I just think it would not be too difficult to employ a computer program that runs the citizenship submitted by the passenger (or residence) through the itinerary and spits out visa, yellow fever , etc requirements. This info can be provided routinely at the time docs are sent. There can be suitable disclaimers to avoid liability. I don´t think the cruise line´s cost for its general liabilty insurance policy would be significantly affected. Do you think otherwise?

[petesweet]

Well, I have not seen the instructions RCCL gave to those on this particular cruise or how much emphasis was given to the matter of the visa, so my posts have been mostly questions and not based on knowledge. I just know that twice I have heard of this specific problem, and I was curious how it was "resolved."

 

I have learned a lesson from this. DH and I are world travelers, but each time we have needed a visa, that fact has been clearly called to our attention without our having to search for the information. Now I know that I had better search, and I thank everyone for that information.:D

[glgolfer]

I'll try to answer the yellow fever shot question.

 

I called both the tourist bureau in Sna Joswe and the Miami Consulate.

The gentleman at the toruist bureau said it was mandatory. I asked about a waiver because of age, health, etc. He said it might be possible, to ask the Miami Consulate.

Lady at the Miami Consulate said mandatory, no exceptions.

Other person on roll call called different Consulate and was told a waiver was OK.

As Carol said, some folks were sent back to the ship to get their card showing the YF shot and some weren't.

When the Costa Rican government gives different info and even does different things at the port, how can you expect RCI to give a definitive answer?