No B2B Through Vancouver?

I have now been told through 3 TAs and one Princess rep that you cannot do a B2B through Vancouver. We wanted to sail the Island from LAX to Vancouver, then on to Whittier for a 14 day cruise.

This apparently violates the Jones Act, although I thought Vancouver was the foreign port required.

Does this mean you simply can't do B2B Alaska cruises or just through Vancouver?

Any body have any info on this subject?

Thanks.

The Passenger Vessel Services Act specifies that ships have to stop at a "distant" foreign port, not just a foreign port before they can legally transport people between two US ports. Vancouver does not qualify, and neither do most the Caribbean ports, incidentally. The only way to do your cruise legally would be to add a third leg back to Vancouver.

You could disembark your first ship in Vancouver, then get on another and go to Whittier the next day and stay within the law - if that's a workable option for you.

One can do B2B if doing Vancouver to Whittier and then Whittier to Vancouver.

A friend ran into something similiar last year and they were able to get around it by getting off one Princess ship in Vancouver (originally sailing from LA I believe) and then getting on another Princess ship that same day (switching ships bypassed the Jones/Passenger Services Act). Not sure if the dates will work for you but something to look at.

I bypassed it last year by sailing on a Princess ship from Seattle to Vancouver, then getting off (Sapphire Princess) and boarding the Diamond Princess and sailing to LA.

One can do B2B if doing Vancouver to Whittier and then Whittier to Vancouver.

 

A friend ran into something similiar last year and they were able to get around it by getting off one Princess ship in Vancouver (originally sailing from LA I believe) and then getting on another Princess ship that same day (switching ships bypassed the Jones/Passenger Services Act). Not sure if the dates will work for you but something to look at.

Coral: If I understand this right on the B2B for example, could I take the Coral one-way from Vancouver to Whittier, stay on the ship and turn around go back from Whittier to Vancouver? I thought we could or am I missing something. Would love to know.

Marilyn

Coral: If I understand this right on the B2B for example, could I take the Coral one-way from Vancouver to Whittier, stay on the ship and turn around go back from Whittier to Vancouver? I thought we could or am I missing something. Would love to know.

 

Marilyn

Yes you can. I did it last year on the Dawn Princess (same route as Coral Princess). There were about 20 of us on the ship last year that did that.

Coral, thanks I thought we could but after awhile the senior moment kicks in and I get confused.;)

Marilyn

I was told that I could switch ships, but the Island Pacific Coastal, a very low price point 7-day cruise, arrives in Vancouver 2 days before the next ship (Sun). We really want to do Alaska on the Coral Class and the Coral doesn't show up in Vancouver until the next week.

So, we have to wait until the 2006 Ak schedule is out and try the Vancouver to Whittier B2B as suggested. I'd also like to see what the offerings are for sailing out of Seattle and San Fran.

That means we miss the Pacific Coastal, but oh well, that's life.

Thanks for all your info - apparently the key is the word "distant". Still sounds a little funky because apparently Ensenada is distant for San Diego, but Vancouver is not distant for Whittier. Or maybe its the distance from the border to the port?

That must be why the Seattle ships use Victoria instead of Vancouver.

We really have to do something about the Jones Act. Its getting a bit on the ridiculous side. I'm sure the Jones Act was enacted to protect US seamen jobs and never envisioned the secondary cruise industry that pops up in every port a cruise ship, no matter what flag, docks. Witness the industries in Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway and Sitka and then look at the revenue generated in Vancouver/Victoria that could be generated in Seattle or Portland if Vancouver/Victoria was not a "required" stop.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now...

 

Thanks for all your info - apparently the key is the word "distant". Still sounds a little funky because apparently Ensenada is distant for San Diego, but Vancouver is not distant for Whittier. Or maybe its the distance from the border to the port?

.

Several years ago I read a very good explanation (very good in that I understood it at the time after reading the article) and the term "distant" had nothing to do with how far away the port was from the US.

I agree - it is a stupid law/act.

I am not sure if this falls under the same act, but my husband the pilot tells me there is a similar law for foreign flagged airlines. They cannot fly to two US cities in a row and pick up passengers without making a stop at a foreign city in between.

I do not know what the Jones act is "protecting" either, but am guessing that it has something to do with the cost of being registered in the US vs. Bermuda. Isn't that why all these US corporations use foreign flagged ships, to save money? Somebody out there must surely know the details.

I travelled from FL to SF last year.....stayed on the same ship up to Vancouver via Victoria?

I travelled from FL to SF last year.....stayed on the same ship up to Vancouver via Victoria?

Panama Canal crossings have a scheduled stop at at least one port that qualifies as "distant". I think that's why Caracas is still listed since anything on the South American continent would qualify. Since you didn't disembark in SF, there would have been no problem regardless. The law only applies to ships carrying cargo (Jones Act) or passengers (PSA) between two US ports.

Repealing the PSA's provisions would create more jobs by allowing ships to cruise between US ports. I have a very long dissertation (doctoral thesis, actually) someone sent me that explains the history and politics involved.

Panama Canal crossings have a scheduled stop at at least one port that qualifies as "distant". I think that's why Caracas is still listed since anything on the South American continent would qualify. Since you didn't disembark in SF, there would have been no problem regardless. The law only applies to ships carrying cargo (Jones Act) or passengers (PSA) between two US ports.

 

Repealing the PSA's provisions would create more jobs by allowing ships to cruise between US ports. I have a very long dissertation (doctoral thesis, actually) someone sent me that explains the history and politics involved.

Next April When I go from Sydney to SF....If Diamond goes to Vancouver I can stay on the same ship?

I travelled from FL to SF last year.....stayed on the same ship up to Vancouver via Victoria?

If you disembarked in Vancouver then you weren't transported between 2 US ports. :D

By the way, I don't believe Ensenada qualifies as a distant port either. A distant foreign port is generally defined as any non-US port except those in Canada, Mexico, Bermuda and most of the Caribbean (Aruba and a couple of others do count as distant ports.) Ensenada is frequently used as either a starting or ending point for one way Hawaiian cruises, because then you aren't transporting between 2 US ports. It's also used as a "service" stop on roundtrip Hawaii cruises, where only a stop in any foreign port is required.

Repealing the PSA's provisions would create more jobs by allowing ships to cruise between US ports. I have a very long dissertation (doctoral thesis, actually) someone sent me that explains the history and politics involved.

That's the truth! There could be cruises such as: San Francisco to Hawaii (right now it's too hard to get to any foreign port without adding several extra days,) coastals such as Boston to Miami or San Diego to Seattle, other lines besides NCL could do 7 day's around Hawaii, etc. :D

I believe the Jones Act was to "punish" or at least inconvenience foreign flagged vessels from taking business away from US Flagged vessels. Foreign flagging cuts direct labor costs dramatically on a ship - look at what's happening on NCLs Pride of Aloha and the controversy over on-board tipping. Its a very simple calculation, foreign flagging reduces cost over US flagging. Its a pure business decision and even repealing the Jones act will not change that aspect of it.

Now taking that as a given, the Jones Act does impact job growth in US destination ports. That's why you don't see west coast and east coast 7 day itineraries -which I believe would sell like hotcakes. If Costa Maya can put in a 3-ship cruise pier, so could Portland, Oregon. Monterey-Santa Cruz-Moss Landing, CA could all be tender destinations. Could you imagine wine country cruise tours? Look at all the deepwater ports on the East Coast that would be great destinations from Boston historical tours to fishing on the Potomac river. Having to go to Ensenada or the Bahamas just to meet the Jones Act puts a damper on these types of port visits.

Face it, US citizens probably make up 70-80% of all the Caribbean, AK and HI cruises. I'll bet a lot of those people would love 7 day coastals on the east or west coast that concentrated on those out of the way places. Especially considering that all flights would be lower 48 and probably dirt cheap to boot.

Ok, back off the soapbox again...

Next April When I go from Sydney to SF....If Diamond goes to Vancouver I can stay on the same ship?

Yes, the law only applies when the beginning and ending ports are in the US.

I believe the Jones Act was to "punish" or at least inconvenience foreign flagged vessels from taking business away from US Flagged vessels. Foreign flagging cuts direct labor costs dramatically on a ship - look at what's happening on NCLs Pride of Aloha and the controversy over on-board tipping. Its a very simple calculation, foreign flagging reduces cost over US flagging. Its a pure business decision and even repealing the Jones act will not change that aspect of it.

...

Except that the Jones Act was written in 1898, and the Passenger Vessel Act was written in 1886 - long before US labor laws created wage and benefit differentials. The real cost of US flagging comes with having to meet US Maritime Union regs.

Except that the Jones Act was written in 1898, and the Passenger Vessel Act was written in 1886 - long before US labor laws created wage and benefit differentials. The real cost of US flagging comes with having to meet US Maritime Union regs.

The act was probably a "protectionist" provision to protect the US Maritime industry, which was quite large at the time and has since declined substantially, not withstanding the Jones Act.

Anyway you look at it, its out of date and giving away business to foreign ports.

Yes, the law only applies when the beginning and ending ports are in the US.

Actually Princess has'nt got any coastal cruises mentioned for Diamond yet in 2006.....all the other ships are mentioned ,but the Diamond........I am beginning to wonder if they will be sending her South to Mexico........

I was told that I could switch ships, but the Island Pacific Coastal, a very low price point 7-day cruise, arrives in Vancouver 2 days before the next ship (Sun). We really want to do Alaska on the Coral Class and the Coral doesn't show up in Vancouver until the next week.

ccrain,

I think you are looking at the wrong cruise. The Sun Princess leaves Los Angeles on May 3 and arrives in Vancouver on May 6. The Island Princess leaves Los Angeles on May 4 and arrives in Vancouver on May 7. You could take the Sun Princess to Vancouver, arriving on May 6, stay over a night, then board the Island Princess on May 7 for Alaska. I think you were looking at the 3 day cruise on the Sun Princess leaving Vancouver on May 6 and arriving back in Vancouver on May 9. If it is not too late to book these cruises, you should be able to do both your Coastal and Alaska cruises this year.

Jim

ccrain,

 

I think you are looking at the wrong cruise. The Sun Princess leaves Los Angeles on May 3 and arrives in Vancouver on May 6. The Island Princess leaves Los Angeles on May 4 and arrives in Vancouver on May 7. You could take the Sun Princess to Vancouver, arriving on May 6, stay over a night, then board the Island Princess on May 7 for Alaska. I think you were looking at the 3 day cruise on the Sun Princess leaving Vancouver on May 6 and arriving back in Vancouver on May 9. If it is not too late to book these cruises, you should be able to do both your Coastal and Alaska cruises this year.

 

Jim

I'm looking at the May 2006 itineraries.

I seem to recall that when the Passenger Vessel Act was last discussed in congress the cruise lines did not actively lobby for changes...Of course they would like to sail between U.S. ports but they are afraid the price would be they would be subject to U.S. labor laws...Apparently this is the last thing they want.

HELP!!!

Please explain this antiquated and stupid piece of legislation to me?

If it's a ship registratiopn thing, I think there are only about 2 or 3 registered in the US...if you're lucky.

As a Canadian citizen, I'm flying to FLL fm YVR, getting on the Coral on 3 May 06 and heading all the way round to Vancouver thru the Panama. Nice cruise.

If we have this thing called free trade and everyone still eats good old Alberta beef why such the fuss with this stupid piece of legislation?

Hopefully someone can explain it..if the Caribbean's not a distant port from Galveston, MIA, FLL or TPA, what is...Aruba?

Ciao for now!!!

The Passenger Services Act is really quite simple. First, keep in mind that a "cruise" for purposes of the PSA is from where you embark to where you disembark. How that aligns with how the cruise line sells the cruises is irrelevant. Second, it applies only when you embark in a U.S. port and disembark in a (same or different) U.S. port. If you embark or disembark in a foreign port (and this shouldn't need to be said but I will anyway, Vancouver is a foreign port), the PSA does not apply.

That said, there are two basic cases - disemabrk in the same port of embarkation or disembark in a different port than the port of embarkation.

If you disembark in the same port, the only requirement is that the cruise visit at least one foreign port or that it visit no ports at all (a cruise to nowhere).

If you disemabrk in a different port, then the cruise must visit a defined "distant foreign port". Vancouver and Ensenada are not "distant foreign ports". Aruba is which is what makes the Ft. Lauderdale to California cruises legal.

Now for the OP's case, (s)he wants to embark in Los Angeles (IIRC) and disembark in Whittier. The only foreign port to be visited is Vacouver which is not "distant" so not legal. OTOH, you could do B2B's from Whittier to Vancouver and back and be legal since you'd be returning to the same port.