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Concordia News: Please Post Here

kingcruiser1

By kingcruiser1,
in Costa Cruises

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Blablablab

Blablablab

Posted
Posted

The program on NOVA last night brought up several interesting aspects of ship sinking, among them crew training and ship design. The similarities between Smith on Titanic and Schettino are striking-- they both froze largely because they didn't know what to do. If they had had crew training using emergency and hazard checklists they likely would not have frozen -- they wouldn't have needed to know how to respond because the checklists provide a uniform , practiced response to most emergency situations. That is what is meant when someone states that "your training kicks in" -- you don't need to know the details of your response--all you need to know is how to execute the checklist, and that is why the military and airlines use them frequently for crew training in simulators. Also, because of your periodic training, you have executed the checklist(s) many time, so the checklist actions are routine and familiar. So having the passengers muster before sailing is only one small part of a response to an emergency. Crew training is the other, larger, part. Unfortunately the maritime industry, unlike the airlines and military, do not require such training.

 

NOVA also partially debunked the earlier Discovery program as far as ship design. The Discovery program experts stated that the ships were inherently stable because most of the weight is in the bottom of the hull, pulling the center of mass down. But as the NOVA program showed, as the ships are built up, the center of mass also rises resulting in a greater swing when the ship lists in high wind or during a violent manoever. This could result in the ship heeling over and capsizing more rapidly. The NOVA program also questioned whether the ships were inherently unstable because of their size, but really didn't document why this is so.

 

I tend to agree with Carolyn Spencer-Brown's editorial in January that Concordia was a systemic failure resulting from breakdowns in many areas.

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Aplmac

Aplmac

Posted
Posted
but i have trained for 30 years going through confined spaces of less than 2 feet

on many occasions having to rescue a 14 stone training body.

What's '14 stone' in real money? :confused:

Some kinda measurement of mass? Volume? What?

 

Can you convert to 21st. Century calibrations, please.

.

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captainmcd

captainmcd

Posted
Posted

Regarding checklists: In the past decade we have enacted ISM requirements and do indeed have contingency checklists that we practice on a weekly basis. If a problem is found during a drill, those checklists are revised, and during audits if an out of date checklist is found, it is a "non-conformity" and you get in trouble. Although training does help, it is never quite like the real thing, but we try to make it as close as possible. I saw the Nova program and thought it was well done, but the shipping industry's navigational problems are a lot different from the airline industry, in that things develop a lot slower and you have more time to think and correct errors.

The program on NOVA last night brought up several interesting aspects of ship sinking, among them crew training and ship design. The similarities between Smith on Titanic and Schettino are striking-- they both froze largely because they didn't know what to do. If they had had crew training using emergency and hazard checklists they likely would not have frozen -- they wouldn't have needed to know how to respond because the checklists provide a uniform , practiced response to most emergency situations. That is what is meant when someone states that "your training kicks in" -- you don't need to know the details of your response--all you need to know is how to execute the checklist, and that is why the military and airlines use them frequently for crew training in simulators. Also, because of your periodic training, you have executed the checklist(s) many time, so the checklist actions are routine and familiar. So having the passengers muster before sailing is only one small part of a response to an emergency. Crew training is the other, larger, part. Unfortunately the maritime industry, unlike the airlines and military, do not require such training.

 

NOVA also partially debunked the earlier Discovery program as far as ship design. The Discovery program experts stated that the ships were inherently stable because most of the weight is in the bottom of the hull, pulling the center of mass down. But as the NOVA program showed, as the ships are built up, the center of mass also rises resulting in a greater swing when the ship lists in high wind or during a violent manoever. This could result in the ship heeling over and capsizing more rapidly. The NOVA program also questioned whether the ships were inherently unstable because of their size, but really didn't document why this is so.

 

I tend to agree with Carolyn Spencer-Brown's editorial in January that Concordia was a systemic failure resulting from breakdowns in many areas.

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Blablablab

Blablablab

Posted
Posted
Regarding checklists: In the past decade we have enacted ISM requirements and do indeed have contingency checklists that we practice on a weekly basis. If a problem is found during a drill, those checklists are revised, and during audits if an out of date checklist is found, it is a "non-conformity" and you get in trouble. Although training does help, it is never quite like the real thing, but we try to make it as close as possible. I saw the Nova program and thought it was well done, but the shipping industry's navigational problems are a lot different from the airline industry, in that things develop a lot slower and you have more time to think and correct errors.

 

Thanks for the info, captain. I stand corrected. The program also showed a bridge/navigation simulator which can be used for training. My feeling is that a good simulator can mimic the actual emergencies and hazards, providing the actual annunciator panel indications and responses to checklist actions. Granted, not as good as the real thing as you mentioned, but close. Better than the alternatives, which are "winging it" or freezing up, neither of which are going to have a good outcome.

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captainmcd

captainmcd

Posted
Posted

Regarding bridge simulators, they have been around for nearly 40 years, although simulating a ship at sea is more difficult than an airplane in the air, due to the fact that a ship maneuvers with respect to two mediums, the air (winds) and the sea (current and waves) so that although beneficial, simulator time is probably not as effective as a training tool as it is for aircraft. I have spent time in a number of simulators, and they are getting better, but it is still a lot different when you are on a real bridge.

 

I still can not understand how the Concordia went so badly afoul of existing rules, since Italy has signed on to all the applicable conventions, SOLAS, ISM, ISPS, STCW, all of which are monitored by their class society, flag state, port states, etc. It just shows no matter how many rules and regulations are made, there are ways to get around them, and to just do paperwork to satisfy auditors and inspectors, and not really follow the intent of the regulations.

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SomeBeach

SomeBeach

Posted
Posted (edited)
Giglio news is reporting that the salvage contract will be awarded to the Italian American consortium,involving Titan, today.

 

Smit was thought to be the frontrunner for the bid. Looks like that isn't the case now.

Edited by SomeBeach
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Vampire Parrot

Vampire Parrot

Posted
Posted

CaptainMCD said:

I still can not understand how the Concordia went so badly afoul of existing rules, since Italy has signed on to all the applicable conventions, SOLAS, ISM, ISPS, STCW, all of which are monitored by their class society, flag state, port states, etc.
That is what astonishes the merry hell out of me too. A few years ago, another Carnival Group line, P&O, invested a lot of money & time in implementing a fleet-wide BTCC (Bridge Team Command and Control) system, lead by Captain Ian Walters. Captain Walters spent a year training and coaching P&O bridge teams world-wide in BTCC.

 

Maybe it's for cultural reasons that BTCC hasn't (yet?) been implemented in other Carnival Group lines. If I were a betting man (and I am....) I would bet that the next lines to implement BTCC would be Princess (due to very close operational and historical connections with P&O), then Cunard (P&O and Cunard exchange deck officers - QM2 Captain Kevin Oprey's first command was P&O's Arcadia).

 

But it seems to me that the next line to implement BTCC should be Costa. Because if there are cultural issues - and I hope there aren't - however if there are cultural issues then perhaps Costa would gain the most benefit.

 

VP

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clive and anne

clive and anne

Posted
Posted

Hope I get this link right as I have never attempted this before.

However the article below the webcam states that Costa Crociere has to day announced that Titan and the Italians have been awarded the contract andwork will begin in May and last 12 months.

 

http://www.giglionews.it/2012042158524/news/isola-del-giglio/sara-il-consorzio-titan-micoperi-a-rimuovere-il-relitto.html#comments

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DocF

DocF

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This link is from Seatrade Insider, a trade paper's online site.

 

http://www.cruise-community.com/News/News-Headlines/Titan-Micoperi-to-remove-Concordia-in-12-month-operation.html

 

This is as I have been saying for a very long time. Titan is one of the two major marine salvage firms and has a standing contract with Carnival Corp for services. Only they and Smit have the expertise to do this.

 

The hulk will be removed intact. This is as the Italian authorities demanded.

 

Titan has had a wreck master on site since about 24 hours after the capsize.

 

I suspect the righting and raising of the hulk will be a tourist attraction in itself.

 

Doc

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Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks

Posted
Posted
This link is from Seatrade Insider, a trade paper's online site.

 

http://www.cruise-community.com/News/News-Headlines/Titan-Micoperi-to-remove-Concordia-in-12-month-operation.html

 

This is as I have been saying for a very long time. Titan is one of the two major marine salvage firms and has a standing contract with Carnival Corp for services. Only they and Smit have the expertise to do this.

 

The hulk will be removed intact. This is as the Italian authorities demanded.

 

Titan has had a wreck master on site since about 24 hours after the capsize.

 

I suspect the righting and raising of the hulk will be a tourist attraction in itself.

 

Doc

 

What will they do with it once they've refloated it and once it's back in the dry dock? Will it be repaired?

 

Only half of the ship is extensively damaged and all though it will have suffered from rust, I'm not sure if it would be terminal and if it isn't, surely it would be cost effective to restore it?

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rubicondsrv

rubicondsrv

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Posted
What will they do with it once they've refloated it and once it's back in the dry dock? Will it be repaired?

 

Only half of the ship is extensively damaged and all though it will have suffered from rust, I'm not sure if it would be terminal and if it isn't, surely it would be cost effective to restore it?

 

Once it is stripped of items not belonging to the insurer, it will be sold at auction to the highest bidder.

 

Most likely the hulk will then be stripped of usable parts and scrapped, there is no reason it wold not be possible to rebuild, but it is most likely uneconomical.

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Tonka's Skipper

Tonka's Skipper

Posted
Posted
Once it is stripped of items not belonging to the insurer, it will be sold at auction to the highest bidder.

 

Most likely the hulk will then be stripped of usable parts and scrapped, there is no reason it wold not be possible to rebuild, but it is most likely uneconomical.

 

 

I totally agree, that is the bottom line.,the costs to rebuild the wreck will likely go far beyond building a new ship.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Uniall

Uniall

Posted
Posted

i'm just back from a trans atlantic on the rci grandeur. i saw a sign posted in 2 places: door to bridge and door to crew quarters. the sign said allowing entry beyond this door by any non crew member is an offense punishable by immediate dismissal.

 

john

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Ratt

Ratt

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Posted

 

Thanks for posting.

 

What I find interesting about the article is not the article itself (I've always felt that the numbers would rebound) but that the writer seems to not believe that Costa is doing okay and is on it's way to returning to pre Concoridia numbers. After looking at the writers other pieces it appears that he tends to write negative stories rather than positive ones.

 

Of course we all know that positive stories aren't as popular as the negative ones.

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Tonka's Skipper

Tonka's Skipper

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

 

I am very happy to see the new passinger safety training. The alarm ashore is for show..qiute usless as no one in the office can understand what is happening on the ship at that tim. I a emergency the Bridge watch would not have time to explain......so fluff.

 

The Deck Officers have always had the right to inform the captiain of the vessel going into danger.The ones on the concordia just ddn't do that...so again the *question* the Masters orders is fluff.

 

As to bookings going up that is a good thing and after 4 months it should start going up.

 

While I would not take Mr. Foschi statements are face value........he is doing what needs to be done..........talk up the line.......new changes in operations and safety..........show Costa is still a good and safe line to cruise on.

 

 

I wish the line well!.but we will see when the trials start and the officval cuase reports come out.

 

 

AKK

Edited by Tonka's Skipper
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  • 2 weeks later...
SomeBeach

SomeBeach

Posted
Posted (edited)

The Appeals Court in Italy speaks.

 

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Italy+court+rules+Concordia+cruise+ship+captain+unfit+command/6631417/story.html

 

 

ROME - Italy's top appeals court ruled on Wednesday that Francesco Schettino, the captain of the Costa Concordia, was unfit to command the cruise liner which ran aground and capsized off the Tuscan island of Giglio in January, causing at least 30 deaths.

 

In a written explanation of its decision to maintain a house arrest order against Schettino, the Court of Cassation said he had shown "little resilience in performing command functions or in handling responsibility for the safety of persons under his care."

 

Schettino has been accused of wrecking the 114,500 metric tons (126,215 tons) liner by bringing it too close to shore, where a rocky ledge tore a gash in its side and made it keel over and sink.

 

Investigators also accuse Schettino of delaying evacuation and losing control of the operation, during which he abandoned ship before all 4,200 passengers and crew had been taken off the vessel.

 

He has been charged with multiple manslaughter, causing the accident and abandoning ship prematurely. A pre-trial hearing was held in Grosseto, near Florence, in March.

 

The Court of Cassation said Schettino had shown himself unable to manage a crisis and to ensure the safety of his passengers and crew and said there would be a risk of a repeat of the disaster if he were given a command again.

 

That part of the ruling justified the decision to keep Schettino under house arrest at his home in Meta di Sorrento, near Naples in southern Italy, as a concrete danger of a recurrence must be shown for the arrest order to be upheld.

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Italy+court+rules+Concordia+cruise+ship+captain+unfit+command/6631417/story.html#ixzz1v5vYdh1W

Edited by SomeBeach
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