opting out of auto tipping?

[momofmeg]

Hey, kids are expensive! I understand why she doesn't wanta pay for them!

 

 

 

Not.

 

I always paid tips on my daughter's meals in restaurants when she was a child-granted when she was younger the tip was less because her meal was less-but by the time she was 13 she was eating adult meals- so same tip for her as hubby and I. When staying in a hotel or motel we would tip for 3 people for the housekeeper-the hotel may have charged less when she was under 18-but she still dirtied towels and slept in a bed.

 

She was 15 before we took her on a cruise-our first cruise we went the 2 of us the year before. Before that cruises were not really in the budget-as we were doing the Disneyworld type things with her when we did a "special" vacation with her, and so there went our vacation fund.

 

Because we had always tipped the hotel housekeeper, and we had paid adult prices for her at restaurants and movie theaters since she was 12 or so-we saw no reason to quibble with the cruiseline.

 

To the OP- I can guarantee you, even with tips, a 7 day Caribbean cruise will cost you less than than a week at Disneyworld /Universal Studios would, and you will get much better service. Even on lines like NCL, the service is better than what you get in a Disney world restaurant buying an overpriced burger and chips. You will also go home feeling relaxed not "harried," the way those amusement parks do you .

[helpthejuggler]

I may think that opting out of pre-payment or auto tipping is not an effective way to handle the situation, however the option is provided by the cruiseline.

 

The option could be removed by cruiselines if it was being misused.

 

Passengers must make their own choices from the mechanisms provided.

[momofmeg]

I never said I was not paying, anyways my consultant whom I got the reservation from said it is up to us if we want to auto pay or not. Whatever I do, people are asking opinions here, not wanting to hear how children aren't less work. Ridiculous if you ask me that you are the one acting out like children. And no, I don't need to lighten up, I just voiced my opinion. Haha

 

You know- perhaps your consultant wants to make a sell and get his/her commission-think used car salesman. Now, I am not complaining about travel agents, once you used one a couple of times then they really look out for you-but as a first time buyer, they have no idea if or when you will come back.

 

Besides I doubt your Ta worded it that way. No reputable TA would anyway.

 

I hate to say it-but it would be good IF cruiselines just added this upfront into the fee-as the fares seem reasonable to people and so often attracts people who really cannot afford to cruise.

 

Just to let you know-alcoholic drinks cost what they would in a bar/restaurant. If Your kid likes to drink a lot of coke/sodas-buy that soda card to save money in the long run. There are also pinball machines on cruises that cost $$$ the way these young teens like to play them. You may find out that the big expense on the cruise is NOT your auto tip but other things. I remember once a man in the elevator the last morning on RCI Mariner of the Seas fussing that his 2 kids ran up $800 on his bill for gourmet ice cream,sodas, and pin ball machines.

[wwcruisers]

Please learn how to use quotes in your responses. Otherwise, no one knows who you are agreeing 100% with.....

 

:rolleyes:

 

I was just about to say the same thing! :p

Actually, that particular poster might want to try the "multi-quote" function: Just click the quotation mark at the bottom of each post you wish to quote. When you're finished, just hit the post reply button, and the posts you've selected should all come up in the reply box. You can then scroll down, replying to each, before hitting submit reply (as usual). :cool:

[VerbalT]

I'm new to cruising as well, so I believe I understand at least the point of view of the original poster, though I don't necessarily agree with it. The cruise lines advertise a certain price per person for a cruise. Then a hefty sum of money is added onto that for various fees and costs. Then we are nickle and dimed about non-alcoholic drinks on the boat or various other things that are usually included (like free WiFi for instance). Then we are told that a mandatory tip is being added on for us. It all feels too much like getting squeezed for every penny under the guise of various "necessary costs."

 

If something is not a tip, then it shouldn't be called one. If we're being asked to pay the salary of crew members who interact with us directly, then that should be made clear. A tip is not mandatory in all cultures and to all service industries, as others have pointed out. But if it is indeed a tip that is expected of each traveler, then I think those travelers are perfectly within their rights to decide on the amounts given. We can judge them however we want on whether they are being stingy or overly generous, but it really isn't any of our business at the end of the day.

 

If the cruising company is calling it a tip, they are defining the nature of the compensation. If they called it something more appropriate or included it in the cost of the trip, then people would be less hesitant to pay it.

 

Personally, I like to have as little to worry about while I'm on vacation as possible. So I'm a fan of the "all inclusive" trips and all my fees and gratuities are always paid in advance.

[luddite]

I'm new to cruising as well, so I believe I understand at least the point of view of the original poster, though I don't necessarily agree with it. The cruise lines advertise a certain price per person for a cruise. Then a hefty sum of money is added onto that for various fees and costs. Then we are nickle and dimed about non-alcoholic drinks on the boat or various other things that are usually included (like free WiFi for instance). Then we are told that a mandatory tip is being added on for us. It all feels too much like getting squeezed for every penny under the guise of various "necessary costs."

 

If something is not a tip, then it shouldn't be called one. If we're being asked to pay the salary of crew members who interact with us directly, then that should be made clear. A tip is not mandatory in all cultures and to all service industries, as others have pointed out. But if it is indeed a tip that is expected of each traveler, then I think those travelers are perfectly within their rights to decide on the amounts given. We can judge them however we want on whether they are being stingy or overly generous, but it really isn't any of our business at the end of the day.

 

If the cruising company is calling it a tip, they are defining the nature of the compensation. If they called it something more appropriate or included it in the cost of the trip, then people would be less hesitant to pay it.

 

Personally, I like to have as little to worry about while I'm on vacation as possible. So I'm a fan of the "all inclusive" trips and all my fees and gratuities are always paid in advance.

 

It's a Daily Service Charge. Tips are anything else you give 'em.

[SantaFeFan]

I'm new to cruising as well, so I believe I understand at least the point of view of the original poster, though I don't necessarily agree with it. The cruise lines advertise a certain price per person for a cruise. Then a hefty sum of money is added onto that for various fees and costs. Then we are nickle and dimed about non-alcoholic drinks on the boat or various other things that are usually included (like free WiFi for instance). Then we are told that a mandatory tip is being added on for us. It all feels too much like getting squeezed for every penny under the guise of various "necessary costs."

 

So, if you are so annoyed at being "nickle and dimed" at every turn, and "squeezed for every penny", then just don't get on a cruise ship! Who in their right mind voluntarily goes on a vacation knowing full well that they will be irritated and complain about every little thing. Makes no sense to a logical thinking person like myself. You should just stay home and save your precious "pennies", "nickels" and "dimes".

 

Sheesh, I tire of the constant stream of "being ripped off" complainers.

 

Thanks! I feel better now :o I'll go find another thread with reasonable people discussing useful topics.

[momofmeg]

I'm new to cruising as well, so I believe I understand at least the point of view of the original poster, though I don't necessarily agree with it. The cruise lines advertise a certain price per person for a cruise. Then a hefty sum of money is added onto that for various fees and costs. Then we are nickle and dimed about non-alcoholic drinks on the boat or various other things that are usually included (like free WiFi for instance). Then we are told that a mandatory tip is being added on for us. It all feels too much like getting squeezed for every penny under the guise of various "necessary costs."

 

If something is not a tip, then it shouldn't be called one. If we're being asked to pay the salary of crew members who interact with us directly, then that should be made clear. A tip is not mandatory in all cultures and to all service industries, as others have pointed out. But if it is indeed a tip that is expected of each traveler, then I think those travelers are perfectly within their rights to decide on the amounts given. We can judge them however we want on whether they are being stingy or overly generous, but it really isn't any of our business at the end of the day.

 

If the cruising company is calling it a tip, they are defining the nature of the compensation. If they called it something more appropriate or included it in the cost of the trip, then people would be less hesitant to pay it.

 

Personally, I like to have as little to worry about while I'm on vacation as possible. So I'm a fan of the "all inclusive" trips and all my fees and gratuities are always paid in advance.

 

WiFi is expensive because there are no towers out in the ocean-so the signal comes from a satellite-it is expensive for the cruiseline to tap into this, so they merely pass the cost on to us. I have found I can do without the internet for a few days.

 

As far as nickel and diming-amusement parks are the worst for nickel and diming-our last cruise we spent a couple of days at an amusement park precruise and we found per day the amusement park was more expensive-(example- extremely long lines for rides, but for $50 a person extra per day, we could get in shorter priority lines-that alone was almost as much as our tips/service charge was for the 5 day cruise-but we paid it-in order not to spend 2 hours plus in line for each ride) and not nearly as enjoyable. Think of it this way-even NCL has better food then the over priced food at the amusement park.

[beachchick]

I would not like auto tipping either; I feel I can tip at the end like one other cruise lines do how much, and agree with the children thing. I have 3 kids cruising with us, and I will be the one cleaning up after them after they clean up after themselves. When we go out and stay at hotels, I never want room service. Something about people touching my things. And for the dinner I don't understand why it is per person, why not 15% of the entire bill, like other restaurants? Why per person??? Not trying to be mean, just curious as we are going on a first cruise soon.

 

I don't understand this. What will you use to determine the 15%? You aren't handed a bill for food at the end of the meal like you are in restaurants. The only thing you have to sign for are beverages that are not included in the cruise fare (e.g., soda and alcohol). Will you just figure out how much you think the meal would be worth or cost on land? Will you then leave a cash tip every meal, which the servers will be required to turn in to the pool anyway?

 

At the specialty restaurants, you are charged a per person surcharge, which covers the venue, extra service, made to order and usually higher end food offered there. You can add extra to that if you choose, but it's by no means required.

 

Of course, you can do as you wish. But I have to ask if you really understand or perhaps care that removing the auto charges puts your service staff on the spot with their management. When you remove the charges, your stewards and waiters will be taken to task over how and why their service to you was so unsatisfactory that you removed the service charges.

 

beachchick

[helpthejuggler]

Of course, you can do as you wish. But I have to ask if you really understand or perhaps care that removing the auto charges puts your service staff on the spot with their management. When you remove the charges, your stewards and waiters will be taken to task over how and why their service to you was so unsatisfactory that you removed the service charges.

 

beachchick

 

The management making this assumption are incorrect in assuming the connection. If auto tips are removed at the start of the cruise this is most likely not related to service, since it has not yet been given.

 

Surely if cash tips are given direct instead and then pooled the service must have been acceptable or better.

 

The only judgement that could be made is from a trend where many passengers do not pay the service charges.

 

Sometimes people will take advantage of the system to save their money.

 

It is within the power of the cruise lines to change the system when it doesn't work for them.

[kelmac]

This has always been an economic issue for the Cruise Lines. Here are some considerations:

 

--some cruises make money (7 day Caribbean cruise @ $1,200 per person)

--some cruises lose money (15 day TransAtlantic cruise @ $799 per person)

--this profit or loss doesn't matter when it comes to paying the service staff onboard a cruise ship. The company pays them + - $100 a month, but the service fee, or "tips", will give them a good wage. In other words, these workers will get paid, even if this particular cruise is a net loss. They are private contractors working for the customers onboard the ship.

--there are tax issues as well. The company can write off the loss of the unprofitable cruise and the salary generated for the workers is not even on the books. The company must cut a check for the CD, and the officers, and the engineers below decks -- all part of the balance sheet. Most cruise companies pay less than 2% in taxes, some none at all, to the Treasury of the United States. (RCI, CCL..,)

--this system actually had it's roots in the UK, not the US. (White Star, Cunard...,) Since they were employing children, and near slave labor, the "Tips" gave them a living wage, as well as a place to live.

--cruises are inexpensive, in large part, because of tax and law avoidance strategies employed by cruise lines.

--this is NOT your normal corporate business in the US, or the UK, or Europe.

 

Kel

[helpthejuggler]

This has always been an economic issue for the Cruise Lines. Here are some considerations:

 

--some cruises make money (7 day Caribbean cruise @ $1,200 per person)

--some cruises lose money (15 day TransAtlantic cruise @ $799 per person)

--this profit or loss doesn't matter when it comes to paying the service staff onboard a cruise ship. The company pays them + - $100 a month, but the service fee, or "tips", will give them a good wage. In other words, these workers will get paid, even if this particular cruise is a net loss. They are private contractors working for the customers onboard the ship.

--there are tax issues as well. The company can write off the loss of the unprofitable cruise and the salary generated for the workers is not even on the books. The company must cut a check for the CD, and the officers, and the engineers below decks -- all part of the balance sheet. Most cruise companies pay less than 2% in taxes, some none at all, to the Treasury of the United States. (RCI, CCL..,)

--this system actually had it's roots in the UK, not the US. (White Star, Cunard...,) Since they were employing children, and near slave labor, the "Tips" gave them a living wage, as well as a place to live.

--cruises are inexpensive, in large part, because of tax and law avoidance strategies employed by cruise lines.

--this is NOT your normal corporate business in the US, or the UK, or Europe.

 

Kel

 

An interesting perspective.

 

Does it make anyone in US uneasy that major, profitable businesses pay so little tax, particularly when times are tough.

 

Wonder how much tax income is lost to the US because of avoiding taxes through low staff costs paired with service tips?

[njhorseman]

An interesting perspective.

 

Does it make anyone in US uneasy that major, profitable businesses pay so little tax, particularly when times are tough.

 

Wonder how much tax income is lost to the US because of avoiding taxes through low staff costs paired with service tips?

 

The only significant tax issues are caused by where the cruise lines are incorporated and where the ships are flagged, not how they pay their employees. Corporations pay income taxes on profit, not gross revenue, so if the cruise lines charged $100 per week higher fare to each of its passengers in order to pay $100 per week in higher salaries to its crew, no profit is made...$100 in revenue (higher fare) would be offset by $100 in expenses (salary) resulting in zero net profit and zero income tax liability.

[greatam]

The management making this assumption are incorrect in assuming the connection. If auto tips are removed at the start of the cruise this is most likely not related to service, since it has not yet been given.

 

While your premise may be correct, this is not the way the cruise ship management looks at it.

 

Surely if cash tips are given direct instead and then pooled the service must have been acceptable or better.

 

What most hand out for cash tips in total is LESS than the total of the auto-tip. As I pointed out in a previous post, for a family of 4 or 5, you would have to hand out $200 to your steward and $200 to your waiter to come out about even. MOST are not handing out $200 to each. MAYBE $100 to each but that still is $100 or more BELOW what the auto tip is for a family of 4 or 5, so the crew gets STIFFED.

 

 

The only judgement that could be made is from a trend where many passengers do not pay the service charges.

 

Sometimes people will take advantage of the system to save their money.

 

It is within the power of the cruise lines to change the system when it doesn't work for them.

 

The TREND of not paying is EXACTLY why some of the "any time" dining cruise lines have now REQUIRED the tips be prepaid. Same thing as adding the tips into the fares for Australians and some European cruises. In the "olden days" when you actually put the money in an envelope on the last night of the cruise, the dining room was usually 1/3 empty on that last night. The buffet was PACKED so people could avoid having to part with their money.

[greatam]

Wonder how much tax income is lost to the US because of avoiding taxes through low staff costs paired with service tips?

 

YOU think the base pay via UK standards for stewards, waiters, laundry personnel, etc. etc. is LOW but as I posted previously, the base pay is about equal to what the AVERAGE income for the same job is in each particular crew members home country. The tips/service charge, whatever you want to call it, gives the crew a way to get out of AVERAGE for low paying jobs in their home countries.

[helpthejuggler]

The only significant tax issues are caused by where the cruise lines are incorporated and where the ships are flagged, not how they pay their employees. Corporations pay income taxes on profit, not gross revenue, so if the cruise lines charged $100 per week higher fare to each of its passengers in order to pay $100 per week in higher salaries to its crew, no profit is made...$100 in revenue (higher fare) would be offset by $100 in expenses (salary) resulting in zero net profit and zero income tax liability.

 

Of course the corporation taxes would not be affected, as you say.

I should have made the distinction, I was initially thinking more of taxes from the staff who with a low salary would pay little if any tax at present.

[helpthejuggler]

While your premise may be correct, this is not the way the cruise ship management looks at it.

 

How do modern large companies select a management team with so little perception or capability to take big picture judgements rather than using tick-boxes as a substitute for an intellect.

 

Is stupidity that self-perpetuating?

[njhorseman]

Of course the corporation taxes would not be affected, as you say.

I should have made the distinction, I was initially thinking more of taxes from the staff who with a low salary would pay little if any tax at present.

 

Staff wouldn't be liable for US income taxes either, even if they received the higher pay in the form of salary rather than via the current system. Even if they are working on a ship with a US home port, by law they are considered to be employed in the ship's flag country, not the US. Unless a crew member is a US citizen or resident (and very few are) they are not subject to US income taxes.

 

When Cunard recently reflagged its ships to Bermuda, many believed it was primarily done to avoid UK labor and tax laws, rather than for Cunard's announced reason of being able to perform weddings at sea.

[greatam]

How do modern large companies select a management team with so little perception or capability to take big picture judgements rather than using tick-boxes as a substitute for an intellect.

 

Is stupidity that self-perpetuating?

 

The cruise lines look at it this way-MOST people who remove the auto tips DO NOT tip to the amount of the auto-tip. Or don't tip at all.

 

$10-12 per day x 7 x 2 people is at least $140. Very often, the two people a cruiser has the MOST contact with are the room steward and their waiter/assistant waiter. So if they hand the room steward and waiter both $50 (which a LOT of people would think is a HUGE amount) and the assistant waiter $20, they had STIFFED the staff and paid less than the auto tip. And what about all the behind the scenes people you never run into or if you eat in the buffet, who are you going to tip? Walk down the line handing everyone at every station $5.00 per meal???

 

You are from the UK and your custom is generally not to tip. But I have spent enough time in Europe to see the 10-20% SERVICE charge added onto the bill at most restaurants. I have NO OPTION to remove that even if I got crap service. Well, I guess I could but who wants to stand around arguing with a restaurant manager? So what is the difference between the service charge imposed in UK (and other countries) restaurants and that on a cruise ship?

 

And the real killer-the UK restaurant owner doesn't even have to share the SERVICE charge with the wait staff and uses the same ploy that a lot of restaurants do in the US-below minimum wage with XXX amount of the tips to make up the minimum wage which must be turned in to the restaurant to be paid BACK as salary. Anything OVER the minimum wage can be kept by the wait staff in the US. Doesn't appear to be that way in the UK.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8281191.stm

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/oct/01/tips-restaurants-unite-protest

 

Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, I would say.

[luddite]

The only significant tax issues are caused by where the cruise lines are incorporated and where the ships are flagged, not how they pay their employees. Corporations pay income taxes on profit, not gross revenue, so if the cruise lines charged $100 per week higher fare to each of its passengers in order to pay $100 per week in higher salaries to its crew, no profit is made...$100 in revenue (higher fare) would be offset by $100 in expenses (salary) resulting in zero net profit and zero income tax liability.

 

Nope. That would actually be LOSING money. It isn't a straight-up trade.

[VerbalT]

I know this is a heated issue, so I won't belabor the point. I think the OP's question has been answered, and I think I've made my position of understanding her, though not agreeing with her, pretty clear.

 

I'd just like to quickly play devil's advocate and respond to the handful of replies here citing the financial realities of the cruise industry as some sort of justification for why those who go on a cruises should pay these voluntary tips.

 

First of all, it's unrealistic to expect the average passenger to know the details of how business is conducted on board these ships. Certainly, we don't get to scrutinize the accounting records of a restaurant before deciding a fair tip for our server. So why should we be expected to know all the goings on behind the scenes, or take them into account, when deciding what's fair to tip on a ship?

 

Second of all, if the owners of the ship, and the ones profiting from our vacation dollars don't care about fair compensation for their staff, why should its guests? The people who clean the rooms and cook the food for the buffet aren't our employees. They are employed by the cruise line. Why should the responsibility for their fair compensation be foisted on us? It seems like those arrangements should be agreed upon between employee and employer.

 

So let's place the blame where it belongs. The cruise line management are the ones who seem like the bad guy. They avoid all the taxes they can. They play all sorts of games with the wages of their workers and the listed prices of cruises. Why should those who oppose their methods and choose to decide tip amounts on their own be demonized or belittled? Especially when tips are listed as a voluntary expense.

 

As I said before, I'm happy to pay what is asked of me. I understand that it all works out in the end, and my family and I will get a great vacation for our money. I just disagree with some of the justifications offered here, and am really taken aback at the number of responders who are downright hostile about these issues.

[ladybug1s]

Service is all over the world? Don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure good service . BTW, I plan on tipping my steward a BIG tip when I first get there. lol

And will probably tip throughout the week and at the end. Its my choice. And I'm not taking auto pay away. From what I've read, on RC ships, its not automatic unless you have my TIME DINING? So I'm confused, why the arguments. People pay how they want? Doesn't mean anyone is cheap?

[ladybug1s]

Thanks and I agree. Just got done reading "Cruise Confidential" in 10 hours ! It was a good read! Now I'm reading , "The Truth About Cruise Ships". I am trying to learn all I can about the industry inside and out! LOL Anyone else have any good reads! Lets all shake hands and be friends now...birdies singing in my ear.

[ladybug1s]

The cruise lines advertise a certain price per person for a cruise. Then a hefty sum of money is added onto that for various fees and costs. Then we are nickle and dimed about non-alcoholic drinks on the boat or various other things that are usually included.

 

I wish they would have told me when I finally paid my cruise off. I wanted to take my 3 children on a nice family vacation, since we have not been able to. It took me an entire year of my savings for this trip. I was never told about this tip. So now here I go again, thinking I had enough saved ( 300.00 ) to tip and now to find I have to tip for 5 which totals for my family about 500.00. I was told however when I asked about any hidden fees that we could possible pay a surcharge per passenger for gas? Wonder If I will get charged that also? Sigh..

[ladybug1s]

The management making this assumption are incorrect in assuming the connection. If auto tips are removed at the start of the cruise this is most likely not related to service, since it has not yet been given.

 

Surely if cash tips are given direct instead and then pooled the service must have been acceptable or better.

 

The only judgement that could be made is from a trend where many passengers do not pay the service charges.

 

Sometimes people will take advantage of the system to save their money.

 

It is within the power of the cruise lines to change the system when it doesn't work for them.

 

 

That is my thought exactly! I can not help for the ones that do not tip. I will indeed hand my steward a big bill the beginning of the trip and something at the end. I am sure he will keep the first big bill to himself since tips are not expected till the end. And the last bill will be auto pooled , in which he will get a bigger tip for himself. That is the way I see it? I just voiced an opinion and boy, did I step on some toes. Very touchy subject. lol I'm done, but thanks for the ones understanding of it. Happy Cruising!!

__________________