Concordia News: Please Post Here

[DocF]

Some of the folks here, for sure, post irrelevant, ignorant stuff. Most people are just inquiring about things, like you.

 

Discussion boards as a whole seem to generate nastiness in some people and there is a lot of that in this thread, most of it from and directed to the same individual. I suggest you ignore that as there is some good information in this thread, including comments from several survivors of the wreck.

 

There are also a lot of posts from people who actually are knowledgeable regarding this incident and marine salvage in general, so that is valuable.

 

On a positive note, I saw a lot of work being done on the hulk today. It is all still preparatory work, but there is definitely progress being made.

 

Doc

[Uniall]

WOW! Such angry people on this board huh? I came here to see if there was information on the ship as the original thread suggested, and instead I find a bunch of people at each other's throats when not one of you knows the truth one way or the other!

 

Who gives a rat's behind if the electric went out first? Who care's if the Captain was a dirt bag? Let the courts decide! With a few exceptions, none of this affected any of you, and I dare say you people are taking this way to seriously!

 

It's a horror story no doubt, but attacking each other on a message board when not a single one of you knows the reality (other than those who were there) is just lidicrous!

 

I'm sorry people died, it's a tragedy. But I'm pretty sure, if these people had their lives back again, they would not waste it insulting other people and acting like know it all's in a chat room. Damn people, if for nothing else, go get a life, like the one's these poor people lost. If this is all you have to do with yourself, you dishonor those people big time. Just sayin.

 

By your own admission you know nothing. Don't transfer to others, your inability to research the learnable facts and apply reason and logic to ascertain who was at fault and who should be punished.

 

You accuse others of taking this tragedy way to seriously. I believe we have a duty to society to take it seriously in order to demand justice for the lives lost and regulations to prevent a recurrence. You on the other hand recommend "get a life" (self absorbed, no doubt) rather than shouldering the duties of a citizen. If it hadn't been for the public outcry after the Titanic, the changes in maritime law and regulations would have been a lot less.

 

One of the things I've learned from this tragedy is in case of an emergency, I will go to my muster station prepared to claw and fight my way to safety and God help anyone who tries to stop me.

 

You are't "just sayin" your pontificating but from a postion of self imposed ignorance.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Uniall

[Tonka's Skipper]

Some of the folks here, for sure, post irrelevant, ignorant stuff. Most people are just inquiring about things, like you.

 

Discussion boards as a whole seem to generate nastiness in some people and there is a lot of that in this thread, most of it from and directed to the same individual. I suggest you ignore that as there is some good information in this thread, including comments from several survivors of the wreck.

 

There are also a lot of posts from people who actually are knowledgeable regarding this incident and marine salvage in general, so that is valuable.

 

On a positive note, I saw a lot of work being done on the hulk today. It is all still preparatory work, but there is definitely progress being made.

 

Doc

 

 

Morning Doc,

 

 

Seems alot of the work in inshore of the wreck.........in the area where the *tie backs* are to be built.

 

I am sure alot of work is going on behind the scenes as well......some yard somewhere is biulding the tanks for the ships sides, the underwater support framework, etc.........

 

Tugs, barges, other floating craft being prepared, loaded and soon to be on their way to the site.

 

AKK

Edited May 29, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper

[Anjjmum0294]

By your own admission you know nothing. Don't transfer to others, your inability to research the learnable facts and apply reason and logic to ascertain who was at fault and who should be punished.

 

You accuse others of taking this tragedy way to seriously. I believe we have a duty to society to take it seriously in order to demand justice for the lives lost and regulations to prevent a recurrence. You on the other hand recommend "get a life" (self absorbed, no doubt) rather than shouldering the duties of a citizen. If it hadn't been for the public outcry after the Titanic, the changes in maritime law and regulations would have been a lot less.

 

One of the things I've learned from this tragedy is in case of an emergency, I will go to my muster station prepared to claw and fight my way to safety and God help anyone who tries to stop me.

 

You are't "just sayin" your pontificating but from a postion of self imposed ignorance.

 

Wow! Lmao! Because I have never posted here before it is assumed I know nothing. You should probably get down from that pedestal you have built for yourself, it looks a little rickety. And quite frankly, as far as I can see, the only one "pontificating for a position of self imposed ignorance" is you. Or is yours perhaps "self importance"? It was a call for people to stop bickering and an attempt to make people see that that is not helping those who are here for the first time. Giving information is one thing, acting like children is another.

 

In any case, thank you for proving my point about people whom are far to obsessed. There is such thing as a conscious, and civil discussion, and such a thing as being a crazed obsessed and morally bankrupt stalker. It has been real stalker, and it has been fun, but I respectfully digress that it has not been real fun!

[Anjjmum0294]

Some of the folks here, for sure, post irrelevant, ignorant stuff. Most people are just inquiring about things, like you.

 

Discussion boards as a whole seem to generate nastiness in some people and there is a lot of that in this thread, most of it from and directed to the same individual. I suggest you ignore that as there is some good information in this thread, including comments from several survivors of the wreck.

 

There are also a lot of posts from people who actually are knowledgeable regarding this incident and marine salvage in general, so that is valuable.

 

On a positive note, I saw a lot of work being done on the hulk today. It is all still preparatory work, but there is definitely progress being made.

 

Doc

 

Thank you Doc for that info. I have been reading articles, but that is what I came here for more information. I have read some of the posts and they are facinating. I am glad to see there are people whom can have a reasonable discussions such as yourself. I simply meant that trying to get through the bickering for a newbie, so as to find the information is quite the magnificent feat!

 

Excellent about the ships progress. I am so saddened by the loss of those poor people. Thanks for the info!:D

[Uniall]

Wow! Lmao! Because I have never posted here before it is assumed I know nothing. You should probably get down from that pedestal you have built for yourself, it looks a little rickety. And quite frankly, as far as I can see, the only one "pontificating for a position of self imposed ignorance" is you. Or is yours perhaps "self importance"? It was a call for people to stop bickering and an attempt to make people see that that is not helping those who are here for the first time. Giving information is one thing, acting like children is another.

 

In any case, thank you for proving my point about people whom are far to obsessed. There is such thing as a conscious, and civil discussion, and such a thing as being a crazed obsessed and morally bankrupt stalker. It has been real stalker, and it has been fun, but I respectfully digress that it has not been real fun!

 

Just because you do not find a discussion on the guilt or innocence of the Captain and Cruise Line to be of interest or on topic doesn't make it so. To some of us, that is the core of the issue and the manner of removing fuel and the wrecked hull is of secondary import. Yet, we, who believe the primary topic to be punishment of the guilty do not berate those discussing the fuel and wreck removal.

 

I suspect that some of those who do not wish to discuss the guilt or innocence of the parties are members of the maritime industry who are circling the wagons in a knee jerk defensive reaction. But, others live by the lif style code: "don't be judgemental" (unless you're pesonally involved or affected). In both instances, they do not want to hear such a discussion and, thinking the best defense is a good offense, launch personal attacks on those of us who believe that's the central issue.

 

As a retired prosecutor, I am judgemental about anything anyone does that is illegal and/or detrimental to society. Morevover, I consider that to be a duty and obligation of good citizenship. Sadly, that is no longer the norm.

 

In a post on another thread, you said you're so good at arguing with people that you should have been a lawyer. I can assure you that the shrill voice is always a loser while the logical presentation of facts and law is always a winner in a court of law.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

"Who gives a rat's behind if the electric went out first? Who care's if the Captain was a dirt bag?"

 

Well i would guess that those people who are seeking compensation will give a rats ass along with those who lost loved ones and as to what happened and whether there is a common problem suffered by this class of ship and how much the ships builders,designers and owners know about it. After all it would enhance their claims should it be found that Concordia had been having electrical Blackouts that were known to exist.

 

As for if the Captain is or was a dirtbag has nothing to do with the issue and he and others will be judged purely on what they did or did not do prior to and on that night in question.

 

Everyone here has an opinion with regard to Concordia and other issues and while we may not agree with each other and see things different we are allowed to have our opinions either right or wrong.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Just because you do not find a discussion on the guilt or innocence of the Captain and Cruise Line to be of interest or on topic doesn't make it so. To some of us, that is the core of the issue and the manner of removing fuel and the wrecked hull is of secondary import. Yet, we, who believe the primary topic to be punishment of the guilty do not berate those discussing the fuel and wreck removal.

 

I suspect that some of those who do not wish to discuss the guilt or innocence of the parties are members of the maritime industry who are circling the wagons in a knee jerk defensive reaction. But, others live by the lif style code: "don't be judgemental" (unless you're pesonally involved or affected). In both instances, they do not want to hear such a discussion and, thinking the best defense is a good offense, launch personal attacks on those of us who believe that's the central issue.

 

As a retired prosecutor, I am judgemental about anything anyone does that is illegal and/or detrimental to society. Morevover, I consider that to be a duty and obligation of good citizenship. Sadly, that is no longer the norm.

 

In a post on another thread, you said you're so good at arguing with people that you should have been a lawyer. I can assure you that the shrill voice is always a loser while the logical presentation of facts and law is always a winner in a court of law.

 

 

 

I have not heard anyone........Maritime back ground or not ever say the Captian screwed up loyally and your comment about circling the wagon was nothing more then a cheap shot!.

 

As a prosecutor and a officer of the court, I would think you would be first to agree we have to await the actual trial and the correct facts come out......not the media reports.

 

Shame you you!

 

AKK

[Uniall]

I have not heard anyone........Maritime back ground or not ever say the Captian screwed up loyally and your comment about circling the wagon was nothing more then a cheap shot!.

 

As a prosecutor and a officer of the court' date=' I would think you would be first to agree we have to await the actual trial and the correct facts come out......not the media reports.

 

Shame you you!

 

AKK[/quote']

 

As a prosecutor and officer of the court, I was trained to investigate, reach an opinion on guilt or innocence, bring charges, and prosecute. There is no need to await the results of a trial to reach a legal opinion on someones guilt or innocence. A guilty verdict is a decision which subjects a criminal to penalties imposed by law. A person can also be guilty of a civil wrong for the same act that is a crime. In some cases a jury can find a guilty person to be not guilty. The jury doesn't find them innocent, just not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt under the theory that it's better to let a guilty person go free than to convict an innocent person.

In some cases (e.g. O.J. Simpson) I and millions of people believe he was guilty of murder regardless of the jury decision in the criminal case (a civil jury found him guilty) The same is true of other high profile cases (e,g, Casey Anthony, etc.) too numersous to mention.

 

You overstep your bounds when you use the term "shame on me." I would not presume to instruct you on ships, boats and seamanship, don't presume to instruct me on the law.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Uniall

[Keel Haul]

Your attitude towards people who disagree with you is outrageous. I am now of the opinion that you are nothing more than a blow hard agitator, fabricator and prevaricator.

How remiss of you UNI you left out self-aggrandizing pillock:)

[Uniall]

How remiss of you UNI you left out self-aggrandizing pillock:)

 

You have me there.

 

But, I was looking for words that ended with "...ator".

 

If there were a word "pillockator". I would have used it. :D

[sidari]

http://murall.com.br/ssssss/plugins/my-category-order/costa-concordia-sinking-map

 

Just for those who have not been following this site. Interesting to note that the reef Concordia hit was 4 miles off course according to the 1st map. Much of the Media have claimed it was part of the Island of Giglio that Concordia hit.

Edited May 30, 2012 by sidari

[Tonka's Skipper]

As a prosecutor and officer of the court, I was trained to investigate, reach an opinion on guilt or innocence, bring charges, and prosecute. There is no need to await the results of a trial to reach a legal opinion on someones guilt or innocence. A guilty verdict is a decision which subjects a criminal to penalties imposed by law. A person can also be guilty of a civil wrong for the same act that is a crime. In some cases a jury can find a guilty person to be not guilty. The jury doesn't find them innocent, just not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt under the theory that it's better to let a guilty person go free than to convict an innocent person.

In some cases (e.g. O.J. Simpson) I and millions of people believe he was guilty of murder regardless of the jury decision in the criminal case (a civil jury found him guilty) The same is true of other high profile cases (e,g, Casey Anthony, etc.) too numersous to mention.

 

You overstep your bounds when you use the term "shame on me." I would not presume to instruct you on ships, boats and seamanship, don't presume to instruct me on the law.

 

 

 

Except you have not recieved all the facts and evidence......your dealing with the media and heresay.......lawyering 101.....

 

Shame on you!

 

 

PS.....you did instruct me on ships, seamanship by saying we were *surrounding the wagons*......you made a board generalization just to make yourself sound important! not to mention you were plain wrong.

 

AKK.....

[MorganMars]

Please keep it civil. When the posts resort to name-calling and arguing, Cruise Critic may close the thread or remove it all together. I, for one, don't want to see this thread go "poof."

 

Thank you,

Morgan Mars

[Tonka's Skipper]

Please keep it civil. When the posts resort to name-calling and arguing, Cruise Critic may close the thread or remove it all together. I, for one, don't want to see this thread go "poof."

 

Thank you,

Morgan Mars

 

Morgan,

 

You are absolutely correct! I should not have bothered responding when as I did. It will not change anything.

 

AKK

[MorganMars]

The information on that site is in conflict with the court documents and the Italian Coast Guard (Guardia Costiera) investigation. You may want to review the document yourself (it is provided in English here http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/2012/traduzione_ordinanza_grosseto.pdf) where it says, "the approach to 0.28 nautical miles from the coast of the island was admitted even by the captain in the course of the guarantee interrogation, affirming becoming aware only visually that there was a jutting reef with which the ship’s bottom impacted."

 

All the official documents indicate impact with the Le Scole reef which is identified on the nautical charts as an outcrop from Giglio. You can also view video evidence of the Le Scole impact site at

 

Regards,

Morgan Mars

 

http://murall.com.br/ssssss/plugins/my-category-order/costa-concordia-sinking-map

 

Just for those who have not been following this site. Interesting to note that the reef Concordia hit was 4 miles off course according to the 1st map. Much of the Media have claimed it was part of the Island of Giglio that Concordia hit.

[RuthlessBoss]

Is there more than 1 cam aimed at the ship? The only one I have is The Last Salute, but doesn't show much. I'm sorry, but I don't want to skim 43 pages of reading.

[sidari]

RB ... Just the one on the Salute site and one on the Giglio Webcam... :)

 

Morgan .... I was quite suprised to see that info on the Salute website because like many others i believed the reef was part of Giglio that the ship was supposed to have hit, now then these people are making a time lapse film so it now makes you wonder if and i say if ... Concordia hit this reef at 4 miles off course which brought about the Power loss and the Bang was when concordia hit the reef outcrop of Giglio which is where the Rock stuck in the side of Concordia below the waterline is!

 

"affirming becoming aware only visually that there was a jutting reef with which the ship’s bottom impacted."

 

The Ship is holed on the side and if there is a hole in the bottom then the reef at 4 miles out as claimed on the Salute site may well be what caused the initial damage, but until the ship is inspected during the salvage operation we will have to wait and see.

[Uniall]

Except you have not recieved all the facts and evidence......your dealing with the media and heresay.......lawyering 101.....

 

Shame on you!

 

 

PS.....you did instruct me on ships' date=' seamanship by saying we were *surrounding the wagons*......you made a board generalization just to make yourself sound important! not to mention you were plain wrong.

 

AKK.....[/quote']

 

I won't take the bait and violate the board rules by launching attacks on you, personally, as you and your kindred spirits do unto me. But, I would suggest you reread my original post which you even cut and pasted in "red":

I suspect that some of those who do not wish to discuss the guilt or innocence of the parties are members of the maritime industry who are circling the wagons in a knee jerk defensive reaction.

I chose my words carefully, using the restrictive "some" to prevent an over generalization. There is no doubt that some members of the maritime industry, have attempted to defend the abosultely indefensible actions of Captain Schtino and Costa Cruises because they are "maritime brothers and sisters". (Parathetically, this is a common human attribute: Police, Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, etc. have codes of silence and defend one of their own when when attacked) It strikes me that your immediate attack on me and my logic indicates that you do in fact fall into that catagory.

 

Your argument that my knowledge is incomplete or incompetent or unreliable (legal terms, not yours) because it's based on media reports and hearsay is fallacious and illogical on it's face.

 

First, the rules of evidence vary from country to country and many have no prohibition against hearsay evidence.

 

Second, those countries that frown on hearsay evididence have many exceptions to the hearsay rule. (I won't even try to explain it to you, it takes an entire semester in law school. But, I can get any thing said by any one on almost any subject into evidence in a court room).

 

Third, your theoretical model attacking the human ability to learn facts and knowlege had its origins in the Golden Age of Greece and they called themselves "Sophists". The Sophists were scorned, rediculed and then debunked by Socrates, father of modern learning and Aristotle, father of modern logic. (As and aside, the Sophists defended themselves by attacking Socrates personally. Since they controlled the government, they were able to condemned Socrates to death, ordering him to drink the poison hemlock. "Sophistry" had a modern rebirth in the 1950s with the "beatnik" movement and 1960s with the "hippie" movements Their Gurus (e.g. Timothy O'Leary) preached that you could never really know anything for certain OR knowledge could only be attained by taking mind altering drugs.

 

As for me (unlike Socrates), being Irish-American, I don't go quietly into the night. I carry a law book in one hand and a sword in the other. When in doubt, I ask myself: "What would John Wayne do?" ;)

Edited May 30, 2012 by Uniall

[DocF]

The Giglio web cam is showing at least 6 vessels working around the hulk today. This is a major ramp up in activity.

 

I am going to ignore the sniping comments from two posters in this thread, but I do wonder where the moderators of the Costa board are. To allow these people to be so antagonistic toward innocent inquiries is, in my mind out of bounds.

 

Doc

[Uniall]

The Giglio web cam is showing at least 6 vessels working around the hulk today. This is a major ramp up in activity.

 

I am going to ignore the sniping comments from two posters in this thread, but I do wonder where the moderators of the Costa board are. To allow these people to be so antagonistic toward innocent inquiries is, in my mind out of bounds.

 

Doc

 

Doc

I don't know if you consider me one of the people "sniping" at others. If so, you are mistaken. I have been personally attacked by others because they believe my posts concerning punishment of the guilty for causing the disaster is either:

Off thread topic or

Only the Courts can decide the issues and posts must be censored.

I have no interest in salvage operations but don't say anything negative about posts or posters who wish to discuss it.

 

But, some posters wish control the discussion and censor posts and posters dealing with condemnation of the parties responsible for the destruction of the ship and the mental and physical suffering and deaths of passengers.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Uniall

[MorganMars]

I don't think that it is necessary to wait for the salvage of the ship. The testimony of the officers on the bridge have already made it quite clear. At one time we had a poster who was providing translations of the court documents from Italian, but even without that you may be able to read the testimony in this document http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/2012/inchieste/cap-1-pag-45-47.pdf that tells exactly what happened.

 

I hope that will ease your mind and convince you that your initial impression was the correct one. I believe that the map on the Salute site was originally published in the Daily Mail and was found to be in error on several counts, including the original intended course, which was to the east of Giglio, not to the west of the island as represented in that graphic.

 

Regards,

Morgan Mars

 

RB ... Just the one on the Salute site and one on the Giglio Webcam... :)

 

Morgan .... I was quite suprised to see that info on the Salute website because like many others i believed the reef was part of Giglio that the ship was supposed to have hit, now then these people are making a time lapse film so it now makes you wonder if and i say if ... Concordia hit this reef at 4 miles off course which brought about the Power loss and the Bang was when concordia hit the reef outcrop of Giglio which is where the Rock stuck in the side of Concordia below the waterline is!

 

"affirming becoming aware only visually that there was a jutting reef with which the ship’s bottom impacted."

 

The Ship is holed on the side and if there is a hole in the bottom then the reef at 4 miles out as claimed on the Salute site may well be what caused the initial damage, but until the ship is inspected during the salvage operation we will have to wait and see.

[Tonka's Skipper]

RB ... Just the one on the Salute site and one on the Giglio Webcam... :)

 

Morgan .... I was quite suprised to see that info on the Salute website because like many others i believed the reef was part of Giglio that the ship was supposed to have hit, now then these people are making a time lapse film so it now makes you wonder if and i say if ... Concordia hit this reef at 4 miles off course which brought about the Power loss and the Bang was when concordia hit the reef outcrop of Giglio which is where the Rock stuck in the side of Concordia below the waterline is!

 

"affirming becoming aware only visually that there was a jutting reef with which the ship’s bottom impacted."

 

The Ship is holed on the side and if there is a hole in the bottom then the reef at 4 miles out as claimed on the Salute site may well be what caused the initial damage, but until the ship is inspected during the salvage operation we will have to wait and see.

 

 

The bottom of the wreck is fully exposed.........a easy dive should show if there is any additional damages, especially in the area of the port side hole/rock.

 

AKK

 

AKK

[sidari]

Tonka ... The whole of the bottom of Concordia was exposed in the video taken from the coastguard helicopter which appeared to show no holes just a number of Black areas.

 

Morgan ... I have no idea where the graphic came from and do not recall seeing it on the Mail`s website but i take your word about where it came from. With regard to the so called intended route i knew that to be wrong having travelled along the route used by Costa and other cruise ships ie between the Mainland and Giglio, going south from Savona or Genoa the ships travel around the west side of Giglio as we have done on a number of occasions.

[MorganMars]

I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to that graphic as support that the ship had struck a reef 4 miles from Giglio.

 

I now am also confused about your comment to Tonka below about the video showing no holes in the hull, as there are numerous photos showing the huge gash in the hull.:confused:

 

Regards,

Morgan Mars

 

Tonka ... The whole of the bottom of Concordia was exposed in the video taken from the coastguard helicopter which appeared to show no holes just a number of Black areas.

 

Morgan ... I have no idea where the graphic came from and do not recall seeing it on the Mail`s website but i take your word about where it came from. With regard to the so called intended route i knew that to be wrong having travelled along the route used by Costa and other cruise ships ie between the Mainland and Giglio, going south from Savona or Genoa the ships travel around the west side of Giglio as we have done on a number of occasions.