Concordia News: Please Post Here

[rubicondsrv]

How does this claim of "power loss" make any difference, even if he lost power, he was far too close to the rocks to start with, plus, the AIS track would show substantial drop in speed if power was lost, it didn't.

 

He had no business being that close to shore going that fast and without tugs, that is the main point of negligence.

[SomeBeach]

The media brings up safety again.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-29/travel/sns-201205290000--tms--traveltrctntt-b20120529-20120529_1_kendall-carver-cruise-vessel-security-international-cruise-victims-association

 

The article is about more than the Concordia but I still thought it should be shared here.

[sidari]

Morgan .... In the coastguard video from the Helicopter Concordia is lay on its Starboard side, you can see the whole bottom of the Keel (which is what i should have said to avoid confusion) which is what i thought you were talking about when you say the "ships bottom impacted" in a previous post so i take it you meant the Hull side below the waterline where the Gash and Rock are.

 

When the Helicopter goes around by the Bow you can clearly see the Bow thrusters and the bulbous bow out of the water, unlike now in its current position.

 

I was not referring to the Gash in the Hull port side, as for the Graphic re the reef 4 miles out i had not seen that before it appeared on the Salute site.

[Uniall]

The media brings up safety again.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-29/travel/sns-201205290000--tms--traveltrctntt-b20120529-20120529_1_kendall-carver-cruise-vessel-security-international-cruise-victims-association

 

The article is about more than the Concordia but I still thought it should be shared here.

 

Micki

 

Excellent article. As I mentioned before, the Chicago Tribune has become a mere shaddow of its former glory (including a now gone daily European edition). It's staff has been reduced to the point where 90% of the articles are now written by independent correspondents not employees..

 

But, in this case the writter is Chris Elliott, an inter-nationally resepected Travel Writer whose work is publihed in multiple sources inlcuding Budget Travel Magazine and BufgetTravel.com.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

John

[balf]

After all it would enhance their claims should it be found that Concordia had been having electrical Blackouts that were known to exist.

 

 

Only if it was proved that there had been a blackout before the incident, which seems to be unlikely according to passengers who were aboard.

 

David.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Morgan .... In the coastguard video from the Helicopter Concordia is lay on its Starboard side, you can see the whole bottom of the Keel (which is what i should have said to avoid confusion) which is what i thought you were talking about when you say the "ships bottom impacted" in a previous post so i take it you meant the Hull side below the waterline where the Gash and Rock are.

 

When the Helicopter goes around by the Bow you can clearly see the Bow thrusters and the bulbous bow out of the water, unlike now in its current position.

 

I was not referring to the Gash in the Hull port side, as for the Graphic re the reef 4 miles out i had not seen that before it appeared on the Salute site.

 

 

 

 

Ok then..my error as well.I was referring to the whole bottom, not just the port side/bilge keel area.

 

AKK

[Tonka's Skipper]

The media brings up safety again.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-29/travel/sns-201205290000--tms--traveltrctntt-b20120529-20120529_1_kendall-carver-cruise-vessel-security-international-cruise-victims-association

 

The article is about more than the Concordia but I still thought it should be shared here.

 

 

 

Seems there is alot of holes in cruise ship safety............AKK

[Tonka's Skipper]

How does this claim of "power loss" make any difference, even if he lost power, he was far too close to the rocks to start with, plus, the AIS track would show substantial drop in speed if power was lost, it didn't.

 

He had no business being that close to shore going that fast and without tugs, that is the main point of negligence.

 

 

Tugs would not have made any difference, you had it right at the start..............*he had no business being that close and going that fast*.......

 

I would still like to get a *factual* account of just what was going on, on that bridge/navigation watch for the 30 minutes before the crash!

 

1. Where there visitors on the bridge?

 

2. Was the Captian not paying attention to his postion/navigation. talking?....being a social Captain to guests?

 

3. What was the Officer on watch/duty doing in those 30 minutes? Did the watch officer advise the Captain that the vessel getting close to the danger?

[MorganMars]

Ok, I guess definitions are in order. To me, on a ships hull, anything below the waterline is "bottom."

 

Regards,

Morgan Mars

 

Morgan .... In the coastguard video from the Helicopter Concordia is lay on its Starboard side, you can see the whole bottom of the Keel (which is what i should have said to avoid confusion) which is what i thought you were talking about when you say the "ships bottom impacted" in a previous post so i take it you meant the Hull side below the waterline where the Gash and Rock are.

 

When the Helicopter goes around by the Bow you can clearly see the Bow thrusters and the bulbous bow out of the water, unlike now in its current position.

 

I was not referring to the Gash in the Hull port side, as for the Graphic re the reef 4 miles out i had not seen that before it appeared on the Salute site.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Ok, I guess definitions are in order. To me, on a ships hull, anything below the waterline is "bottom."

 

Regards,

Morgan Mars

 

 

 

Ahh.the wonderful world of nautical terms..........ask 20 seaman the name of something regarding a vessel and your likely to get 5 or 6 terms!

 

On a rounded hull, anything below the waterline is usually called the bottom, EI a boat hull.

 

On a ship, since the sides are often vertical to the deepest or near deepest part of the hull, the sides are still the hull but called the sides of the hull, port or staboard.

 

The bottom of the vessel is usually the horizontal bottom.

 

AKK

[sidari]

"The bottom of the vessel is usually the horizontal bottom."

 

Tonka ... This is what i would also call the Bottom, anything above that i class as the Hull.

 

"3. What was the Officer on watch/duty doing in those 30 minutes? Did the watch officer advise the Captain that the vessel getting close to the danger? "

 

That part seems to be a mystery so far with no information released as yet apart from the Media guessing game.

 

 

Morgan .... I hope this clears up any misunderstanding between our posts.

[DocF]

The big hole is in what we called on sail boats the turn of the bilge. That is, where the side of the hull meets the bottom of the hull.

 

Lots of activity again today. There appears to be some sort of barge-like craft very near the hulk. It is low-slung and is difficult to visualize from the Giglio web cam. I notice also there is now a fair sized crane on one of the quays in the port.

 

Doc

 

PS: Let us all stay on our good behavior and be kind to one and other. We have all been playing well with others for the last several days.

[Uniall]

.............

Doc

 

PS: Let us all stay on our good behavior and be kind to one and other. We have all been playing well with others for the last several days.

 

Doc,

 

I hope you're correct.

 

For the last several days, most, if not all the posts, have been about maritime salvage activities. Those of us who are not interested in such discussion but concentrate primarily on the parties responsible for the collision, do not voice objections to posts regarding salvage.

 

The real test will be when we post a new developement regarding the civil and criminal court cases. Then, we'll see if those of us who believe the Captain and corporate officers should do jail time are sujected to more personal attacks for our posts and opinions.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Uniall

[MorganMars]

Yep, confusion banished.;)

 

"The bottom of the vessel is usually the horizontal bottom."

 

Tonka ... This is what i would also call the Bottom, anything above that i class as the Hull.

 

"3. What was the Officer on watch/duty doing in those 30 minutes? Did the watch officer advise the Captain that the vessel getting close to the danger? "

 

That part seems to be a mystery so far with no information released as yet apart from the Media guessing game.

 

 

Morgan .... I hope this clears up any misunderstanding between our posts.

[DocF]

Doc,

 

I hope you're correct.

 

For the last several days, most, if not all the posts, have been about maritime salvage activities. Those of us who are not interested in such discussion but concentrate primarily on the parties responsible for the collision, do not voice objections to posts regarding salvage.

 

The real test will be when we post a new developement regarding the civil and criminal court cases. Then, we'll see if those of us who believe the Captain and corporate officers should do jail time are sujected to more personal attacks for our posts and opinions.

 

Well, I stand behind no one in my contempt for a ship's captain who abandons his ship when the passengers are still trying to get off. Remember the S.S. Flying Enterprise sinking in 1951? I do and I admire Captain Henrik Kurt Carlsen, its skipper, for sticking with the ship until literally minutes before it sank. That is the real attitude of a real seaman.

 

Pinning blame on the company will be much more difficult. Look at the legal labyrinth in this case. We have an International crew with Italian officers manning a ship owned by an Italian subsidiary of a U.S. company whose main owners are Israelis and that ship was registered in Panama. That makes determining jurisdiction difficult to say the least. Unless one is an international maritime attorney, one can only speculate and that is little better than guessing.

 

In my opinion, the Captain should be hoisted from the highest yardarm in the fleet. Certainly, both Costa and Carnival have some responsibility for putting him in a position of trust when he ultimately proved to be a craven coward. I just am not sure how effective any effort to punish the corporations will be. It may be like trying to nail Jello to the mizzen mast.

 

Doc

Edited June 2, 2012 by DocF

[Uniall]

Well, I stand behind no one in my contempt for a ship's captain who abandons his ship when the passengers are still trying to get off. Remember the S.S. Flying Enterprise sinking in 1951? I do and I admire Captain Henrik Kurt Carlsen, its skipper, for sticking with the ship until literally minutes before it sank. That is the real attitude of a real seaman.

 

Pinning blame on the company will be much more difficult. Look at the legal labyrinth in this case. We have an International crew with Italian officers manning a ship owned by an Italian subsidiary of a U.S. company whose main owners are Israelis and that ship was registered in Panama. That makes determining jurisdiction difficult to say the least. Unless one is an international maritime attorney, one can only speculate and that is little better than guessing.

 

In my opinion, the Captain should be hoisted from the highest yardarm in the fleet. Certainly, both Costa and Carnival have some responsibility for putting him in a position of trust when he ultimately proved to be a craven coward. I just am not sure how effective any effort to punish the corporations will be. It may be like trying to nail Jello to the mizzen mast.

 

Doc

 

Actually, Italian law may be the most dangerous place for coporate honchos, since it goes to extremes in merging civil and criminal conduct into the same bath.

 

The most damning fact that emerged against them is their apparent "previous knowledge, condonation and approval of sail by salutes". Once it's imparted to the top office, Italain law can impute the knowledge to the higher ups (they knew or should have known if they were doing their job as required by law) It's similar to "dereliction of duty" required of the Captain.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Uniall

[Ratt]

Actually, Italian law may be the most dangerous place for coporate honchos, since it goes to extremes in merging civil and criminal conduct into the same bath.

 

The most damning fact that emerged against them is their apparent "previous knowledge, condonation and approval of sail by salutes". Once it's imparted to the top office, Italain law can impute the knowledge to the higher ups (they knew or should have known if they were doing their job as required by law) It's similar to "dereliction of duty" required of the Captain.

 

We know that "sail by salutes" have been done prier to the Concordia accident and it has been reported that upper management was not only aware of said activity but approved of it. I don't remember where I read it but I remember reading that the approved "sail by salutes" where conducted under very strict parameters including much slower speeds then that of the Concordia the night of the accident.

 

If it's proofed that the captain was not following the approved parameters while conducting the "sail by salute", I find it hard to believe that management would be held responsible for his actions. Of course this is just my opinion and I have NO knowledge of Italian law.

 

How does Italian law deal with management of foreign corporations? If they charge them with a crime but they refuse to show up what can they do?

[Uniall]

We know that "sail by salutes" have been done prier to the Concordia accident and it has been reported that upper management was not only aware of said activity but approved of it. I don't remember where I read it but I remember reading that the approved "sail by salutes" where conducted under very strict parameters including much slower speeds then that of the Concordia the night of the accident.

 

If it's proofed that the captain was not following the approved parameters while conducting the "sail by salute", I find it hard to believe that management would be held responsible for his actions. Of course this is just my opinion and I have NO knowledge of Italian law.

 

How does Italian law deal with management of foreign corporations? If they charge them with a crime but they refuse to show up what can they do?

 

The Italian law would not focus on the the foreign corporation, it would focus on the officers who comitted the acts or made decisions IN Italy (their citizenship is a plus but not necessary). Their law can find criminal culpability for negligent acts that cause great bodily harm or death or heavy damage to property IF there was a duty to prevent those injuries, death, or damage. It's similar to the US criminal acts of gross negligence or reckless disregard conduct but has a lower threshold standard.

 

If the Italian court determined that a cruise line has an affirmative duty to prevent great bodily harm or death to passengers and crew and knew of prior sail by salutes and approved or condoned them (even tacitly by inaction?) they could be held criminally liable for allowing the Captain to do so but that doens't get the Captain off the hook.

[sidari]

* Costa's European Recovery Continues

June 1 - We've reported that Costa's booking activity was returning to normal in Italy and Europe after a severe slump caused by both the constant adverse publicity surrounding the Costa Concordia accident and the line's cessation of marketing.

The return to more normal levels of activity began even before the line restarted their marketing. Now with new marketing programs in place, bookings are flooding in for this winter. As tangible proof, the line is adding capacity in the Mediterranean and Dubai/UAE programs

 

 

http://www.cruisenewsdaily.com/

[CtheW0rld]

* Costa's European Recovery Continues

June 1 - We've reported that Costa's booking activity was returning to normal in Italy and Europe after a severe slump caused by both the constant adverse publicity surrounding the Costa Concordia accident and the line's cessation of marketing.

The return to more normal levels of activity began even before the line restarted their marketing. Now with new marketing programs in place, bookings are flooding in for this winter. As tangible proof, the line is adding capacity in the Mediterranean and Dubai/UAE programs

 

 

http://www.cruisenewsdaily.com/

 

'flooding in' is an unfortunate choice of words :eek:

 

yes, they may be getting bookings, but the discounts are pretty high. the mediterranea's first 2 caribbean sailings are 89% off. i saw somne hefty discounts in the med, too.

 

i do think it is just a matter of time so they can rebuild their reputation. the public has a short memory.

 

the concordia disaster did not affect my decision at all - that was the captain's fault.

[sidari]

"flooding in' is an unfortunate choice of words "

 

Yes have to agree with you there, at least it was not from costa themselves .... :)

 

whatever the discounts it is clearly bringing in people to their ships.

[DocF]

I feel certain that the wrecking of the Costa Concordia will be in the courts for a very long time. When the Eastland capsized in the Chicago River in 1915, the court cases dragged on and on. The major decisions were reached in 1935. The cases were finally concluded in 1977. This was a wreck with quite clearly defined responsibilities and causes. The jurisdiction was all in the same federal court in Grand Rapids, MI. Only U.S. maritime law was involved and it still took forever to reach its conclusion.

 

I agree that the Italian officers and the corporate officers of Costa may be in a position for swift, sure punishment as the Italian courts are going to exercise their authority.

 

Doc

Edited June 2, 2012 by DocF

[DocF]

The activity around the hulk seems to be continuing to ramp up to a higher level. The drill barge (or boat) that is setting the pilings is now in a more visible position. There are more smaller boats doing other things visible.

 

For those who might care to see the activity, the Giglio web cam provides close to a front row seat.

 

http://www.giglionews.it/2010022440919/webcam/isola-del-giglio/webcam-giglio-porto-panoramica.html

 

Doc

[RuthlessBoss]

The activity around the hulk seems to be continuing to ramp up to a higher level. The drill barge (or boat) that is setting the pilings is now in a more visible position. There are more smaller boats doing other things visible.

 

For those who might care to see the activity, the Giglio web cam provides close to a front row seat.

 

http://www.giglionews.it/2010022440919/webcam/isola-del-giglio/webcam-giglio-porto-panoramica.html

 

Doc

I've got that in my favorites list. For a closer look, go to The Last Salute.

[Ply474]

The activity around the hulk seems to be continuing to ramp up to a higher level. The drill barge (or boat) that is setting the pilings is now in a more visible position. There are more smaller boats doing other things visible.

 

For those who might care to see the activity, the Giglio web cam provides close to a front row seat.

 

http://www.giglionews.it/2010022440919/webcam/isola-del-giglio/webcam-giglio-porto-panoramica.html

 

Doc

 

Its going to be very interesting to see them raise this liner, I have been checking in on all the updates here and the web cam. Thanks for posting!