K.T.B.

On 4/17/2021 at 4:25 PM, OccasionalSanta said:

Interesting observation. However the fake beard is done at my discretion and does not hinder breathing. 

Neither does a mask, which has been medically proven.  So there's that.  

I know I'm "late to the game" here, but the one thing people on these eventual test cruises will need to be be aware of is that it won't be a typical cruise.  You're going to be asked to do certain things to simulate real life situations.  You WILL need to wear a mask.  The time will not be your own the majority of the time.  The cruise lines will need to be able to proof that they can handle any type of situation that might come up, and this will probably include a simulated covid outbreak on board.

Yes, you'll be on a cruise ship, but you'll be a guinea pig basically.  A test cruise will be used to test every protocol in place.  So don't expect to be chair hogging and foo-foo drinking your way to a free cruise. 

35 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

OTOH, it's only late April and a lot can be accomplished to gain favor with the CDC before that first Millennium sailing in early June. Just because it's not making news, doesn't mean the folks at Celebrity aren't working hard to come to an equitable solution with the CDC to start sailing out of the US in July. At least that's my hope. 😁  

Ken gets it.

Anyway, interesting news here.  Carnival Corp contracts Bureau Veritas.  From the article:  The company will be supporting Carnival Corporation with health and safety services to facilitate the return to cruising, protecting passengers and crew.

27 minutes ago, nocl said:

They have told the cruise lines what needed to be done:

 

1. Get ships approved to exchange crew through the US - Completed for several ships

2. Get agreements in place with ports to deal with potential Covid cases

3. Submit plans for test cruises for approval

4. Demonstrate protocols by successfully conducting test cruises

5. Start up cruises with passengers utilizing approved and demonstrated protocols.

 

Unfortunately the cruise lines stopped at step 1 and then for not all of their ships.

Incorrect.  NCL has done so, and I think others have as well, not sure and I need to research, but there's been only radio silence.  I've mentioned this numerous times.  As for test cruises, Celebrity is sort of doing this out of St. Maarten, so we shall see.  And there have been dozens of cruises in Europe that have sailed pre-vaccine with an extreme amount of success, proving it can be done.  

EDIT TO ADD: LINK to the CDC ignoring of a proposal.

SECOND EDIT: Cruise lines proposal offered back in October, pre-vaccine, also ignored.  LINK

Oh yeah....

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

 I am bored and frustrated at this point.  Done.  

Bye.  Enjoy your frustration.

39 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Here's the quote and the link to the CDC statement made the same day as the technical instructions were released.  I am done with this semantics game with you.  A "plan" is a "plan" is a "plan".  They are recommending that port personnel, passengers and crew get a vaccine.  They want to know how the cruise lines will do that if a vaccinate component for crew is incorporated.

 

COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0402-conditional-sail-orders.html

The CDC needs to TELL the cruise line under no uncertain terms that this needs to be done and will be done.  Period.  Meanwhile, Frank Del Rio awaits the CDC's response to NCL's letter in which they outline their ideas (one of which you highlighted...).

CDC took it upon themselves to stop cruising, which, at the time, was the right thing to do.  Now they need to actually DO something and not just say, "well,  maybe you guys need to do this, what do you guys suggest?"  And then ignore the suggestions they've had for nearly a month.  They had the cajones to stop cruising for health & safety, now they need to have the cajones to regulate the health needs of cruising.

I am NOT going to have my mind changed on this.

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Because the CDC recommended that all crew be vaccinated when they become eligible. Not a mandate but an element that will assist in the restart.  Nothing to do with mandating vaccines for cruise passengers.  
 

I’m glad to see you actually went back to read the technical instructions. 

Nothing in there about "when they become eligible".  It pointedly says, "Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel."  They want the cruise lines to have their personnel vaccinated.  That's a mandate, not a recommendation, not a suggestion. 

27 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

So you want the CDC to mandate vaccines, which they can’t do, and then think it’s “sneaky” to encourage the cruise lines to require them as an easier method for securing approval?  It’s not dishonest. It’s about negotiation. Happens all the time. 
So how do you propose that we get to vaccinated sailings?  Or are you against them?

 

The CSO (not a No Sail Order) does require that each line submit a plan for restart in accord with the framework.  What assumptions under the CSO are you saying are no longer valid?  Vaccines have been recognized as a prospective component of the CSO as per the CDC’s statement on the 12th. 

Ok, so they can't mandate vaccines?

Here's the CDC's second phase:

• Increasing from weekly to daily the reporting frequency of COVID-19 cases and illnesses.
• Implementing routine testing of all crew based on each ship’s color status.
• Updating the color-coding system used to classify ships’ status with respect to COVID-19.
• Decreasing the time needed for a “red” ship to become “green” from 28 to 14 days based on the availability of onboard testing, routine screening testing protocols, and daily reporting.
• Creating planning materials for agreements that port authorities and local health authorities must approve to ensure cruise lines have the necessary infrastructure in place to manage an outbreak of COVID-19 on their ships to include healthcare capacity and housing to isolate infected people and quarantine those who are exposed.
• Establishing a plan and timeline for vaccination of crew and port personnel.

That last line is important.  If the CDC can't mandate vaccines, why do they require a plan and timeline for the crew and port personnel to be vaccinated?  Sounds like they're mandating to me.

49 minutes ago, gmjc2 said:

KTB --are you on the Meet and Greet list for June 12th?  How about slot pull? 

I don't have a cruise on June 12th.

5 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

When you get there, just look for the old(er) very handsome man with a salt n pepper beard, I'll be sitting with the lovely blonde woman!

I'll be sitting next to a blonde woman??  Please don't tell my redheaded wife....

IMO, if the CDC has the power to enforce the CSO, they have the power to create the rules that will allow for the opening of cruising from the US.  They can't have one without the other.  They can't say one one hand, "we can stop cruise ships," and then say on the other, "oh, we can't make recommendations to get them moving again."  However, they have made some rules (i.e. ventilation requirements, which the lines have done), they've just stopped short of suggesting that everyone be vaccinated.

And let me point this out.  The following is what the CDC says we can do once we're fully vaccinated (LINK) :

• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with other fully vaccinated people of any age
• Visit inside a home or private setting without a mask with one household of unvaccinated people who are not at risk for severe illness
• Travel domestically without a pre- or post-travel test
• Travel domestically without quarantining after travel
• Travel internationally without a pre-travel test depending on destination
• Travel internationally without quarantining after travel

They recognize that, once people are fully vaccinated, we can travel safely, domestically and internationally.  So the continued shut down of the cruise industry in the US flies in the face of what we can do based on what they, themselves, say....

I know one thing, I can certainly use one of those drinks being offered around here.

1 hour ago, hcat said:

Odd news reported today,  an  Iowa health official and counties in another state declined  vaccine  allotment based on inability to utlize it right now. 

 

I think the J and J incident has set back progress in getting more people vaccinated..more fear, more want to wait and see,,,yikes!

Here's the story on that:  LINK

IMO, it sounds like the people who wanted the vaccine have all gotten it by now in Iowa, or have appointments already.  I'd be curious to know what percentage of the entire population will have been vaccinated.  Unfortunately they do not have numbers from pharmacies.

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Agreed.  It is the way forward for cruising to start.  Fain and Arnold Donald appear to want the CDC to make the decision for them.  I think it's a bit of cowardice.  The CDC is not going to mandate vaccines to cruise, but they may otherwise "imply" it's necessary.  Arnold Donald talked about respecting "personal freedom and personal liberty".  So is that the approach Carnival is going to take when enforcing its other health protocols.  They all need to realize that the overwhelming majority of cruisers will be in favor of mandated vaccines and get on with it!

How is it cowardice?  CDC implemented the CSO, so now they need to lay it all out for what they expect the cruise lines to do.  Not just supply some general guidelines.  I wholeheartedly agree that all cruisers and crew members need to be vaccinated.  The CDC needs to say this and not expect the cruise lines to do so.  Even though I suspect the lines do want it, they just want it to come from the CDC.

The most recent update of the CSO was on April 2 for the "Technical Instructions for Mitigation of COVID-19 Among Cruise Ship Crew", they're "new phase",  And this is what it says:

Added the Routine COVID-19 Laboratory Screening Testing of All Crew Section, the Procedures for Embarking Contractors Overnight and Visitors Overnight Section, and the Procedures for Embarking Day Contractors and Day Visitors Section. Clarified laboratory parameters and testing options. Updated surveillance reporting requirement to daily, revised the color-coding system, and COVID-19-like illness definition.

That's it.  The most recent change prior to that?  September 17th (though they gave a "Summary of Past Changes" on Feb. 18th) for "Interim Guidance".

The CSO, for the most part, has remained as is since it was put in place.  And this is the reason for the frustration on MY part.  Despite all the PR media moments, I just don't see that the CDC is doing much of anything, especially in giving any guidance.

And D C said it best (which I am highlighting):

54 minutes ago, D C said:

I wonder what is the path to prove that a ship full of vaccinated people is a completely safe environment?

 

Extremely remote chance of infection after vaccination

Infinitesimally small chance of infection and death when vaccinated

That we know with absolute certainty right now.  The public knows it.  The CDC knows it, but won't admit that it applies to cruise ships.

 

Masks outside have been absolute fluff since day 1 with no transmission resulting from brief, casual contact.   Again, the CDC knows it, but won't admit what they know.

 

 

Look, it's simple, the CDC is dropping the ball here.  They're like the parent who has punished their child, but now they're expecting the child to come up with what needs to be done with the rules of discipline, but they keep poo-pooing everything, while giving no suggestions.  If that sounds confusing, it's because it is.  

I want a safe cruise.  We have a strong path to getting them.  Now it needs to be done.  Period.  

19 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Yes, the bitterness and resentment towards the CDC is just overwhelming in some of these posts.  What a shame.

They're not offering solutions, they're just offering roadblocks.   The CDC got so entrenched in the politicalness of this disease that I cannot believe anything they propose now.  Again, when the director cannot answer a simple question about wearing a mask outside, how are we supposed to feel?

And now Europe is going to allow vaccinated Americans to visit:  LINK. That, to me, says a lot.  How will the CDC respond?  I expect doom & gloom.

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

 CDC is committed to working with the cruise industry and seaport partners to resume cruising following a phased approach required by the CSO. CDC and DHS senior leadership will begin meetings with cruise industry leaders starting this week.

 

Pardon me while I laugh at that.  Again, there's been no "working together" here.  That was commented on April 12th, nothing happened this past week.  The proposal that NCL put together was ignored.  So if they're so committed, they need to, you know, at least RESPOND.

I'm extremely down on the CDC right now for a variety or reasons, none of which are political.  Dr. Walensky just doesn't seem up to the job.  Hell, she couldn't even answer a simple question last week of whether people should still wear masks outside or not.  (Many doctors said, "no need if there's there's social distancing.")  And we're all supposed to trust her judgment as to when we can all start traveling again?

Whether it's accurate or not, it certainly feels that the CDC is operating on information gathered a year ago with no updates whatsoever, while ignoring the fact that people are getting vaccinated.

I cannot wait until the cruises out of St Maarten all sail with no issues at all.  Thereby proving the plan put in place by Celebrity for those cruises works.

But thank you for posting that.  Even though I find it laughable, at least the CDC's PR dept. is getting their job done....

1 hour ago, memoak said:

Deposits are minimal and I doubt anyone is making full payment for cruises that are not sailing. I have moved all of our 2021 cruises to 2022. I am not counting on any cruise happening for another 5 to 6 months from now

Agreed.  I am still holding firm of my prediction of cruising really beginning in October and reduced capacity, with full on cruising in December.  All with fully vaccinated passengers and crew.

15 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The airlines are absolutely essential to keeping commerce going in this country.  Their overall economic impact is enormous both in terms of direct and indirect economic consequences.  They obviously did buck at the prospect of testing for domestic travel simply because of the enormity of the task.  A decision was made not to pursue domestic airline testing based on economics.  International airline testing is being done.  

 

You are trying to argue that politics is the primary impetus behind the halt in cruising from the US.  If so, those politics have been around for the last 13 months.  Why now all the hue and cry?  If politicians really hold all the keys, then why didn't they do something until now to stop the shutdown.

 

You have not acknowledged that the CDC and the lines are now working together to get cruising started.  Why not?  Is it because it spoils the story line?

And just HOW are they "working together"?  I've seen a few articles about cruise lines (i.e. NCL) offering proposals, but there's stone cold silence form the CDC.  Even a rejection would be "working together", but there's not even that.

There's no "working together" going on here.  It's the CDC refusing to even consider listening to any proposal.  They're quite happy with the CSO because they don't have to really do anything about it until it gets closer to November 1st.  Now if there is something I have missed, PLEASE show me.  I would love to be proven wrong, because that means the CDC genuinely wants to get thousands of people back to work and a few states' economies up and running again.

8 hours ago, tanyaewa said:

Of course it’s easier to catch covid on an airplane.  But by the time symptoms arise you are off and gone. So bad so sad to those I was on the plane with.
On a ship you may still be onboard and infecting everything in sight for multiple days and those folks will do the same and so on and so on.  

Airlines can wash their hands of liability when people just pass through but the cruise lines are left holding the bag during an outbreak. 
 

This is why cruising will be the last travel option to resume IMO. It’s a huge responsibility to keep litigation happy passengers safe and healthy

Which is why I am eager to see how the cruises that Celebrity is doing out of St. Maarten fare.  Passengers and crew member all vaccinated, kids under 16 negative Covid test 72 hours prior to sailing.  If they all sail with zero problems, then it's been proven that cruising can return under those rules.

4 hours ago, NavArch64 said:

See COVID-19 and Cruise Ship Travel - COVID-19 Very High - Level 4: COVID-19 Very High - Travel Health Notices | Travelers' Health | CDC  for current info.

IMO, there's a far greater chance of catching Covid on an airplane than on a cruise. IMO, they're unfairly singling out cruising because of what happened last year at about this time when doctors we're still trying to figure out this virus.  I think they're "stuck" on what happened on Diamond Princess and refuse to move off of it.

If you're unvaccinated, there is a risk.

2 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Last time I checked, freedom of religious expression is a protected constitutional right.  Freedom to cruise is not.  I know that sounds simplistic, but government agencies like the CDC, and even state and local health authorities, are given wide latitude by the courts in matters concerning public health. The CDC does not have authority over any state or local business or industry.  They do have control over international travel.  I would imagine that if the CDC had more control within a state, then they may have been more aggressive than state and local governments have been throughout this pandemic mess.

 

The cruise lines have not really committed to anything under the CSO.  None, except NCL, have even submitted a written proposal to the CDC concerning how they intend to work within the framework, and other than vaccines and suggested health protocols NCL wants the CSO to disappear.  What they have used as protocols in other parts of the world have apparently worked, but they are still obligated to commit to a specific plan here.  The CSO is not going away any time soon and the lines are now working directly with the CDC to address the cruise lines concerns and try to formulate workable changes to the CSO for a mid-Summer restart.  Let's hope each party does their part.

 

 

I agree with you about the "freedom to cruise".  However, we do have a "Freedom of Movement".  

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly, reads:

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

And that's all it says.  I've got into an argument with someone over this and the were unyielding in their opinion that we have a right to cruise.  They're wrong.  We have a right to travel, but the mode is entirely up to us. Flying is a privilege and not a right.  Cruising is a privilege and not a right.  Driving is a privilege and not a right.  Taking the train is a privilege and not a right.

And with every right we have in the US, there are some caveats.  For example, we have freedom of speech, but we cannot yell "fire" in a theater.  Same thing with travelling in that we have the freedom to do so, but every mode has their own rules that we must follow.  With flying and driving, we must wear a seat belt.  With flying, nowadays, you must wear a mask the entire time on the plane.  And with cruising, it appears the majority of the lines are going to possibly require passengers and crew be vaccinated. 

Here's hoping the CDC is willing to at least talking about changing the CSO.  So far, that doesn't appear to be the case.  Maybe they'll surprise me, who knows?  But if these cruises in the Bahamas that Celebrity is doing are highly successful, the CDC, IMO, won't have a leg to stand on in terms of preventing re-opening.  it will have been proven that cruising can be safe.  Fingers crossed!