If St Petersburg Outlaws "GAY" will Atlantis still go?

[jamessemaj]

Perhaps this will add to your anticipation and a bit of levity to this subject.

 

 

ONT-CA, thanks, that is great. I forgot the name of that place, but I have been there. It is a popular spot for couples to take pre-wedding fotos. You can also see a ski run which is a popular activity but I wouldn't go there))). There is also the Olympic stadium which the USA under Carter boycotted. Also the Moscow State University, one of the most prestigious universities in Russia.

 

I know you know that, but I point it out for others. Thanks, that's a great clip showing the spirit of Russia of which most Americans have no clue.

[shepp]

I know nothing of this new law, but I spent 2 weeks in St. Petersburg and Moscow and can say without reservation that to compare Russia in terms of homophobia to Africa, the Caribbean or even the USA is way off the mark. .

 

 

http://allout.org/en/actions/moscow

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/06/russia.html

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/05/moscow.html

 

http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2011/04/in-russia-gay-activist-suffers-second.html

 

http://www.gayrussia.eu/en/russia/1767/

 

Whatever. Two weeks as a tourist no doubt made you more informed than I.

[ONT-CA]

Whatever. Two weeks as a tourist no doubt made you more informed than I.

 

It is becoming obvious that this is not a pro gay thing. This is an anti Russian thing. A Rush Limbaugh sort of thing.

We should remember that we are speaking of a law that may or may not be passed by a city council that may or may not be re-elected. And if passed one would think that their federal government would challenge it not unlike that of the Tennessee Senate that passed a bill that would bar teachers from discussing homosexuality with elementary and middle school students. But this homophobia by a bunch of backward thinking and confused people has no bearing on the safety of visitors. There should be no Russiaphobia or Anti American sentiments based on these silly local homophobic decisions which are bound to be overturned and resolved in time.

[shepp]

It is becoming obvious that this is not a pro gay thing. This is an anti Russian thing. A Rush Limbaugh sort of thing.

 

That's absurd. And, honestly, precisely the line that antigay Russian nativists take.

 

OK, someone on the basis of two weeks' tourism posts "without reservation" that homophobia in Russia is nowhere near what it is in the USA. (Presumably, he wasn't in Moscow for the Pride Parade, though, since the Pride Parade was banned in Moscow until last year, when it lasted a few minutes before being attacked by ultra-Orthodox thugs.)

 

As Daniel Moynihan said, "You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts."

 

I post coverage of multiple attacks against LGBT people and inaction/participation by the police (and there's plenty more here: http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/guide/country_by_country/russia), and am told that I'm being "anti-Russian." Honestly, I have no idea what to do with that. You think all the coverage of vicious antigay attacks in the former Soviet Union are just made up, something to impair your untrammeled enjoyment of Fabergé eggs?

 

Fine.

 

Have fun with that.

[bdjam]

And if there is "a gay lifestyle," what does it consist of? Going to the Opera? Dressing fabulously?

 

Both! Hey Shepp have I told you I love you lately? Your arguement - as always - is spot on. My question about the whole situation is why would St. Petersburg allow a ship full of gay men to even come into port if they're really serious about the non-gay legalities...oh, I know...because that ship full of gay men will put a bunch of money into the economy. Money trumps the ideology any day.

 

Just don't talk to the natives. Right - I'd stay on the ship and would mention to Atlantis that I'd like a credit for the port charges that go to St. Petersberg. As a company catering to a gay clientele, they should be more than happy to comply.

[SakeDad]

 

We should remember that we are speaking of a law that may or may not be passed by a city council that may or may not be re-elected......But this homophobia by a bunch of backward thinking and confused people has no bearing on the safety of visitors. There should be no Russiaphobia or Anti American sentiments based on these silly local homophobic decisions which are bound to be overturned and resolved in time.

 

Actually this law HAS been passed (twice) and the Mayor has vowed to sign it into law. As for tourist safety, if you are viewed as gay in St Petersburg I would have you watch this video to see just how SAFE you think you will be in St Petersburg.

 

[SakeDad]

Both! Hey Shepp have I told you I love you lately? Your arguement - as always - is spot on. My question about the whole situation is why would St. Petersburg allow a ship full of gay men to even come into port if they're really serious about the non-gay legalities...oh, I know...because that ship full of gay men will put a bunch of money into the economy. Money trumps the ideology any day.

 

Just don't talk to the natives. Right - I'd stay on the ship and would mention to Atlantis that I'd like a credit for the port charges that go to St. Petersberg. As a company catering to a gay clientele, they should be more than happy to comply.

 

Considering they are chartering the entire ship you would think they would ask HAL to not visit St Petersburg but go to another port in the region (and there are many!) that would be more gay friendly. I get that people want to see St Petersburg (I loved her!) but maybe they would be best seeing it on a non-gay chartered cruise. Maybe:confused:

[Boytjie]

Considering they are chartering the entire ship you would think they would ask HAL to not visit St Petersburg but go to another port in the region (and there are many!) that would be more gay friendly. I get that people want to see St Petersburg (I loved her!) but maybe they would be best seeing it on a non-gay chartered cruise. Maybe:confused:

 

The charter company can dictate which ports to go to, they don't have to ask HAL to reconsider. Our RSVP cruises have done itinararies that are not regular HAL routes.

[jamessemaj]

 

http://allout.org/en/actions/moscow

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/06/russia.html

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2011/05/moscow.html

 

http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2011/04/in-russia-gay-activist-suffers-second.html

 

http://www.gayrussia.eu/en/russia/1767/

 

Whatever. Two weeks as a tourist no doubt made you more informed than I.

 

Yeah, shepp, you are a YouTube expert. Unfortunately, you have no grasp of real homophobia. And when I spoke of drama, I must now confess that I had visions of a real drama queen in my mind, and it was you.

 

Just one point about your videos, which I didn't bother with, there is a difference in Russia between government actions and what the Russian people believe and practice. There is often a disconnect and it comes from their history.

 

Continue to draw your impressions of Russia from YouTube and common propaganda and don't go there. It's your loss, but you will never know. Clutch your pearls and go to your fainting couch, and ignore my own authentic personal experience. Pfffft.

 

OK, I did look and see it's not YouTube. The Pfffft stands.

[jamessemaj]

Both! Hey Shepp have I told you I love you lately? Your arguement - as always - is spot on. My question about the whole situation is why would St. Petersburg allow a ship full of gay men to even come into port if they're really serious about the non-gay legalities...oh, I know...because that ship full of gay men will put a bunch of money into the economy. Money trumps the ideology any day.

 

Just don't talk to the natives. Right - I'd stay on the ship and would mention to Atlantis that I'd like a credit for the port charges that go to St. Petersberg. As a company catering to a gay clientele, they should be more than happy to comply.

 

Why would you be on this ship to begin with?????

[ONT-CA]

If one has visited and presumably enjoyed St. Petersburg, wouldn't chastising those who would also now like to go be considered...

 

Don't do as I do, do as I say.

 

I hope the HAL group have a great time in St. Petersburg, see as much as the limited time will allow and do our community proud.

[SakeDad]

If one has visited and presumably enjoyed St. Petersburg, wouldn't chastising those who would also now like to go be considered...

 

Don't do as I do, do as I say.

 

I hope the HAL group have a great time in St. Petersburg, see as much as the limited time will allow and do our community proud.

 

Considering when I went there was no law to outlaw my very existance? No. I was there 3 years ago (actually worked on the ship) and found it fascinating to walk around the city knowing the history and remember thinking how "free" it all felt. Clearly 3 years later that is not the case and now that the LOCAL St Petersburg government is passing this law I think it a very fair question. A month ago I would have said "Go! Enjoy!" but after this law was passed this month I think it's a fair topic to bring up ESPECIALLY since there is a gay charter with a few thousand GAY passengers going there this year. EDIT=BTW....this is NOT a HAL group.....it is a PRIVATE GAY CHARTER COMPANY! This makes a differance because the charter company is well in it's right to say they do not CHOOSE to go to St Petersburg and request a different port. Of course that will all depend on what their clients (or the charter company) want and that is why I brought the topic up. I am hoping those on the cruise and in the company are thinking about this, assuming they even know about it as there is so little media coverage of it.

[shepp]

Yeah, shepp, you are a YouTube expert. Unfortunately, you have no grasp of real homophobia. And when I spoke of drama, I must now confess that I had visions of a real drama queen in my mind, and it was you.

 

Just one point about your videos, which I didn't bother with, there is a difference in Russia between government actions and what the Russian people believe and practice. There is often a disconnect and it comes from their history.

 

Wow. I really, really am on the verge of reporting your ad hominem attack, but in the spirit of your discourse, I will simply say....who the HELL do you think you are?

 

You come down on me for posting cites? This is a story with international repercussions, and you post a YouTube a video of, what, I don't know, a flash mob celebrating what looks like a straight married couple...and that proves that the Russians are happy, shiny people and all the reports of beatings and repression are what, a mirage?

 

Listen, I have been active in queer politics since Stonewall. I have been a member of the Gay Liberation Front, Queer Nation, of ACT UP, have been an organizer of the San Francisco Parade, and have published extensively on gay life and politics. I have been physically attacked. One of my friends was murdered, another put in the hospital for months. And what have you done in the service of queer rights? What - and I mean what - have you done that qualifies you to personally insult me and tell me I have no knowledge of homophobia? I told you my bona fides, some of them. What are yours?

 

You may note that I'm not calling you a single name. I hope the moderator notices that.

 

Now...I want you - I mean really want you - to tell me in what specific ways the lot of Russian queers is superior to American queers. Russia has no anti-discrimination law, gives no recognition to domestic partnerships, does not allow gay couples to adopt, regularly bans gay gatherings, and has no hate crime laws that cover gays....that's what the government does. Gangs of ultra-Orthodox and neofascist thugs bash gays and the police haul the gays away. That's what some of the Russian people do. A minority, sure, but one more organized and violent than antigay thugs over here. So I'm waiting...in what ways do Russian gays have it better? I'm perfectly willing to watch videos of a cheerful Moscow Gay Pride Parade, to read reputable reports of how good the St. Petersburg queers have it compared to those of us in New York, San Francisco, or even Wichita. Cite away - facts, not insults, are the basis for a reasonable debate.

 

And I mean it - one more ad hominem attack and I'm reporting you.

[shepp]

A Rush Limbaugh sort of thing.

 

Nice. Real nice. Here's the thing. If Limbaugh had posted a video of Sandra Fluke in a miniskirt and thigh-high boots, standing on a Georgetown streetcorner and soliciting men in cars, I - slave to evidence that I am - would have said, "Hmmm. I guess she really is a prostitute after all. Rush is, regrettably, right."

 

I posted evidence - video, photo, and text - of the beatings and repression of Russian queers, and what do I get in return? Countervailing evidence, perhaps? Documentation of how liberated Russian queers really are? Even claims the reports are untrue?

 

Nope. The best you can come up with is, "You're anti-Russian." Wow.

 

Listen, I'm half-Russian myself. But I'm all-queer, and I'd like to believe that it's more important to me to stand with my brothers and sisters around the world than to see a bunch of czarist tchotchkes. Sorry about that.

[shepp]

Both! Hey Shepp have I told you I love you lately?

 

Well, I'd say you were making my partner jealous, but hey, he and I are in an open relationship, so....

 

back at ya.

[shepp]

I spent 2 weeks in St. Petersburg and Moscow and can say without reservation that to compare Russia in terms of homophobia to Africa, the Caribbean or even the USA is way off the mark. For one thing, the more ignorant aspects of Judeo-Christianity of the west and it's colonies does not permeate Russia. There are many devout Christians, almost all of the Russian Orthodox variety, but for the most part, religion is of no consequence or importance to most Russians and certainly does not have the societal influence it does in the west.

 

Because, as I think I made clear, I like to back up my opinions with facts, I did some research and found evidence that you're right....sort of. I'll quote at length from a 2011 article in the Baltic Review out of Vilnius:

"The Russians are incredibly homophobic. Last year’s Levada Centre polls reveal that 38% of people regard homosexuality as “dissoluteness and a bad habit”, 36% think it is a “disease”. These points of view are becoming increasingly popular. Only 15% think this is just another sexual orientation that “has the same right to existence”, five per cent less than five years ago. More and more people think that homosexuals need to be “treated” (21%), “isolated from the society” (18%), and even “liquidated” (4%). 84% oppose same-sex marriages, and 82% are not going to tolerate gay pride parades in Russian cities. “A gay parade cannot be called anything but a Satanic act”, ex-Mayor of Moscow Yury Luzhkov said last year, supposedly voicing the common opinion.

 

While homophobia in the United States has a religious basis, the reasons are different in Russia. According to Gallup polls, only one third of Russians say religion is an important part of their daily life as against two thirds of Americans. Hence it is patriarchal character of Russia that is the key factor of homophobia. They can let lesbian women be, but gay men are undergoing a huge pressure. You are supposed to correspond with the picture of a “real man”, muzhik – butch, strong, and even brutal. Otherwise you risk being despised. For most of the Russians, gay men are not men at all." http://baltic-review.com/2011/11/no-country-for-gay-men/

 

So it seems to fair to say that most Russians mostly despise us not because we're not holy-moley enough, but because we're not masculine enough; when you get off your cruise ship, be sure to butch it up.

 

On the bright side, one in six Russians thinks we have a right to exist.

[jamessemaj]

Because, as I think I made clear, I like to back up my opinions with facts, I did some research and found evidence that you're right....sort of. I'll quote at length from a 2011 article in the Baltic Review out of Vilnius:

"The Russians are incredibly homophobic. Last year’s Levada Centre polls reveal that 38% of people regard homosexuality as “dissoluteness and a bad habit”, 36% think it is a “disease”. These points of view are becoming increasingly popular. Only 15% think this is just another sexual orientation that “has the same right to existence”, five per cent less than five years ago. More and more people think that homosexuals need to be “treated” (21%), “isolated from the society” (18%), and even “liquidated” (4%). 84% oppose same-sex marriages, and 82% are not going to tolerate gay pride parades in Russian cities. “A gay parade cannot be called anything but a Satanic act”, ex-Mayor of Moscow Yury Luzhkov said last year, supposedly voicing the common opinion.

 

While homophobia in the United States has a religious basis, the reasons are different in Russia. According to Gallup polls, only one third of Russians say religion is an important part of their daily life as against two thirds of Americans. Hence it is patriarchal character of Russia that is the key factor of homophobia. They can let lesbian women be, but gay men are undergoing a huge pressure. You are supposed to correspond with the picture of a “real man”, muzhik – butch, strong, and even brutal. Otherwise you risk being despised. For most of the Russians, gay men are not men at all." http://baltic-review.com/2011/11/no-country-for-gay-men/

 

So it seems to fair to say that most Russians mostly despise us not because we're not holy-moley enough, but because we're not masculine enough; when you get off your cruise ship, be sure to butch it up.

 

On the bright side, one in six Russians thinks we have a right to exist.

 

shepp, thanks, that's interesting. No offense meant to these facts, but I have some reservations. That would include the vast expanse and regions of Russia, most of which I am not familiar, the perceptions disparity between the older generations raised during the Soviet era and younger people who weren't, and as I said earlier about the disconnect between the people and the government. To me, even these facts do not change my perception of St. Petersburg as one of the most progressive, vibrant places I have been. But I call uncle. I won't challenge further (actually, I never challenged from the start, I just expressed my opinion based on my experience as was asked by the OP).

[bdjam]

Besides the fact I'm gay? You're right, I really wouldn't be - I think both Atlantis and RSVP are milking the gay community for money to put on these gay charters. Granted they bring on their own entertainment and offer benefits that non-gay charters don't offer. A lot of my friends don't cruise any other way. I just think I can get farther on a non-gay chartered cruise. And if these charter companies were responsible about the way their passengers are perceived and treated, they would choose itineraries that didn't include homophobic places, especially those that will tolerate gay people only as long as they pump money into the economy.

 

Why would you be on this ship to begin with?????

 

;)

 

Well, I'd say you were making my partner jealous, but hey, he and I are in an open relationship, so....

 

back at ya.

[shepp]

shepp, thanks, that's interesting. No offense meant to these facts, but I have some reservations. That would include the vast expanse and regions of Russia, most of which I am not familiar, the perceptions disparity between the older generations raised during the Soviet era and younger people who weren't, and as I said earlier about the disconnect between the people and the government. To me, even these facts do not change my perception of St. Petersburg as one of the most progressive, vibrant places I have been. But I call uncle. I won't challenge further (actually, I never challenged from the start, I just expressed my opinion based on my experience as was asked by the OP).

 

Well, I suppose I was the one who challenged your assertions, actually, and have no desire to drag this out further, except to concede that, yes, St. Petersburg may be an island of progressivism, Austin to the-rest-of-Russia's Texas. Still, there is that pesky law...

 

What upset me - still does - is the vicious tone of your uncalled-for personal attack on me. (Most of which, interestingly in this context, were insults regarding my masculinity, something I really couldn't care less about.)

 

But you know, I'm a MAN - I'll butch it through.

[jamessemaj]

Well, I suppose I was the one who challenged your assertions, actually, and have no desire to drag this out further, except to concede that, yes, St. Petersburg may be an island of progressivism, Austin to the-rest-of-Russia's Texas. Still, there is that pesky law...

 

What upset me - still does - is the vicious tone of your uncalled-for personal attack on me. (Most of which, interestingly in this context, were insults regarding my masculinity, something I really couldn't care less about.)

 

But you know, I'm a MAN - I'll butch it through.

 

We are of different views and in different places regarding homosexual equality and rights. I admit the drama queen reference was cheap, but it was only a reaction to your dismissal of my view and my position and your own strong assertion of your views in response to CA-ONT, with whom i sided.

 

Based on the evidence you provided regarding homophobia in Russia, your masculinity and manhood and butch should serve you well. I am just me, a little masculine, a little feminine, and I don't really care if it causes questions, which I answer as I choose, in my way.

 

My best to you.

[jamessemaj]

shepp, the edit wouldn't allow me to define my comment about homosexual equality, etc. More precisely, I mean the means of achieving that equality.

[Boytjie]

And if these charter companies were responsible about the way their passengers are perceived and treated, they would choose itineraries that didn't include homophobic places, especially those that will tolerate gay people only as long as they pump money into the economy.

 

Do you believe Atlantis and RSVP frequent homophobic places? Which ones? Yes, there have been incidents at some ports usually when they visit the first Time (RSVP in Grand Cayman; Rosie's cruise in Bermuda) but they usually don't go back. I can't recall any calling on Jamaica lately (if the ever did).

[shepp]

I admit the drama queen reference was cheap, but it was only a reaction to your dismissal of my view and my position and your own strong assertion of your views in response to CA-ONT, with whom i sided.

 

Well, here's the thing. I was already somewhat acquainted with the status of queers in Russia. I'd seen a couple of bone-chilling documentaries at the SF Gay Film Fest on what's been happening to gay activists there. I knew about the banning of parades, of physical attacks on not only Russians, but on foreigners Pater Tatchell and Dan Choi, and I'd been following the St. Petersburg situation. So when you asserted that Russia was less homophobic than the US, I was gobsmacked.

 

Let me go back to my Burma trip. Years ago, I spent a month there as an independent traveler. The people I saw seemed relatively happy and well-fed, the cities ramshackle but OK. I saw nothing as miserable as things I saw in India. There were anti-Western billboards and soldiers around, but not once did I see any evidence of slave labor. But I knew there was slave labor there. I knew it from multiple reports and plenty of testimony. Now, if someone had brought up slave labor in Burma back then, I wouldn't have said, "Well, I spent a month there as a tourist, and there was no slave labor. In fact, the average citizen is freer than the average Indian." I really liked Burma, but wouldn't have dismissed reports of atrocities there as "common propaganda." I knew about the situation in Burma but decided to go anyway, basically because I'd been wanting to see Burma, not to help make a change there. My denying the bad news would have been self serving. And I did notice that, when asked, you didn't back up your claim and furnish examples of how Russian queers were better off than American LGBT folks. And that, I guess, is why I was dismissive of your position. Sorry if my tone irritated you.

 

We may all differ on political tactics, of course. But I truly believe that being a friendly, well-behaved day tripper in Saint Petersburg will do little or nothing to improve things there. And how, in fact, would you appear to the locals as "good, deserving gay man?" Walk hand-in-hand with your boyfriend and risk getting bashed by neo-fascists? Even your wearing a "Gay Rights Now!" t-shirt might, though you're not Russian, bring down some sort of problem, same as American Dan Choi got beaten and thrown in a Moscow jail.

 

The law (as well as similar laws in other Russian cities) needs to be overturned, now, so Russian activists aren't persecuted even more stringently than they have been thus far. Pressure needs to be brought to bear, and if that includes a boycott, fine. Then we all can think about changing hearts and minds, including being real nice to Russian taxi drivers and hotel clerks.

[sej67]

Shepp, just curious what there was in Burma to spend a whole month there. I'm not too familiar with that country and its tourist sites, but I wold have thought a day or two there would be plenty for most of us.

[ONT-CA]

http://www.waytorussia.net/SaintPetersburg/ClubsGay.html

 

Reminds me of Montreal back in the 70's when there was lots of police brutality. But in the spirit of "we shall overcome" it is now one of the most vibrant openly gay cities in the world. It takes time to achieve that and that is what will happen in St. Petersburg. Boycotting their gay community will do little to assist. They need our support and being there for them is more meaningful than hearing about those who would stay home .