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anyone go to europe with a handicapped scooter?


JoyB

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Hi,

I have ask this on the handicapped boards too. , no one every answers. I would really like to go on Celebrity cruise that stops in Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy; Santorini, Greece; Istanbul, Turkey; Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey; Athens (Piraeus), Greece; Mykonos, Greece; Naples/capri, Italy; Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy

my husband has a handicapped scooter. has anyone gone to any of those stops that had a scooter? were you able to get tranportion around the town to tour. Should we not even go?

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Hi, I have ask this on the handicapped boards too. , no one every answers. I would really like to go on Celebrity cruise that stops in Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy; Santorini, Greece; Istanbul, Turkey; Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey; Athens (Piraeus), Greece; Mykonos, Greece; Naples/capri, Italy; Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy my husband has a handicapped scooter. has anyone gone to any of those stops that had a scooter? were you able to get tranportion around the town to tour. Should we not even go?

 

Great potential cruise stops. I cannot speak to the port options (other than it's Europe and things can be more challenging there than in the USA). It's all of that "old stuff", rougher pavement, small elevators, etc.

 

On the ship, we saw one of the access rooms and we very, very impressed by that set-up and how the many design details were done in those rooms and throughout the ship. On the Solstice-class ships, it's new and smart how they prepared for all of those many needs for someone with that type of scooter or wheelchairs. You'll be impressed with the access rooms, the features like how the doors open, wide areas, elevator button placements, etc.

 

In many of these ports, private tours will probably be best. Contact some of the private tour operators, such as RomeInLimo, for Naples, Rome, etc. Get their suggestion and ideas on how to balance those needs, options. Below are a few visual previews for what can be seen and enjoyed in these historic areas. You might need to do more "driving by", but it's all wonderful and beautiful. Hate to miss these world-class sites and sights.

 

What are your personal interests, past Europe travel experiences??

 

You can check out my earlier post on “Athens Tips, Suggestions, Examples to Enjoy!” for many details, ideas and interesting visuals on this great city. Lots of ideas here from me and others experienced with Athens.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1101008

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 53,713 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

 

 

Outdoor dining in the Plaka in the heart of Athens’ historic area. Lots of music and fun, shopping, music, plus good food. Don't miss this part of Athens!!:

 

PlakaDining.jpg

 

 

Looking downhill towards the library and other ruins from when Ephesus, along the Turkish Coast, was Rome's capital of Asia Minor. Fairly rough pavement here. Wonderful, interesting site and area. Great history here.:

 

EphRuinsLongShot.jpg

 

 

At Ephesus, architectural details on its famed library building:

 

LibraryDetails.jpg

 

 

Here’s a sampling of the narrow flowered street in Mykonos with its many shops. The streets were made so narrow in order to fend off pirate attackers. It is an island with lots of history and legend dating back thousands of years, including connections to ancient Greek mythology. Ionians settled on Mykonos in the early part of the 11th century BC. As Delos developed as a sacred center, Mykonos was under the influences of the different people, including Phoenicians, Macedonians and Athenians. With the rise of Alexander the Great, the fate of Mykonos became a commercial center for agriculture and maritime trade. Mykonos flourished with enormous wealth during Roman occupation during the reign of Augustus Caesar. During the Middle Ages, Mykonos fell under the Venetians and later were victimized by the Saracens and latter the Turks. Starting in the 1950’s, its unique architecture, seclusion and hospitality have made it a haven for the rich and famous.:

 

1A-Myk-FlowerStreet.jpg

 

 

The Solarium was one of our favorite areas. Food and drinks were nearby and it was very relaxed and sophisticated. Quieter, too, as it is an adults-only area. Two hot tubs here. Not crowded, especially in the evenings. Nice art and design with this facility. Wonderful setting for relaxing and watching the outside water/shore views, enjoying subtle inside action, etc.:

 

SolsticeSolariumSunnyDay.jpg

 

 

When the sun was setting as the Solstice sailed from Rome to Naples, here was the visual on the back lawn on the ship’s top, back level. Dramatic and beautiful!!:

 

SolsticeSunsetBackLawn.jpg

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This spring, we took my parents to the Med on RCCL's Mariner OTS. My mom has multiple sclerosis and we decided to rent a handicapped scooter for the vacation. It was, without a doubt, the BEST possible decision. We booked private excursions in each port and did 3 extra days in Rome pre/post cruise.

 

The cruise line was very accommodating to all special needs passengers and the ship itself was designed with handicapped travelers in mind. We did not book an accessible room, but we did have a Junior Suite which afforded a little more room to park her cart.

 

Our ports of call were Messina, Athens, Ephesus/Kusadai, Rhodes, Crete and Naples. All of these ports were docking ports. You might challenges in Santorini as it is a tender port.

 

Here are some tips that helped us:

 

1. Carry an extra battery. The cobblestones and hills can really drain the batteries--we used the extra at least 3 times during the cruise.

 

2. Understand that historic places will not be accessible but most will--even the Acropolis has a handicap lift! We only ran into access problems at some of the smaller, less popular churches and ruins.

 

3. Practice using the cart in crowds--All the major cities will be packed with tourists--especially Rome. My mom gets nervous with a lot of people around her so we "warmed up" on side streets before heading into the city center.

 

4. Taxis are your friend. Most cities we took a cab downtown and then walked from there. In every instance the driver was very helpful in setting up the cart and getting it in the trunk. Again, in Rome, the subway and train stations are not all accessible. We learned this the hard way!

 

5. Plan Plan Plan--We did extensive web research on our ports and you'd be surprised at the amount of information that available. We knew exactly which ports were and were not scooter friendly and planned around the challenges

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Hi,

I have ask this on the handicapped boards too. , no one every answers. I would really like to go on Celebrity cruise that stops in Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy; Santorini, Greece; Istanbul, Turkey; Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey; Athens (Piraeus), Greece; Mykonos, Greece; Naples/capri, Italy; Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy

my husband has a handicapped scooter. has anyone gone to any of those stops that had a scooter? were you able to get tranportion around the town to tour. Should we not even go?

 

YES! You should go! It's very very doable. You only live once and the ports are simply amazing. We even took the scooter on the ferry to Capri and then to Sorrento. You can do it!

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I have been to the places you ask about. Although I am not handicapped please accept my comments as an observer and a person very conscious of people in wheelchairs.

While you may get around in many of the place you will not be able to see it all by any means. Transportation to and from will be challenging. I am quite certain that the tour buses are not amenable to scooters or even wheelchairs.

Athens for instance, you will not make it to the Parthenon. There are places you can get around on a scooter but many not.

Santorini, while accessible for parts of it, many places have steps which would make it very difficult to navigate. The best part of Thera and Oia (the two main towns) is the walk overlooking the caldera and it is on uneven ground and with steps.

Ephesus is spectacular but, getting around on a scooter would be a significant challenge. A lot uneven ground and hills and stone paths.

Mykonos, is a small village but it is one place that a scooter should easily be able to handle. The ship docks a bit away from the village so getting to town may present problems.

Rome is spectacular and except for many cobblestone streets and steps, you should be able to get around. There are the inevitable steps to get into places like the Vatican (although I did see handicap lifts in the Vatican), Pantheon, and the Forum. The Colosseum can be manageable and has an elevator so, you will be able to see the site. I think you will be able to get a full appreciation of Rome.

Naples, well, in my very humble opinion, is not worth spending too much time in. Capri is a big boat ride to an overpriced small island and the most famous site (blue Grotto) would not be easy for a handicapped person to see as you must make a transfer from a tour boat to a row boat to get into the Grotto. Pompeii and the Amalfi coast are the places to see. Unfortunately the Amalfi coast towns (Positano, Amalfi) are not wheelchair friendly but, Sorrento is worth a stop and very easily seen by scooter (as a matter of fact, it was very hot one year and I wished I had a scooter LOL).

Pompeii, Herculaneum and a few other sites are working very hard to make themselves accessible but they have a long way to go. Changes are rapid so it would behoove you to check how they are doing by going directly to their websites and asking them.

a couple other things, European power is 220-240 volts 60Hz. Plugs are inconveniently placed so make sure you have enough cabling and cords to get that electricity. Public transport (buses and trains and ferries) are not always accessible. Many hotels do not have acceptability for wheelchairs either, specifically ask them when booking and, ask them where those rooms are (very often they are old hotels or refurbished villas and they just stick one room in the back for the handicapped). Public washrooms can present a problem too.

Lastly, finding a van that has room for the scooter and other passengers will be difficult and not cheap. Be prepared to pay quite a bit. I am hoping to take my Mom on a European cruise with us and she has mobility issues as well and the planning is challenging. Good luck on your planning and I hope you find a way to enjoy a vacation like the cruise you are looking at.

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I have been to the places you ask about. Although I am not handicapped please accept my comments as an observer and a person very conscious of people in wheelchairs.

While you may get around in many of the place you will not be able to see it all by any means. Transportation to and from will be challenging. I am quite certain that the tour buses are not amenable to scooters or even wheelchairs.

Athens for instance, you will not make it to the Parthenon. There are places you can get around on a scooter but many not.

Santorini, while accessible for parts of it, many places have steps which would make it very difficult to navigate. The best part of Thera and Oia (the two main towns) is the walk overlooking the caldera and it is on uneven ground and with steps.

Ephesus is spectacular but, getting around on a scooter would be a significant challenge. A lot uneven ground and hills and stone paths.

Mykonos, is a small village but it is one place that a scooter should easily be able to handle. The ship docks a bit away from the village so getting to town may present problems.

Rome is spectacular and except for many cobblestone streets and steps, you should be able to get around. There are the inevitable steps to get into places like the Vatican (although I did see handicap lifts in the Vatican), Pantheon, and the Forum. The Colosseum can be manageable and has an elevator so, you will be able to see the site. I think you will be able to get a full appreciation of Rome.

Naples, well, in my very humble opinion, is not worth spending too much time in. Capri is a big boat ride to an overpriced small island and the most famous site (blue Grotto) would not be easy for a handicapped person to see as you must make a transfer from a tour boat to a row boat to get into the Grotto. Pompeii and the Amalfi coast are the places to see. Unfortunately the Amalfi coast towns (Positano, Amalfi) are not wheelchair friendly but, Sorrento is worth a stop and very easily seen by scooter (as a matter of fact, it was very hot one year and I wished I had a scooter LOL).

Pompeii, Herculaneum and a few other sites are working very hard to make themselves accessible but they have a long way to go. Changes are rapid so it would behoove you to check how they are doing by going directly to their websites and asking them.

a couple other things, European power is 220-240 volts 60Hz. Plugs are inconveniently placed so make sure you have enough cabling and cords to get that electricity. Public transport (buses and trains and ferries) are not always accessible. Many hotels do not have acceptability for wheelchairs either, specifically ask them when booking and, ask them where those rooms are (very often they are old hotels or refurbished villas and they just stick one room in the back for the handicapped). Public washrooms can present a problem too.

Lastly, finding a van that has room for the scooter and other passengers will be difficult and not cheap. Be prepared to pay quite a bit. I am hoping to take my Mom on a European cruise with us and she has mobility issues as well and the planning is challenging. Good luck on your planning and I hope you find a way to enjoy a vacation like the cruise you are looking at.

 

I would respectfully disagree with some of your comments:

 

1. Yes, you CAN do the Parthenon on a scooter. There is a handicap lift in the park that takes you to the top of the rock. It's open air and on the back side of the park.

 

2. Many of the tour buses have a lift--even the Hop on/Hop off buses in the large cities. OP just needs to research which ones and have a plan.

 

3. We did Ephesus with a scooter and it was fine. The main path is well traveled. The rider would need to leave the cart to actually enter the ruins--like the Library of Celsus.

 

4. Most power adapters for scooters will be 120-240 compatible. If not, a standard travel converter will work--plus the ship plugs are 120.

 

5. Trip Advisor is a great resource for pre/post hotels. We found a charming hotel in Rome that was near the subway and had an elevator.

 

Any trip is what you make of it. IMHO working around some physical restrictions shouldn't be a reason to cancel

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One more thing. We used a collapsible scooter called a Travelscoot. It was fantastic. It only weighs 15 lbs--with the battery! It was great for getting around and easily breaks down into a bag for travel/storage. Highly recommend this.

 

Also, we added a bell to the scooter--helped to get oblivious people out of the way. Especially helped in Rome.

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Hi,

I have ask this on the handicapped boards too. , no one every answers. I would really like to go on Celebrity cruise that stops in Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy; Santorini, Greece; Istanbul, Turkey; Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey; Athens (Piraeus), Greece; Mykonos, Greece; Naples/capri, Italy; Rome (Civitavecchia), Italy

my husband has a handicapped scooter. has anyone gone to any of those stops that had a scooter? were you able to get tranportion around the town to tour. Should we not even go?

 

On 6/11 Solstice cruise I saw several scooters. Check with the special needs dept of X.

As for ports-each is different. Can your DH manage steps (gangway to tender)? I saw a person slowly walk the gangway and with assistance board a tender. The crew was very gentle with both him and his scooter-so easy chore in a tender. I would check with pvt drivers re tours. Also check with the local tourist offices and specifically ask about handicapped travel. Work with a good travel agent

Have a great cruise

Carole

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On 6/11 Solstice cruise I saw several scooters. Check with the special needs dept of X. As for ports-each is different. Can your DH manage steps (gangway to tender)? I saw a person slowly walk the gangway and with assistance board a tender. The crew was very gentle with both him and his scooter-so easy chore in a tender. I would check with pvt drivers re tours. Also check with the local tourist offices and specifically ask about handicapped travel. Work with a good travel agent. Have a great cruise. Carole

 

Excellent tips and observations from Carole who was just head of us on the Solstice in June. Lots of other very good ideas and thoughts from the others.

 

Agree that the ship people are very helpful and experienced in working to make things work for passengers in needed. That advance research does pay-off and help.

 

Tell us more on your husband's specific interests, needs, etc. Lots of great things to experience in these wonderful Europe ports.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 53,713 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

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I use a Pride Go Go Elite Traveler and have taken it on many cruises. There are inherent problems when traveling in Europe with a scooter. They don't have, or don't comply with a law like the American's With Disabilities Act, so access to a lot of places is not possible.

 

Lots of places do not have cut outs in curbs and the cobblestone streets are very hard on scooters, and can cause breakdowns. Fortunately, I was able to get engineers on the ship to fix my scooter when it did break down on one trip.

 

Your main problem is transportation from the ports. Cruise lines don't tend to hire tour buses that are accessible. If your husband can climb the steep stairs of a tour bus, they may be able to put the scooter in the luggage hold of the bus. Otherwise you will have to go via private cars. I always choose to do that because a private car can get so much closer to sites than a tour bus. My driver got me right to Trevi Fountain, he pulled right up to the Pantheon, and he assisted me with getting the ramp into St Peter's open for my scooter.

 

As for the ports, I can only relate my personal experience with my scooter.

 

Santorini is impossible for a couple of reasons. First, it's a tender port and most ships will not allow a person in a scooter onto the tender. Second, the only way to reach the top of the hill to Santorini is either via a donkey or a funicular, and the funicular is NOT at all accessible. But even if it were, once you get off the funicular, you can only go a couple hundred feet before you hit steps, and Santorini is nothing but a lot of steps.

 

Istanbul is very accessible for a scooter, if you can find transportation. Again, I used a private car and driver and was able to see Hagia Sophia, The Blue Mosque, the Grand Bazaar and Topkapi Palace. While you might not be able to access some of Topkapi, you'll see most of it.

 

Ephesus is another story. I'm quite surprised by the poster who said it's accessible. I did not find that to be at all true, despite the fact that I did go there. It was terribly rough for my scooter as it's paved in broken, rough marble stones that are sand covered and very slippery. And it's pretty much downhill and rough on the back. If I were to be in Ephesus again, I would not take the tour. But you can visit the Ephesus museum which is wonderful.

 

I'm not a fan of Athens because I found it to be a very difficult city with my scooter. While the Parthenon is "accessible", the lift was broken the day I was there. Actually, broken lifts seem to be a very common happening in Europe. What I liked was just scootering around the shopping and dining areas of Athens and that was really a lot of fun.

 

Mykonos was pretty easy to get around. I basically got myself to the town area, found a lovely outdoor cafe and enjoyed the people watching.

 

Naples may be a tender port so again, you might not be able to get off the ship. Just depends on whether you dock or are tendered.

 

Rome is one of my favorite cities. While getting around is challenging, it can be done. I hired a private car and my driver was great. I also made sure to pre-purchase time stamped entry tickets to anyplace that had an admission fee. That way, we showed up to that site and I scootered right in. You will be able to see the Coliseum, Trevi, Pantheon, St Peters and you will be able to scooter by the Spanish Steps and scooter down the famous shopping street right off the Steps.

 

If I might, I have found other places than the ones you list to be more disabled friendly. I've done the Baltic three times and those places are really much more accessible than the Med. Even the Hermitage in St Petersburg is more accessible than most realize. Another itinerary that's great for the disabled is the British Isles. I've done that itinerary four times and hardly had problems.

 

Whatever you decide, don't allow scooter use to dissuade you from traveling. I've traveled literally around the world, and with research and pre-planning, it can be done.

 

One word of warning, while the TravelScoot is a good product, it doesn't have a reverse gear and unless you have use of your legs, you cannot back up on the scooter without using your legs and feet.

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I would respectfully disagree with some of your comments:

 

1. Yes, you CAN do the Parthenon on a scooter. There is a handicap lift in the park that takes you to the top of the rock. It's open air and on the back side of the park.

 

2. Many of the tour buses have a lift--even the Hop on/Hop off buses in the large cities. OP just needs to research which ones and have a plan.

 

3. We did Ephesus with a scooter and it was fine. The main path is well traveled. The rider would need to leave the cart to actually enter the ruins--like the Library of Celsus.

 

4. Most power adapters for scooters will be 120-240 compatible. If not, a standard travel converter will work--plus the ship plugs are 120.

 

5. Trip Advisor is a great resource for pre/post hotels. We found a charming hotel in Rome that was near the subway and had an elevator.

 

Any trip is what you make of it. IMHO working around some physical restrictions shouldn't be a reason to cancel

Sorry if my comments do not agree with yours. As stated, mine were based on my observations of a recent a previous cruise that included all of the places Joyb is planing to go.

Also, as I stated, a great deal of planning and research must be done to get the most out of the trip.

I did not see as many accessible places, sites or transportation as you did. I did see some considerable struggle disembarking from tenders. I did see and hear people discussing what they could do with their friend while they went to some sites. I did overhear some people talk about the inconsiderate tour bus drivers that made their wheelchair bound friend have to wait in the sun as opposed to being able to stay on the bus.

In retrospect, you are correct about the Parthenon. There was a lift, to a spot, where you could sit and look but, you could not get too far from that one spot. A lot of money to sit at the top of a rock?

I am truly happy you found all the resources for your trip and hopefully Joyb will find the same ones. I noticed the same as kitty9 experienced. I never once, in any way, indicated they should cancel.

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This spring, we took my parents to the Med on RCCL's Mariner OTS. My mom has multiple sclerosis and we decided to rent a handicapped scooter for the vacation. It was, without a doubt, the BEST possible decision. We booked private excursions in each port and did 3 extra days in Rome pre/post cruise.

 

The cruise line was very accommodating to all special needs passengers and the ship itself was designed with handicapped travelers in mind. We did not book an accessible room, but we did have a Junior Suite which afforded a little more room to park her cart.

 

Our ports of call were Messina, Athens, Ephesus/Kusadai, Rhodes, Crete and Naples. All of these ports were docking ports. You might challenges in Santorini as it is a tender port.

 

Here are some tips that helped us:

 

1. Carry an extra battery. The cobblestones and hills can really drain the batteries--we used the extra at least 3 times during the cruise.

 

2. Understand that historic places will not be accessible but most will--even the Acropolis has a handicap lift! We only ran into access problems at some of the smaller, less popular churches and ruins.

 

3. Practice using the cart in crowds--All the major cities will be packed with tourists--especially Rome. My mom gets nervous with a lot of people around her so we "warmed up" on side streets before heading into the city center.

 

4. Taxis are your friend. Most cities we took a cab downtown and then walked from there. In every instance the driver was very helpful in setting up the cart and getting it in the trunk. Again, in Rome, the subway and train stations are not all accessible. We learned this the hard way!

 

5. Plan Plan Plan--We did extensive web research on our ports and you'd be surprised at the amount of information that available. We knew exactly which ports were and were not scooter friendly and planned around the challenges

 

One of our travel companions will be traveling with a scooter and we plan a three day stop of Rome before boarding the ship. Were you able to book a scooter in Rome and if so with who. We already book one for the ship.

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One word of warning, while the TravelScoot is a good product, it doesn't have a reverse gear and unless you have use of your legs, you cannot back up on the scooter without using your legs and feet.

 

Yes, agree with the warning on this one. The Travel Scoot has its limitations. We like it because it is light, collapsible, and has a great battery life. Also, the brake can be iffy--especially if it is raining. Everything is a trade off....

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One of our travel companions will be traveling with a scooter and we plan a three day stop of Rome before boarding the ship. Were you able to book a scooter in Rome and if so with who. We already book one for the ship.

 

There are some companies that will deliver one to your hotel. We rented the Travelscoot in the US and took it with us on the plane. That way we could use it at the airport, in the city and on the ship. And it was less expensive than renting on the ship.

 

The Rome airport is large and hard to get through. It was worth it for us to have it.

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Sorry if my comments do not agree with yours. As stated, mine were based on my observations of a recent a previous cruise that included all of the places Joyb is planing to go.

Also, as I stated, a great deal of planning and research must be done to get the most out of the trip.

I did not see as many accessible places, sites or transportation as you did. I did see some considerable struggle disembarking from tenders. I did see and hear people discussing what they could do with their friend while they went to some sites. I did overhear some people talk about the inconsiderate tour bus drivers that made their wheelchair bound friend have to wait in the sun as opposed to being able to stay on the bus.

In retrospect, you are correct about the Parthenon. There was a lift, to a spot, where you could sit and look but, you could not get too far from that one spot. A lot of money to sit at the top of a rock?

I am truly happy you found all the resources for your trip and hopefully Joyb will find the same ones. I noticed the same as kitty9 experienced. I never once, in any way, indicated they should cancel.

 

I would agree with you that the laws in Europe are most definitely not the same as in the US. But they ARE getting better.

 

As you say, it all comes down to planning. My mother has been handicapped for over 20 years and in that time we have traveled extensively with her. In all, I would say that she has been able to experience 85 percent of the attractions that non mobility restricted folks have.

 

As for the Parthenon, we took the scooter all around the site as we were part of a tour. (By the way--Athens Walking Tours is fabulous and they will accommodate folks in scooters). She was able to see everything.

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Everything is a trade off....

 

Very wise and important comment about the various and many "TRADE-OFFS" to consider in doing such travel planning. Lots of options and potentials are available in Europe and with these great ports. In working with private tour providers, the more you share and tell them, then they can give much better advice and options. Don't be afraid to offered details and specifics for what type of experience is sought, personal interests, physical limits and needs, etc.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Back from a June 7-19 Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 53,713 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

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