Blablablab Posted April 19, 2012 #726 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The program on NOVA last night brought up several interesting aspects of ship sinking, among them crew training and ship design. The similarities between Smith on Titanic and Schettino are striking-- they both froze largely because they didn't know what to do. If they had had crew training using emergency and hazard checklists they likely would not have frozen -- they wouldn't have needed to know how to respond because the checklists provide a uniform , practiced response to most emergency situations. That is what is meant when someone states that "your training kicks in" -- you don't need to know the details of your response--all you need to know is how to execute the checklist, and that is why the military and airlines use them frequently for crew training in simulators. Also, because of your periodic training, you have executed the checklist(s) many time, so the checklist actions are routine and familiar. So having the passengers muster before sailing is only one small part of a response to an emergency. Crew training is the other, larger, part. Unfortunately the maritime industry, unlike the airlines and military, do not require such training. NOVA also partially debunked the earlier Discovery program as far as ship design. The Discovery program experts stated that the ships were inherently stable because most of the weight is in the bottom of the hull, pulling the center of mass down. But as the NOVA program showed, as the ships are built up, the center of mass also rises resulting in a greater swing when the ship lists in high wind or during a violent manoever. This could result in the ship heeling over and capsizing more rapidly. The NOVA program also questioned whether the ships were inherently unstable because of their size, but really didn't document why this is so. I tend to agree with Carolyn Spencer-Brown's editorial in January that Concordia was a systemic failure resulting from breakdowns in many areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplmac Posted April 19, 2012 #727 Share Posted April 19, 2012 but i have trained for 30 years going through confined spaces of less than 2 feet on many occasions having to rescue a 14 stone training body. What's '14 stone' in real money? :confused:Some kinda measurement of mass? Volume? What? Can you convert to 21st. Century calibrations, please. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starryuk Posted April 19, 2012 #728 Share Posted April 19, 2012 a stone is a measurement of mass used here in uk. We do try to remember to use kg but... 1 stone = 14lbs 2.2lbs =1kg So a 14 stone body is 196 lbs if I can do my times tables correctly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainmcd Posted April 19, 2012 #729 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Regarding checklists: In the past decade we have enacted ISM requirements and do indeed have contingency checklists that we practice on a weekly basis. If a problem is found during a drill, those checklists are revised, and during audits if an out of date checklist is found, it is a "non-conformity" and you get in trouble. Although training does help, it is never quite like the real thing, but we try to make it as close as possible. I saw the Nova program and thought it was well done, but the shipping industry's navigational problems are a lot different from the airline industry, in that things develop a lot slower and you have more time to think and correct errors. The program on NOVA last night brought up several interesting aspects of ship sinking, among them crew training and ship design. The similarities between Smith on Titanic and Schettino are striking-- they both froze largely because they didn't know what to do. If they had had crew training using emergency and hazard checklists they likely would not have frozen -- they wouldn't have needed to know how to respond because the checklists provide a uniform , practiced response to most emergency situations. That is what is meant when someone states that "your training kicks in" -- you don't need to know the details of your response--all you need to know is how to execute the checklist, and that is why the military and airlines use them frequently for crew training in simulators. Also, because of your periodic training, you have executed the checklist(s) many time, so the checklist actions are routine and familiar. So having the passengers muster before sailing is only one small part of a response to an emergency. Crew training is the other, larger, part. Unfortunately the maritime industry, unlike the airlines and military, do not require such training. NOVA also partially debunked the earlier Discovery program as far as ship design. The Discovery program experts stated that the ships were inherently stable because most of the weight is in the bottom of the hull, pulling the center of mass down. But as the NOVA program showed, as the ships are built up, the center of mass also rises resulting in a greater swing when the ship lists in high wind or during a violent manoever. This could result in the ship heeling over and capsizing more rapidly. The NOVA program also questioned whether the ships were inherently unstable because of their size, but really didn't document why this is so. I tend to agree with Carolyn Spencer-Brown's editorial in January that Concordia was a systemic failure resulting from breakdowns in many areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blablablab Posted April 19, 2012 #730 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Regarding checklists: In the past decade we have enacted ISM requirements and do indeed have contingency checklists that we practice on a weekly basis. If a problem is found during a drill, those checklists are revised, and during audits if an out of date checklist is found, it is a "non-conformity" and you get in trouble. Although training does help, it is never quite like the real thing, but we try to make it as close as possible. I saw the Nova program and thought it was well done, but the shipping industry's navigational problems are a lot different from the airline industry, in that things develop a lot slower and you have more time to think and correct errors. Thanks for the info, captain. I stand corrected. The program also showed a bridge/navigation simulator which can be used for training. My feeling is that a good simulator can mimic the actual emergencies and hazards, providing the actual annunciator panel indications and responses to checklist actions. Granted, not as good as the real thing as you mentioned, but close. Better than the alternatives, which are "winging it" or freezing up, neither of which are going to have a good outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainmcd Posted April 19, 2012 #731 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Regarding bridge simulators, they have been around for nearly 40 years, although simulating a ship at sea is more difficult than an airplane in the air, due to the fact that a ship maneuvers with respect to two mediums, the air (winds) and the sea (current and waves) so that although beneficial, simulator time is probably not as effective as a training tool as it is for aircraft. I have spent time in a number of simulators, and they are getting better, but it is still a lot different when you are on a real bridge. I still can not understand how the Concordia went so badly afoul of existing rules, since Italy has signed on to all the applicable conventions, SOLAS, ISM, ISPS, STCW, all of which are monitored by their class society, flag state, port states, etc. It just shows no matter how many rules and regulations are made, there are ways to get around them, and to just do paperwork to satisfy auditors and inspectors, and not really follow the intent of the regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive and anne Posted April 20, 2012 #732 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Giglio news is reporting that the salvage contract will be awarded to the Italian American consortium,involving Titan, today. Edited April 20, 2012 by clive and anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted April 20, 2012 #733 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Giglio news is reporting that the salvage contract will be awarded to the Italian American consortium,involving Titan, today. Smit was thought to be the frontrunner for the bid. Looks like that isn't the case now. Edited April 20, 2012 by SomeBeach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampire Parrot Posted April 20, 2012 #734 Share Posted April 20, 2012 CaptainMCD said: I still can not understand how the Concordia went so badly afoul of existing rules, since Italy has signed on to all the applicable conventions, SOLAS, ISM, ISPS, STCW, all of which are monitored by their class society, flag state, port states, etc.That is what astonishes the merry hell out of me too. A few years ago, another Carnival Group line, P&O, invested a lot of money & time in implementing a fleet-wide BTCC (Bridge Team Command and Control) system, lead by Captain Ian Walters. Captain Walters spent a year training and coaching P&O bridge teams world-wide in BTCC. Maybe it's for cultural reasons that BTCC hasn't (yet?) been implemented in other Carnival Group lines. If I were a betting man (and I am....) I would bet that the next lines to implement BTCC would be Princess (due to very close operational and historical connections with P&O), then Cunard (P&O and Cunard exchange deck officers - QM2 Captain Kevin Oprey's first command was P&O's Arcadia). But it seems to me that the next line to implement BTCC should be Costa. Because if there are cultural issues - and I hope there aren't - however if there are cultural issues then perhaps Costa would gain the most benefit. VP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidari Posted April 21, 2012 #735 Share Posted April 21, 2012 "Giglio news is reporting that the salvage contract will be awarded to the Italian American consortium,involving Titan, today" So did it happen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive and anne Posted April 21, 2012 #736 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Hope I get this link right as I have never attempted this before. However the article below the webcam states that Costa Crociere has to day announced that Titan and the Italians have been awarded the contract andwork will begin in May and last 12 months. http://www.giglionews.it/2012042158524/news/isola-del-giglio/sara-il-consorzio-titan-micoperi-a-rimuovere-il-relitto.html#comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katkell Posted April 21, 2012 #737 Share Posted April 21, 2012 http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/cruise-ship-to-be-salvaged-in-one-piece/story-e6frfku0-1226335242765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidari Posted April 21, 2012 #738 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Thanks for the links ..... :D though you have to wonder why Smit did not get the contract!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocF Posted April 21, 2012 #739 Share Posted April 21, 2012 This link is from Seatrade Insider, a trade paper's online site. http://www.cruise-community.com/News/News-Headlines/Titan-Micoperi-to-remove-Concordia-in-12-month-operation.html This is as I have been saying for a very long time. Titan is one of the two major marine salvage firms and has a standing contract with Carnival Corp for services. Only they and Smit have the expertise to do this. The hulk will be removed intact. This is as the Italian authorities demanded. Titan has had a wreck master on site since about 24 hours after the capsize. I suspect the righting and raising of the hulk will be a tourist attraction in itself. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Shanks Posted April 21, 2012 #740 Share Posted April 21, 2012 This link is from Seatrade Insider, a trade paper's online site. http://www.cruise-community.com/News/News-Headlines/Titan-Micoperi-to-remove-Concordia-in-12-month-operation.html This is as I have been saying for a very long time. Titan is one of the two major marine salvage firms and has a standing contract with Carnival Corp for services. Only they and Smit have the expertise to do this. The hulk will be removed intact. This is as the Italian authorities demanded. Titan has had a wreck master on site since about 24 hours after the capsize. I suspect the righting and raising of the hulk will be a tourist attraction in itself. Doc What will they do with it once they've refloated it and once it's back in the dry dock? Will it be repaired? Only half of the ship is extensively damaged and all though it will have suffered from rust, I'm not sure if it would be terminal and if it isn't, surely it would be cost effective to restore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubicondsrv Posted April 22, 2012 #741 Share Posted April 22, 2012 What will they do with it once they've refloated it and once it's back in the dry dock? Will it be repaired? Only half of the ship is extensively damaged and all though it will have suffered from rust, I'm not sure if it would be terminal and if it isn't, surely it would be cost effective to restore it? Once it is stripped of items not belonging to the insurer, it will be sold at auction to the highest bidder. Most likely the hulk will then be stripped of usable parts and scrapped, there is no reason it wold not be possible to rebuild, but it is most likely uneconomical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka's Skipper Posted April 22, 2012 #742 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Once it is stripped of items not belonging to the insurer, it will be sold at auction to the highest bidder. Most likely the hulk will then be stripped of usable parts and scrapped, there is no reason it wold not be possible to rebuild, but it is most likely uneconomical. I totally agree, that is the bottom line.,the costs to rebuild the wreck will likely go far beyond building a new ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alita Posted April 25, 2012 #743 Share Posted April 25, 2012 http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/coast-chief-falls-on-sword-following-concordia-disaster/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidari Posted April 25, 2012 #744 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Alita .. sorry but its old news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted May 8, 2012 #745 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Let's do it again. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/come-closer-again-we-love-you-tourism-chiefs-tell-cruise-lines-20120507-1y92o.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted May 8, 2012 #746 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Foschi says its never been better. http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/business-its-never-been-better-says-costa-cruise-line-boss-pier-luigi-foschi-7720679.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted May 8, 2012 #747 Share Posted May 8, 2012 i'm just back from a trans atlantic on the rci grandeur. i saw a sign posted in 2 places: door to bridge and door to crew quarters. the sign said allowing entry beyond this door by any non crew member is an offense punishable by immediate dismissal. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratt Posted May 8, 2012 #748 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Foschi says its never been better. http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/business-its-never-been-better-says-costa-cruise-line-boss-pier-luigi-foschi-7720679.html Thanks for posting. What I find interesting about the article is not the article itself (I've always felt that the numbers would rebound) but that the writer seems to not believe that Costa is doing okay and is on it's way to returning to pre Concoridia numbers. After looking at the writers other pieces it appears that he tends to write negative stories rather than positive ones. Of course we all know that positive stories aren't as popular as the negative ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka's Skipper Posted May 8, 2012 #749 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Foschi says its never been better. http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/business-its-never-been-better-says-costa-cruise-line-boss-pier-luigi-foschi-7720679.html I am very happy to see the new passinger safety training. The alarm ashore is for show..qiute usless as no one in the office can understand what is happening on the ship at that tim. I a emergency the Bridge watch would not have time to explain......so fluff. The Deck Officers have always had the right to inform the captiain of the vessel going into danger.The ones on the concordia just ddn't do that...so again the *question* the Masters orders is fluff. As to bookings going up that is a good thing and after 4 months it should start going up. While I would not take Mr. Foschi statements are face value........he is doing what needs to be done..........talk up the line.......new changes in operations and safety..........show Costa is still a good and safe line to cruise on. I wish the line well!.but we will see when the trials start and the officval cuase reports come out. AKK Edited May 8, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted May 17, 2012 #750 Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) The Appeals Court in Italy speaks. http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Italy+court+rules+Concordia+cruise+ship+captain+unfit+command/6631417/story.html ROME - Italy's top appeals court ruled on Wednesday that Francesco Schettino, the captain of the Costa Concordia, was unfit to command the cruise liner which ran aground and capsized off the Tuscan island of Giglio in January, causing at least 30 deaths. In a written explanation of its decision to maintain a house arrest order against Schettino, the Court of Cassation said he had shown "little resilience in performing command functions or in handling responsibility for the safety of persons under his care." Schettino has been accused of wrecking the 114,500 metric tons (126,215 tons) liner by bringing it too close to shore, where a rocky ledge tore a gash in its side and made it keel over and sink. Investigators also accuse Schettino of delaying evacuation and losing control of the operation, during which he abandoned ship before all 4,200 passengers and crew had been taken off the vessel. He has been charged with multiple manslaughter, causing the accident and abandoning ship prematurely. A pre-trial hearing was held in Grosseto, near Florence, in March. The Court of Cassation said Schettino had shown himself unable to manage a crisis and to ensure the safety of his passengers and crew and said there would be a risk of a repeat of the disaster if he were given a command again. That part of the ruling justified the decision to keep Schettino under house arrest at his home in Meta di Sorrento, near Naples in southern Italy, as a concrete danger of a recurrence must be shown for the arrest order to be upheld. Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Italy+court+rules+Concordia+cruise+ship+captain+unfit+command/6631417/story.html#ixzz1v5vYdh1W Edited May 17, 2012 by SomeBeach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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