Whats the matter with Northwest Airlines?

So I am reading the morning business and I came across this:

Last week Northwest canceled 825 flights and it looks as if they will be doing more of the same over the coming days.

At first they blamed weather, then tried to push it off on air traffic control (haha isnt that story getting old) and then they sort of admitted that there was a shortage of pilots. The airline pilots association website says there are 5100 pilots flying NWA planes.

On top of all of this they are refusing to waive cancellation or change penalties for those passengers wishing to avoid flying the airline this week.

Northwest has only been out of Chapter 11 for a little less than a month.

So whats this really about? A dispute between management and labor? That would be my guess.

Airline employees, the more they get the more they want. FAA allows pilots to fly 100 hours per month but those guys at NW refuse to fly more than 90.

I know a person who works for Delta 2 days a week. Guess what? He is considered full time with full time pay and benefits. And here I am working 4 days a week full time! :eek:

Small wonder the airlines cant make a profit.

So whats this really about? A dispute between management and labor? That would be my guess.

 

You pretty much have it. The employees have borne the brunt of the bankruptcy whit pretty good sized pay cuts. The CEO types (I think there were about 529 of them), on the other hand, strolled out of bankruptcy with bonuses.

It is a small wonder they are even getting planes in the air at all.

With NWA headquartered here in MN, we get pretty good coverage of both sides of the issue. This latest trend is being caused by the pilots following the work rules imposed by NWA to the letter. They are not giving any leeway.

The fact that NW blamed the weather (so they didn't have to give compensation to passengers) was really galling to me. I guess it's NW's poor luck to have a rain cloud only over their planes.

Cruisin' Ron,

I am a captain for American Airlines (not Northwest.)

Here is what I know about the situation. The previous posters are correct.

The airlines are a service industry. Their job is to give the best possible service possible. It is my opinion that to do that, airline management must treat the employees with respect and do what it takes to make the employees happy. Happy employees means happy customers. Southwest Airlines has always known that although, they too are having some problems.

This does not mean that every unreasonable employee demand is met. It does mean treating the employee with respect and paying them a fair wage.

As fishing guy just pointed out, almost every airlines management team has slashed employee wages (30-50% in some cases) and employee numbers while rewarding themselves with obscenely (in my opinion) huge bonuses. Less employees are being asked to do more work for less money across the board. That combination does not lend itself to good service in any industry.

You mentioned the Northwest pilots flying 100 hours in each month (FAA maximum) but ONLY flying 90 hours per month. Were you aware that there is also a yearly maximum of FLYING hours of 1,000 hours? So, if each Northwest pilot actually did fly all the way up to 90 hours each month they would all reach the maximum of 1,000 hours for the year right around Christmas time and Northwest would be forced to cancel their entire schedule for Christmas and New Year's.

When you say pilots are ONLY flying 90 hours per month were you aware that this time is only calculated from the time the brakes are released at the gate on pushback to the time the brakes are parked at the gate on arrival? Pilots (and flight attendants) do not get paid for the hour of pre-flight duties we are required to perform before we fly each flight nor are we paid for any post-flight duties either.

A typical duty day (total time on duty) for us quite often exceed 12 hours. So while we may only work 15 to 20 days a month we routinely put in 12 hour days each day at work. That is 180 to 240 hours of work per month. A little more than the typical 40 hour work week.

My airline allows us to go up to 14 hours on duty which we often do during extensive weather delays. The FAA allows up to 16 hours on duty. That means that you only have eight hours to sleep before you have to get up and fly again. Realistically, that means you have only from four to six hours of rest before your next flight since you have to wait for the hotel van, drive to the hotel, undress, unwind, get in bed, try to fall asleep, get up, shower, redress and arrive at the aircraft one hour prior to departure.

Thankfully, most airline pilots and flight attendant contracts stipulate a minimum rest period for safety reasons.

In my opinion, the airlines have been losing money for the last several years due to several reasons:

1. September 11, 2001 (nothing more to be said)

2. Gas prices (a one cent rise in the price of gas typically cost a large

airline MILLIONS of dollars

3. Not pricing their product correctly (what other industry sells their

product for less than it costs to provide?)

As a retired USAir captain recently said in an editorial in the USA Today, the traveling public wants cheap airfares. You cannot have cheap airfare and stellar service. Flying is now cheaper than the bus or driving in many cases. You reap what you sow.

Just my opinion. Others mileage may vary.

Dr. Evil :)

Sorry for the length of my last post. :)

I forgot to mention that it is a dispute between management and the Northwest pilots. Management has furloughed pilots, refuses to bring them back, cannot operate their schedule and asks the pilots on property to fly extra to "help out."

Maybe there are some Northwest pilots on the board that could add to what I've said.

Dr. Evil :)

What concerned me is the lack of available pilots and the fact that the exisiting ones are very stetched. I worry from a safety perspective.

I have to say that I only have flown with them one time and I was very disappointed and this was some years back. I suspect that they are even worse today.

Keith

Keith1010 ...

You are correct. It is a safety issue. Management would have us all flying 200 hours per month if they could get away with it. In reality they would have pilot-less aircraft if they could do it! :eek:

Luckily, the FAA instituted maximum flying times per day, week, month and year. They also mandated required rest periods.

Many years ago (back when flying was in its infancy in the 20's and 30's) there were no such regulations. Airline management (mostly airmail until passenger service was begun) routinely pushed pilots to fly long hours and in dangerous conditions. The pilots finally banned together and said enough is enough.

The pilots of today need to do that again in my opinion.

Dr. Evil :)

dr.evil, thanks for the info on how the airlines work. I'm just an occasional flyer so I have no idea how things work. Your post was very informative:)

Dr Evil,

Thanks for the great information! Very informative and helpful.

I do agree that some companies should treat their employees better. I would also agree that some employees could treat their employers better. Sometimes they tend to cut off their nose to spite their face.

At any rate the way things are going everyone loses! I guess when NWA just goes out of business completely only then will they realize what both sides could have done to make things better.

Thanks again man.

Great response! And so polite!

(P.S. I am an AA Advantage member)

1827cruise,

Thanks. Hope there was something there that helped. Thank you for the kind words.

Dr. Evil :)

To answer the OP--I'm hoping NOTHING! (I'm flying in/out of Alaska this summer on NWA.) Scary stuff--thanks dr. evil for telling me more than I probably want to know. Hope all goes well this summer for all of us travelers! :o

Cruisin' Ron,

Thanks for the reply. I could not agree with you more in your statement that management (employers) and employees should try and work together.

Unfortunately it does not work like that for the most part in the airline industry.

I am an ex-TWA pilot. I am one of the few (less than 500 out of a total of 2300) TWA pilots still flying for American after American bought TWA.

TWA management and the employees finally recognized that they had to work together to make the airline work. American bought TWA before we could see if managment/employee cooperation would ultimately succeed.

In defense of the Northwest employees, it is extremely difficult to work for a management team that cuts your wages, benefits and retirement and awards themselves bonuses. It has to work both ways, in my opinion.

Thanks for flying American Airlines. Mrs. Evil and all the little Evils thank you also. I remind myself every day I'm at work that the passengers I fly pay my salary.

Dr. Evil :)

To answer the OP--I'm hoping NOTHING! (I'm flying in/out of Alaska this summer on NWA.) Scary stuff--thanks dr. evil for telling me more than I probably want to know. Hope all goes well this summer for all of us travelers! :o

Fritzie,

If this helps, I do know that every Northwest Airlines pilot is a professional and that you will have a very safe trip. Let's just hope there are enough pilots the days you are flying.

Enjoy Alaska! Are you on an Alaskan cruise?

Dr. Evil :)

Yep--southbound on the Island Princess. (FWIW, I prefer American Airlines--have always had excellent service with them. Lately we've been flying with UAL b/c DH has been doing a lot of back/forth ORD to Dulles and racking up the FF miles.)

Thanks for the encouragement re: NWA. I don't doubt their safety--just whether we'll actually get on a plane that day! :confused:

I would add a couple more reasons to Dr. Evil's list.

1 Excess capacity - aircraft buying spree means fares have to be lowered to put bums on seats

2 Lo-cost carriers - a very different way of running an airline

That has left the legacy carriers unable to make money since the Southwests and Ryanairs of this world set the fare levels. They are also profitable which the legacy carriers aren't. What hasn't helped is the U.S. Chapter 11 laws. The big six would be healthier if they had got down to the big five or the big four. But they continue to operate under court protection and make life difficult for all those who are not in bankruptcy. Well done, AA.

The world has changed. Why would a senior exec stay with an airline when he is worth more on the open market? Hence your senior guys have to be paid lots because they are mobile. Where else is a trained flight attendant/mechanic/pilot going to go? Gotcha! Lots of very unhappy people and no way out of this mess.

Here in Canada, the senior pilots make a quarter million a year for working two days a week. (Sadly, I am not a pilot.) They fly Toronto - London, leaving home, let's say, Monday afternoon. They are home again 48 hours later and have five days off. Most people reading these boards would, I think, agree that double the hours for half the pay would still be a most attractive job.

Agree with dr.evil ... respect or the lack of it makes up a large part of the dysfuntion in the aviation business. Top managers and execs can hardly hope to run a profitable and efficient business if they are merrily accepting massive bonuses while, at the same time, slashing the number of workers or cutting their wages dramatically or outsourcing as many functions as possible.

If I recall correctly, United's path to bankruptcy started not as a result of 9/11 but because of a pilot slowdown the summer of 2000. Since the company was not willing to bargain in good faith that year, the pilots worked the minimum number of hours presribed in their contract. Well, that led to such massive flight cancellations and disruptions for lack of crew that United started their financial tailspin that summer. Now out of bankruptcy little more than a year, the United pilots are considering a similar job action this summer. Can't blame the workers ... they're seeing their livelihood go down the toilet while the fat cats at the top are reaping enormous financial gains.

Further, as dr.evil pointed out, can't price a products lower than its actual cost ... but that's what the flying public expects: cheap seats and almost unlimited flight choices.

I wouldn't fly Northwest if you gave me a seat for free!! They delayed my flight fot 2 hours, then lost myu luggage, thank goodness it was after my cruise. Their flight attendants were downright rude. I wouldn't fly them ever again.

DougYWG,

Good additions to my list. I agree. And who was responsible for the excess capacity? I would say management. Who took the pay reductions for too many seats chasing too few behinds?

Senior pilots? I have no idea how much Air Canada pilots are paid. I know how much U.S. pilots are paid.

Did you know the next time you fly on a regional jet (the smaller 37-70 passenger jets) that the co-pilot is making $25,000 a year and the captain is making $50,000 a year?

Do you want a low paid pilot at the front of your airplane when you are flying?

The problem is, as I see it, that most if not all pilots are extremely professional and will do the job (i.e. complete the mission) to the best of their ability regardless of the situation. Management knows that and has used that against us.

Again, in my opinion, it is time to be compensated for the very specialized and important (and I say this not to sound pompous or self-important but we do have several hundred lives in our care every day) work that we do.

Dr. Evil :)

As an AA EXP, I value AA and their employees tremendously. NEVER been treated badly by AA, even when I had no status and was a lowly college student. Can't say that about other airlines. As I fly out of PHX, it would be MUCH easier to fly US Air. But I value the airline, the employees, the service, the AC's. You really do know why we fly!!!

Agreed, Dr. Evil. It was a dumb management decision, approved by the board of directors of course, to buy too much capacity.

The few pilots I have met over the years have been very professional. Maybe the problem is the disparity between starting and ending salaries for the guys in the sharp end. If all of them are qualified pilots, which they are, why should some get ten times more than others? After years of piling up the hours and the bills in order to get hired by an airline, how do you feed a wife and two kids on twenty-five grand? You grit your teeth and put in your time until it is your turn, I suppose. Again, not being a pilot, I have to assume that is what the pilots want. It's their union, it's their contract. Flight attendants and mechanics don't have ten to one, do they?

Northwest's (and everybody else's) pilots are trapped. However much they dislike what is happening, they are terribly stuck and the alternatives are much worse. After several years with the company, they cannot walk away and go somewhere else like an MBA could. They would be back to the beginning on twenty-five grand and start all over again.

If I recall correctly, United's path to bankruptcy started not as a result of 9/11 but because of a pilot slowdown the summer of 2000. Since the company was not willing to bargain in good faith that year, the pilots worked the minimum number of hours presribed in their contract. Well, that led to such massive flight cancellations and disruptions for lack of crew that United started their financial tailspin that summer. Now out of bankruptcy little more than a year, the United pilots are considering a similar job action this summer. Can't blame the workers ... they're seeing their livelihood go down the toilet while the fat cats at the top are reaping enormous financial gains.

One would think the pilots would be smart enough to recognize that the last time was SO successful. Sending the company further into financial disaster isn't going to help their salaries.

I'm sorry, I'm far less sympathetic to the unions in this case. Yeah, maybe your job sucks and you're not being paid enough for it (although I think in some cases this is kinda debatable). That's true for a lot of people out there. But taking it out on the innocent bystanders isn't going to gain you a lot of sympathy.

Personally, I don't fly NW anymore (which for me is a pain, because I tend to fly out of detroit). The last straw for me with them was a labor action that resulted in a four hour delay for no good reason. Let's just say as a result I wasn't exactly too sympathetic when the mechanics at NW lost their jobs.

(I realize this opinion probably isn't going to be real popular in this thread based on what's been said so far. I think it's important for people to realize though that you're hearing the pilot's side of the story here, and should be treated as one side of the story, and not the gospel truth).

piper28 ....

You are correct. It is the pilot's side of the story. There are many sides to every story. Mine is just one. I believe, in every one of my posts I've tried to make it abundantly clear that everything I write is only my opinion.

I have just a few responses to your comments. Most pilots (like myself) aren't any smarter than anyone else. We do, however, possess an extremely specialized skill that not everyone can obtain.

I know there is a large percentage of the population that feels pilots are paid well enough or even too much.

This is just a wild guess on my part (I don't have the actual figures) but over the last 30 years pilot salaries adjusted for inflation have probably decreased at least 50 percent.

You are correct that the innocent customer is always the one to suffer when management and labor begin to fight. But what would you have labor do? Roll over for every reduction in wages, poorer working conditions and quality of life?

We are a service industry that gives crappy service because management is more concerned about their bonuses than the product they provide. Management continues to beat labor down and then instructs us to work harder for less compensation.

Every time I fly I try to give each one of our passengers the most pleasant, smoothest flight they've ever had. I don't always succeed but I always try. I also try and thank each and every passenger personally because I know from where my pay check comes.

Yes I am labor. I would hope that if I ever became management (probably not going to happen) that I would lead by example. If labor took a percentage pay cut than I would take the same percentage cut. I would not pat myself on the back, tell everyone what a great job I did slashing costs by reducing my payroll, and then reward myself with a fat bonus.

Next time you are inconvenienced by a work stoppage (and I hope you never are again), please remember that there are at least two sides to every story.

Dr. Evil :)

You are correct that the innocent customer is always the one to suffer when management and labor begin to fight. But what would you have labor do? Roll over for every reduction in wages, poorer working conditions and quality of life?

No, I just feel that a way to work it out with destroying the travel of vacationers and business travelers. Most of us don't really have any options when we don't like our jobs pay or working conditions than to find another job. That's always an option for pilots too.

I also think it's interesting that one of the reasons NW lists is "unexpectedly high pilot absenteeism." If there are pilots calling in sick that aren't really sick, then quite frankly I think they should be dealt with pretty harshly.

I do think it's a little different when it's an announced strike, because the rules require that to be announced a certain period in advance. That gives people a chance to work around that. But when it's a situation like this, that's no longer an option.

I do tend to think that the actions are sometimes a little short sighted. If a company gets run out of business through the actions of it's employees, that's a lot of employees that aren't going to have a job. And I wouldn't really say any of the US airlines are in the greatest of positions at this point, for a lot of reasons (and yes, part of that is indeed do to some pretty questionable management decisions over the years too).

NWA is just one big mess. They really hacked off the air traffic controllers because in addition to blaming the weather, they have now blamed ATC's and the head of the air traffic controllers association blasted them in the media for what he called their "outright lies". ATC has not caused NWA to cancel 1000 flights. It's their mismanagement of flight operations and their refusal to call back over 400 pilots. Being stuck in a small market like Milwaukee, we don't have a lot of choice in flying. It's either NWA or Midwest, and both are problematic.