Rumor re Queen Victoria, Pac & Tahitian Princess

World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that there is a rumor that Queen Victoria WILL NOT be completed for Cunard, and that Tahtian Princess and Pacific Princess MAY be transferred to Cunard for "exotic itineraries".

All part of the continued merger of the two lines' operations departments.

World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that there is a rumor that Queen Victoria WILL NOT be completed for Cunard, and that Tahtian Princess and Pacific Princess MAY be transferred to Cunard for "exotic itineraries".

Michael,

Is any of this new versus this post (by you) on May 11?

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=176341&highlight=Tahitian+Princess

Or are we becoming environmentally friendly & recycling rumours?;)

Peter

Pretty much the same rumor - but with a few more details, not all of which I reported this time (not sure if I might be flirting with trouble with copyrighted material). Rumor this time came from an e-mail received today,some two & 1/2 months after previous rumor.

Additionally, WOCLS this time is refuting the rumor that QE2 will be retired, stating that consideration is being given to remodelling/refurbishing to bring into compliance with the new SOLAS treaty.

All rumors, true, but WOCLS has a pretty good track record on this side of the pond for accuracy.

Maybe WOCLS gets is "rumors" from this message board? ;) These are things we have been speculating about for some time now.

Ernie

eroller

I think the reverse rings truer. I for one always try to identify the source of the rumor, before I pass it on to the board in general.

WOCLS, Maritime Matters, Cruise News Daily among others all have been pretty good sources of information - both true and rumored.

eroller

 

I think the reverse rings truer. I for one always try to identify the source of the rumor, before I pass it on to the board in general.

 

WOCLS, Maritime Matters, Cruise News Daily among others all have been pretty good sources of information - both true and rumored.

I don't subscribe to any of the above, yet I've speculated all along about QV and TAHITIAN/PACIFIC PRINCESS. Basically, much of it is putting two and two together, knowing a bit about the cruise industry, and a little logic and common sense thrown in for good measure.

FYI ... WOCLS, Maritime Matters, and CND have no more clue than I do about what direction Cunard Line will take next. It's all speculation, even on their part.

Ernie

Yes - but two and two doesn't always add up to four.

Cunard did not do particularly well in its last foray into the smaller ship market, and Cunard Countess and Cunard Princess quickly left the fold.

I for one find the speculation and rumor interesting, even if its track record is not that good.

At one point it appeared that Princess would end up in the Royal Cruise Lines family, but there were those who swore Norwegian Cruise Lines would get them, and as it turned out, Carnival got it.

fold.

 

I for one find the speculation and rumor interesting, even if its track record is not that good.

 

I agree. It's fun to speculate and try to figure out what turns the cruise industry will take next. Like you say, sometimes two and two add up to four, and other times they don't ... which is what makes it all so interesting.

Ernie

 

Cunard did not do particularly well in its last foray into the smaller ship market, and Cunard Countess and Cunard Princess quickly left the fold.

 

.

Michael,

Short memory today? ;)

What about SAGAFJORD & VISTAFJORD (CARONIA)?

I think that Cunard would do extremely well with the two Former R ships.

Stephen

much of it is... logic and common sense.....

Ernie,

logic & common sense - from cruise lines ?????????? Well, anything for a change!

Peter

PS

Agree the two mini-Princesses would make great Cunard cruisers....Caronia sadly missed....and a much better fit for the equipment with Cunard than Princess.....

Well, I won't wade into the "do they know more than us" discussion, but this is a rather pleasant set of rumors.

QM2 plus revitalized QE2 plus TAHITIAN/PACIFIC would make a very nice little fleet for Cunard, I think.

And when it does come time to replace QE2 (keeping with this particular rumor, this means 10-15 years down the line), perhaps it will be far enough down the road for Carnival's newly announced "no common platform" doctrine to be in full effect, and so perhaps we could see another purpose-built Cunarder, truly a smaller consort to QM2. Very nice.

Let's just hope that if they take the R ships off Princess' hands, they don't call them QUEEN something or other! I like CARMANIA and FRANCONIA, personally.

Carnival's "no common platform" doctrine, as you put it, is interesting.

Vista hulls are under 4 HAL ships, P&O's Arcadia (which had been Queen Victoria for awhile), and the ship currently under construction as Queen Victoria, which may or may not be allocated to some other Carnival decision.

Often what is said or printed is totally out of whack with reality.

I didn't keep it, but wish I had - Princess' press release re Sapphire & Diamond sailing from the shipyard in Italy, when in fact they were constructed by MHI in Nagasaki. Their own people did not know where the ships were built, nor which ocean they had to cross to reach the West Coast of the US.

Well, I won't wade into the "do they know more than us" discussion, but this is a rather pleasant set of rumors.

 

QM2 plus revitalized QE2 plus TAHITIAN/PACIFIC would make a very nice little fleet for Cunard, I think..

Oh go on Doug you know you want to. .... However, the two Princesses doing 'exotic' destinations still leaves QE2 in the UK market place - where she is apparently 'packing them in' at the moment!!! But refitted or not, vastly increased and improved competition in this market will not see QE2 doing so well by 2010. She belongs in a niche market, a luxury, exotic destination niche market.

And when it does come time to replace QE2 (keeping with this particular rumor, this means 10-15 years down the line), perhaps it will be far enough down the road for Carnival's newly announced "no common platform" doctrine to be in full effect, and so perhaps we could see another purpose-built Cunarder, truly a smaller consort to QM2. Very nice..

Do you really think QE2 will still be a marketable product when she is 50+ years old (if she lasts that long) .... other than as an old curiosity??? Every other Carnival owned line has or is in the process of shedding its old tonnage in favour of new - why should Cunard be an exception? Its obvious to me that they will only keep QE2 going as long as she makes a good return - they have to start spending TOO much money on her and she's a gonna. Something else to be borne in mind is that QE2 must take away some of QM2's target market - and with the most expensive passenger ship ever built needing to pay back some of her construction costs sooner rather than later, does that bode well for QE2????

Let's just hope that if they take the R ships off Princess' hands, they don't call them QUEEN something or other! I like CARMANIA and FRANCONIA, personally.

Amen to that .... perhaps if they hadn't saddled themselves with the name QV and all it implies then that ship would be a near reality rather than an ongoing rumour.

Ken

Carnival's "no common platform" doctrine, as you put it, is interesting.

I am not referring to ships currently on order, but rather to what was said about last week by Howard Frank when asked by Seatrade to comment on upcoming ship designs.

Mr. Frank stated that common platforms would not feature in Carnival's next generation of ship designs.

But refitted or not, vastly increased and improved competition in this market will not see QE2 doing so well by 2010. She belongs in a niche market, a luxury, exotic destination niche market.

She's rather big for exotic destinations, no?

I wouldn't be so sure that a revitalized QE2 (and this is assuming that she would get a very major refit) would not do well in the UK market. She has an incredible amount of brand equity, for one thing.

why should Cunard be an exception?

Well, because their market is different!

With Carnival, Princess, or other mass-market brands, there is almost a universal preference among passengers for the newest ships they can get. Specific ships have virtually no brand equity on their own; in essence they're just "the newest Carnival ship" or "the newest Princess ship" and by the time they reach middle age they've sunk into anonymity.

QE2 is very different. For one thing, she has a huge, very loyal following. But perhaps even more importantly, QE2 has her name and image as an incomparable weapon against competition. She has an image that none of her competitors can ever dream of acheiving.

I also think that the UK market is significantly different from the North American market in that I don't know that Brits necessarily have a preference for the latest and greatest. There is a reason that ships like QE2, CANBERRA, or even newer vessels like ORIANA and AURORA have gotten such staunch followings in the UK market.

In fact, QE2 is not even particularly elderly by UK standards. Right now, the only major UK-market brand that even has new ships (aside from Cunard with the dual-market QM2) is P&O, and ARCADIA is apparently not being at all well received. Non-Carnival UK operators seem to have plenty of confidence in elderly tonnage... SAGA ROSE and BLACK PRINCE are both older than QE2 and will probably be around for another five years, and I would not be surprised in the least to see SAGA RUBY, BLACK WATCH, and BOUDICCA around in 2020, happily and profitably serving UK passengers who aren't in the least bit troubled about sailing in a 40-something-year-old ship.

So why should QE2 be different? To be sure, she would probably not be competitive 15 years down the road in her present condition, but if she makes enough money for Carnival, I would not be entirely surprised to see them splash out the money necessary to keep her around for years to come. I just don't see them as being eager to get rid of a ship that, it is widely accepted, is a very profitable venture.

QE2 must take away some of QM2's target market

I think there is more than enough room for both, particularly considering that their itineraries don't overlap all that much these days.

.....She's rather big for exotic destinations, no?

 

I wouldn't be so sure that a revitalized QE2 (and this is assuming that she would get a very major refit) would not do well in the UK market. She has an incredible amount of brand equity, for one thing. .

She isn't too big for world cruising and it doesn't get much more exotic than that. With a reduced number of pax (which I think we are agreed is a high priority for any refit) she would carry the combined equivalent pax of both 'R' class ships which are reportedly destined for exotic cruising. The UK market is growing rapidly and with more and more US based cruise lines sending their top rated ships to UK and Europe, the market's expectations will be raised and in a few years an old QE2 won't cut it anymore, brand equity or not.

.....Well, because their market is different!

 

With Carnival, Princess, or other mass-market brands, there is almost a universal preference among passengers for the newest ships they can get. Specific ships have virtually no brand equity on their own; in essence they're just "the newest Carnival ship" or "the newest Princess ship" and by the time they reach middle age they've sunk into anonymity.

 

QE2 is very different. For one thing, she has a huge, very loyal following. But perhaps even more importantly, QE2 has her name and image as an incomparable weapon against competition. She has an image that none of her competitors can ever dream of acheiving....

You try telling that to some members of the other CC cruise line boards - there seems to be very strong ship loyalty across the industry. Are you trying to say that with the largest, longest, most expensive liner ever built Cunard aren't after a share of the mass market too - and why then did they sell off Caronia? QE2's image - who knows what that is other than instantly recognisable, but lately for every person I've heard raving about her I've heard another bemoaning her shortcomings.

.....I also think that the UK market is significantly different from the North American market in that I don't know that Brits necessarily have a preference for the latest and greatest. There is a reason that ships like QE2, CANBERRA, or even newer vessels like ORIANA and AURORA have gotten such staunch followings in the UK market.....

Not correct. Of course Brits appreciate the latest and greatest - we don't all live in country houses, play cricket and sip Pimms in the shade of an old oak tree you know! The reason why QE2 and Canberra had such staunch followers is that there was no competition around at the time. Oriana and Aurora have built up a huge following since Canberra and are marketed as modern superliners - in fact P&O bases its marketing on having the youngest fleet in the UK!

.....In fact, QE2 is not even particularly elderly by UK standards. Right now, the only major UK-market brand that even has new ships (aside from Cunard with the dual-market QM2) is P&O, and ARCADIA is apparently not being at all well received. Non-Carnival UK operators seem to have plenty of confidence in elderly tonnage... SAGA ROSE and BLACK PRINCE are both older than QE2 and will probably be around for another five years, and I would not be surprised in the least to see SAGA RUBY, BLACK WATCH, and BOUDICCA around in 2020, happily and profitably serving UK passengers who aren't in the least bit troubled about sailing in a 40-something-year-old ship......

Again not correct. Arcadia has been extremely well received - I had difficulty booking a December 2005 cruise in March, so she is selling well! Her launch press coverage was extensive and more favourable than that of the QM2. There is a niche filled by the Fred Olsen and Saga ships and that is for smaller ships making very long cruises for mainly retired people who have the time and money. As there are very few small modern ships outside the luxury Silversea and Raddison lines, they have to resort to older ships of the desired size. Note that Swan Hellenic has successfully thrown off the older small ship in favour of the 'R' class Minerva II - a sign of the times?

.....So why should QE2 be different? To be sure, she would probably not be competitive 15 years down the road in her present condition, but if she makes enough money for Carnival, I would not be entirely surprised to see them splash out the money necessary to keep her around for years to come. I just don't see them as being eager to get rid of a ship that, it is widely accepted, is a very profitable venture.......

QE2 is different - too big to fit into the small class of ship as used by Fred Olsen and Saga, too old and fatigued to do transatlantics, too lacking in space and facilities to match the comforts offered by more modern ships. She is an enigma. I agree that Carnival will probably keep her around while she is profitable but how much money will they be prepared to invest in her to get her up to scratch and how sad will it be if they don't?

.....I think there is more than enough room for both, particularly considering that their itineraries don't overlap all that much these days.

There are still many Cunard diehards out there who aren't willing to give QM2 a try while QE2 is around.

As always a pleasure to discuss with you

Ken

 

There are still many Cunard diehards out there who aren't willing to give QM2 a try while QE2 is around

 

Ken

Ken, "can't afford to" is the sad fate for some of us poor, destitute (and misguided) QE2 fans !!!!

However, a solution occurs to me: I'd be delighted to discover the glories of QM2 by going along as your butler/valet/luggage carrier when you make your crossing in September...at your expense, of course !!!

I'll be waiting to receive my ticket in the mail !!!

Tom:)

in a few years an old QE2 won't cut it anymore, brand equity or not.

...

 

There are still many Cunard diehards out there who aren't willing to give QM2 a try while QE2 is around.

Your last quoted sentence defeats the first one. Their are many people who just like the QE2. Some of them never tried the QM2, other sailed the QM2 and still prefer the QE2 or see advantages in both of them.

Even people, who never cruised, might prefer the QE2 over newer ships. Just today I showed people, who had sailed only new ships before, photos of the QE2, and the said, that she is just what they were looking for and what they want to try.

Now, Ken, you do not like the QE2, others do. Hopefully both will have the chance to sail a ship they like. (And I hope you will not deny the right to prefer something else than you.)

Will there be enough people to run it profitably? Nobody can know the future, you predict "no", I predict "yes", there are and will be many people you prefer an older classy ship over any of the current newbuilds.

Ken, "can't afford to" is the sad fate for some of us poor, destitute (and misguided) QE2 fans !!!!

 

However, a solution occurs to me: I'd be delighted to discover the glories of QM2 by going along as your butler/valet/luggage carrier when you make your crossing in September...at your expense, of course !!!

 

I'll be waiting to receive my ticket in the mail !!!

 

Tom:)

Come on Tom - you will have to do better than that!!!

For a 12 day Mediterranean cruise this summer on QE2 brochure fares :

for a good old bunk bedded M5 inside is 2,179GBP with the sailaway fare (40% saving) 1,309GBP

For a C1 outside is 4,169GBP with the sailaway fare (40% saving) 2,499BGP

Compared to this a similar 12 night cruise on QM2 will cost 1,999GBP (sailaway 1,699GBP) for a D5 inside and 2689GBP (sailaway 2,149GBP) for a C1 outside.

I know that there are various levels of discount floating about, but the basic pricing between the two ships appears to be similar. My gripe would be that 109GBP per day per person for a 100sq. ft. bunk bedded inside cabin is not what I would call value for money!!!

Sorry to say that all the steerage cabins on the Sept 8 sailing appear to be sold out - you should have 'volunteered' your services earlier!!!!

Out of interest what are you paying for your 2006 QE2 crossing???

Best wishes

Ken

Your last quoted sentence defeats the first one. ...

Well, one sentence was talking about the future and the second was talking about now.

Now, Ken, you do not like the QE2, others do. Hopefully both will have the chance to sail a ship they like. (And I hope you will not deny the right to prefer something else than you.) .....

Of course I do not deny anyone the right to prefer something other than I do, but conversely I do not expect anyone to deny me the right to criticise something I think worthy of criticism.

Will there be enough people to run it profitably? Nobody can know the future, you predict "no", I predict "yes", there are and will be many people you prefer an older classy ship over any of the current newbuilds.

Of course nobody knows the future that's half the fun of these discussions! The point was that there is a fine line between profitability of QE2 now when not much money has been spent lately and profitability in the future given the amount of money that needs to be spent on the ship to a) meet SOLAS 2010 regulations and b) be turned into the 'older classy ship' you refer to.

I hope you enjoy your forthcoming QE2 cruise

Regards

Ken

 

Come on Tom - you will have to do better than that!!!

 

Ken:

I think my poor attempt at being silly and humorous fell flat...

While my weird, misplaced fondness for QE2 will tend to steer my wife and I towards QE2 for the next couple of years, we are actually starting to look longingly at the prospect of sailing aboard QM2.

However, we still want to get in as many QE2 trips as we reasonably can before she's gone. (I don't believe the rumors about an extra 10-15 years for her). My implication was that we just can't (afford, to be honest) sail on both ships each calendar year. It's not a matter of refusing to set foot on QM2...heck, I'd be on both ships, multiple times each year if I could !!

I think some time in the next year or so we might -in the words of a friend- "take the plunge" (no jokes, please) with regard to booking a voyage aboard the world's largest, tallest, longest.....and I know we'll love it !!!

Hmmmm....I still think I'd be a great valet for you.

Tom;)

Excuse me - may I step in a bit from the other side of the pond?

I am a big fan of QE2 for many years now - after 3 sailings in her I've grown quite fond of all aspects of the ship. She is the last of the great ocean liners of the 20th century.

QM2 on the other hand(tho parts are attractive) is just too big for my tastes.

Funny but in 1987 I sailed on QE2 on 5 Deck, then in 2000 on 3 deck & in 2003 on one deck - everything from Mauretania to Queens Grill dining...I prefer Princess Grill. I would choose any of those decks over QM2 anyday for as long as I can.

Funny that I've slept in bunks & king size beds onboard ships...but its the sway of the ship that made me most comfortable & that last walk around the Promenade(Boat) Deck that made me happy.

I'm so happy I tavelled on Ocean liners for a few years - as now there are only cruise ships to choose from.

There is nothing like a transatlantic voyage & I imagime I will do more on QM2 - but Ill be back onboard QE2 for any reason while she still sails -

"World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that there is a rumor that Queen Victoria WILL NOT be completed for Cunard"

Do you think we'll get our deposit back?

"World Ocean and Cruise Liner Society is reporting that there is a rumor that Queen Victoria WILL NOT be completed for Cunard"

 

Do you think we'll get our deposit back?

Colin - was the deposit for the first QV? Or have Cunard been taking deposits for the second one due in 2007? From memory I thought you could claim your deposit back at any time.

Surprised that I am beating Druke I to it but it now appears from the CC P&O Board that Pacific Princess is scheduled to sail from Australia for P&O/Princess into 2007. So rumours about ships changing lines in 2007 or later can't really be relied on as many things can change between now and then. I've heard that QE2 is being painted all white with a big blue stripe down the side and a sun on her funnel and renamed 'Pacific Queen' to sail from exotic destinations !!!! (sorry only kidding!!!)

Ken

Ken

I think you need to reread the post on the P&O Board re Pacific Princess going to P&O Australia. I opened the thread!

Didn't put it here, as P&O Australia is certainly not Cunard - and I have already been accused of fomenting rumor.

Ken

 

I think you need to reread the post on the P&O Board re Pacific Princess going to P&O Australia. I opened the thread!

 

Didn't put it here, as P&O Australia is certainly not Cunard - and I have already been accused of fomenting rumor.

Hi Michael, don't be so sensitive - I know you opened that thread, but as THIS thread is discussing the rumour that Pacific and Tahitian Princesses MAY be going to Cunard I thought it might have been of some interest????

Anyway, Vive Le Rumour !!!

Best wishes

Ken