If St Petersburg Outlaws "GAY" will Atlantis still go?

[jamessemaj]

shepp, you do overwhelm me with your much more activist orientation than I have. You mentioned earlier that I must not have been at the gay parade in Moscow, and you are not only correct, but if I had been in the vicinity at the time I would have watched at safe distance. I have no doubt that you would have jumped into the middle of it.

 

I applaud your activism, but it is not me. I am a wimp in that regard. I just like travel and experiencing other cultures and Russia is one of my favorites. In conversations with Russians, I found a completely different and very open view of all sexual matters, which again, I attribute to the absence of religious fervor.

 

I like Russia and Russians and whatever happens about this law, I will visit again when I can. The only hindrance to going more often is the visa hassle.

 

I continue to wish you the best.

[movie buff]

It is quite possible that if this is signed into law that knowing this is a gay charter they may not even let the ship into port or if in port allow passengers off the ship. If something like this were to happen there would be nothing the cruise line could do but move on. So sad we have to deal with this kind of thinking in this day and age. But we deal with it in the united states on many levels too I am sad to say.

[shepp]

Shepp, just curious what there was in Burma to spend a whole month there. I'm not too familiar with that country and its tourist sites, but I wold have thought a day or two there would be plenty for most of us.

 

Depends on what you like to do. I love visiting South Asian and Southeast Asian countries. Great food, amazing architecture, nice people. (I just got back from six weeks in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, including a full week roaming around the ancient temples of Angkor. Also have spent a month in Sri Lanka, three months total in India. My favorite part of the world, really.)

 

Burma, in large part because of its political isolation, is still (or at least was) untouched by some of the distortions of mass tourism - few or no pizza parlors, KFCs, girlie bars, stores selling luxury goods to tourists. Visiting was still an adventure, albeit one with poor infrastructure. I was really Someplace Else. Four weeks seeing fascinating cities with colonial pasts, lovely scenery, amazing pagodas, and in particular, the temple city of Bagan, one of the most awe-inspiring places I've been.

 

But now, with the welcome relaxation of oppression, I suppose it's only a matter of time till Diamonds International sets up shop.

[shepp]

I have no doubt that you would have jumped into the middle of it.

 

Actually, I'm a bit of a physical coward, I'm afraid. Back in the day, I was at the White Night Riots following the assassination of San Francisco supervisor Harvey Milk, but stayed semi-safely on the periphery. Confronting neo-fascists is, at my age, a sport best engaged in sparingly. ;)

[shepp]

It takes time to achieve that and that is what will happen in St. Petersburg. Boycotting their gay community will do little to assist. They need our support and being there for them is more meaningful than hearing about those who would stay home .

 

Well, yes, but...no one is suggesting "boycotting the gay community," unless queers are now in charge of collecting port charges and admission fees to the Hermitage. Wearing a T-shirt that said "Gay rights now" in Russian whilst on shore would be a show of support, but will now be illegal. Patronizing openly gay-owned business would be a means of support, but one assumes those businesses will now be afoul of the law. Going to meetings of Russian pro-gay organizations? Will there be any meetings of pro-gay organizations? And going to gay rallies? Forget it, unless you relish jail time. But then, what activists are most seeking is visibility and the laying bare of repression, so perhaps a headline reading, "500 Gay Cruisers Arrested at St. Petersburg Demonstration" really would help.

 

In this context, I think, "being there for them" might have more to do with sending Russian-related support to ILGA or Human Rights Watch or signing an online petition - http://www.allout.org/en/stpetersburg-dont-go - than visiting Russia as a law-abiding tourist. In any case, it's really up to the Russian queer activists to decide how we best can help.

 

And let's face it: there's a big difference between Trudeau, who decriminalized gay sex, and Putin, who...who's Putin. Let's say, hypothetically, that Expo 67 had been Expo 77 instead. In what way would a visit to the Expo by me, a queer American tourist, have furthered LGBT rights in Quebec? In what way is "Unless you give rights to queers, I threaten to spend money in your city and act real nice" a viable strategy for change?

[ONT-CA]

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends..." is to me very much akin to your approach to the battle for gay equal rights. Lots of bravado but does it really achieve the end result any faster. The St. Petersburg “law” will surely be defeated not unlike Proposion 8 in California. Remember both were brought about by democracy. Already a step has been taken against the perpertrators of this law

http://rt.com/politics/russian-gay-activist-politician-305/

The freedoms we enjoy here in Canada were brought about by working to get the right people into position and then getting them elected. A point that might be lost on current political activities.

[shepp]

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends..." is to me very much akin to your approach to the battle for gay equal rights. Lots of bravado but does it really achieve the end result any faster. The St. Petersburg “law” will surely be defeated not unlike Proposion 8 in California. Remember both were brought about by democracy. Already a step has been taken against the perpertrators of this law. ]

 

 

Apples and oranges.

 

First, a bit of historical accuracy: despite a majority of Californians now being in favor of same-sex marriage, Prop 8 is still in effect in the state. Really it is. And it's only in the process of being overturned because it went to the 9th Circuit Court, arguably the most liberal court in the country. If it gets before the U.S. Supreme Court, with its conservative Catholics, it might well be upheld after all. There may be an expensive electoral campaign to overturn it. SSM may be vindicated at the ballot box. Meanwhile, for the past 3 1/2 years, my partner and I haven't been able to wed.

 

Just as right now, Russian queers are being beaten, arrested, and silenced.

 

"Will surely be defeated" is based on what, besides your hope? You think that the Russians, who are, according to the poll I cited, "incredibly homophobic," are going to vote to overturn the thing? Or that some imaginary judge somewhere will declare the law null on the basis of a nonexistent protection in the Russian constitution?

 

As I said, outside pressure might well stiffen the resolve of some nationalists to oppose foreign decadence. But your alternative is what, exactly? Sitting around and waiting, right? And going to see Fabergé eggs?

 

You cited the "spirit of We Shall Overcome." Well, just to be historically clear, Dr. King organized the Montgomery bus boycott. He did not head up a "Visit Alabama and Act Real Nice" campaign. Gandhi led a boycott of British goods, not a "Tour India" movement. Anti-apartheid activists led a boycott of South Africa, asking everyone including tourists to stay away. If you think of that all as empty "bravado," then let me ask you straight out: What are you doing to support the Russian queers? What, specifically, do you/have you ever done to further LGBT rights? If I know where you're coming from, what your analysis and experience are, it will be easier to discuss this meaningfully with you.

 

In the meantime, Atlantis is still advertising two fabulous queer days in delightful St. Petersburg.

[ONT-CA]

You cited the "spirit of We Shall Overcome." Well, just to be historically clear, Dr. King organized the Montgomery bus boycott. He did not head up a "Visit Alabama and Act Real Nice" campaign. Gandhi led a boycott of British goods, not a "Tour India" movement. Anti-apartheid activists led a boycott of South Africa, asking everyone including tourists to stay away. .

 

All these movements of resistance were peaceful, done with determination but with dignity. Take to the ramparts if you must but these examples prove the point that change is brought about by none violence which has and will win the day.

[shepp]

All these movements of resistance were peaceful, done with determination but with dignity. Take to the ramparts if you must but these examples prove the point that change is brought about by none violence which has and will win the day.

 

You know, I've reached the point where I'm prone to think, "I have no idea where he's coming from" and just bow out of this discussion. Honestly, the only reasons I've stayed with it this far is because it's an important topic and I enjoy discussing it, and because I figure others besides you and I might be reading this.

 

But OK, I'll bite. "Take to the ramparts?" What the bloody heck does that refer to? Who has in any manner proposed violent tactics? Or even physical self-defense (which would be morally justified in this situation, but strategically unwise)? Or are you calling the Russian queers who take to the streets with placards, risking their very lives, insufficiently "dignified?" Sigh.

 

So now, after opposing the idea of a boycott against St. Petersburg, I take it you're in favor of it? Well, I guess I've convinced you, and I can move on to truly weighty topics, like dress codes on formal night.

[ONT-CA]

[soldham]

I will be heading to Cameroon for a few weeks to help Rotary International develop a 5 year project plan for action to help the people of this country. Gay acts are illegal in this country but I feel that refusing to go based on decisions by someone(s) likely far removed from the people I will be enaging with will do no one any benefit.

[shepp]

I will be heading to Cameroon for a few weeks to help Rotary International develop a 5 year project plan for action to help the people of this country. Gay acts are illegal in this country but I feel that refusing to go based on decisions by someone(s) likely far removed from the people I will be enaging with will do no one any benefit.

 

I hope things go well for you. What you're doing is far removed from disembarking from a ship and going sightseeing. Be careful out there.

[jamessemaj]

I will be heading to Cameroon for a few weeks to help Rotary International develop a 5 year project plan for action to help the people of this country. Gay acts are illegal in this country but I feel that refusing to go based on decisions by someone(s) likely far removed from the people I will be enaging with will do no one any benefit.

 

Boycotts may have a place, but I don't see it in regard to homosexual rights and personal interaction. Chavez was successful in the lettuce boycott in gaining economic benefits, and I applaud the sponsor withdrawal of support for Limbaugh.

 

Those are purely economic and don't involve personal interaction. The US boycott's of Cuba, I believe have been self defeating and extended the communist regime beyond it's normal course.

 

Having said that, I say again, Russia is not Africa and is not the Carribean. I truly believe that the colonial religious indoctrination of those uneducated and superstitious cultures are beyond any hope I would have for any equality for anybody other than the elite thieves, let alone such degenerates as a queer such as me.

 

But I wish you well on your mission.

[keithm]

I hope things go well for you. What you're doing is far removed from disembarking from a ship and going sightseeing. Be careful out there.

Didn'y you spend a month in Burma(Myanmar)? I'd say it's probably the same when it comes to gay rights.

[soldham]

I hope things go well for you. What you're doing is far removed from disembarking from a ship and going sightseeing. Be careful out there.

 

I will admit to more than a little trepidation. Having grown up in a relatively tolerant city in South Western Ontario I have had little exposure to such things - though this was spray painted on my vehicle last year....

 

Thinking it may be best to put a bandaid over the rainbow flag tattoo on my ankle. And thank you - I intend to be VERY careful....

[shepp]

Didn'y you spend a month in Burma(Myanmar)? I'd say it's probably the same when it comes to gay rights.

 

Did you read my previous post on that? I had/have mixed feelings on that. We did in fact defy a boycott. Before going, we planned to spend as little money with government-run businesses as possible (something that had previously been impossible, as the junta had required visitors book through the government). I think we succeeded in doing that, spending money directly with economically deprived Burmese citizens, but the government no doubt still had its fingers in every till. (Actually, there were also some Burmese activists who urged visitors to visit and help locals.) And there was no active, highly visible anti-gay pogrom going on.

 

In any case - not to self-justify - the economi boycott by US corporations had more effect than our not going would have, as did the pro-junta support rendered by China, of which Burma is a client state. Comes to that, China is pretty horrendous on the human rights front, and we all trade we them. Heck, I'm typing this on a MacBook Air.

 

I'm not saying what I did was right, or that I would do it again. Neither am I saying that what we did wasn't in some sense self indulgent. However, I didn't go on public forums and deny the seriousness of the situation there, either, just because I had an enjoyable, safe month touring the country.

 

Full disclosure: six years ago, my mom took me on a cruise that spent a day in Ocho Rios. Unlike some of you, I had a marvelous time in Jamaica. Would not though, at this point, do it again.

 

Oh, and an update. The mayor defied international pressure and did, in fact, sign the bill into law. St. Petersburg is no place for queers.

[Retty2Go]

Having said that, I say again, Russia is not Africa and is not the Carribean. I truly believe that the colonial religious indoctrination of those uneducated and superstitious cultures are beyond any hope I would have for any equality for anybody other than the elite thieves, let alone such degenerates as a queer such as me.

 

Yes, you have written that twice in this thread, and I am unable to ignore it this time. It is an ironic perspective coming from someone in one of the most religious, uneducated, and superstitious regions in this former colony.

 

Did you click any of those links in Shepp's earlier post? I suppose those women praying and throwing holy water, and the men throwing punches at demonstrators in that St. Petersburg square are non-religiously motivated in their hatred, educated, and not superstitious? I suppose there is hope for equality in a country so notoriously racist that the State Department has warned US citizens of color that "unprovoked, violent harassment against racial and ethnic minorities regularly occurs throughout." And I presume that "elite thieves" is a term that does not apply to members of the Russian justice hierarchy who, not only turn a blind eye to violence against gays, but are so corrupt that the State Department warns certain US citizens that, "because of their complexion [they] are also at risk for harassment by police authorities?"

 

Even if I was lacking in social consciousness - which I am not, thanks to leaders like Shepp during that wonderful period of activism in SF - and could choose "beauty" over human rights, there's that nagging little issue of possibly being beaten to death by racists. Gay marriage is legal in South Africa, so you are right, Russia is definitely not that part of Africa. Enjoy those eggs, and those wonderful Russian people.

[jamessemaj]

Retty2Go,

 

I did check out shepp's links and verified that I already knew what they would say.

 

I did not meet any of the bashers in Russia. The people I did meet and interact with were the most civil and courteous I have ever met. As to the racism, during part of my stay I had a driver from Nigeria and encountered no bashing or even second glances, although he did acknowledge that he felt threatened at times.

 

This will also probably set you off, and I won't go into the details of it, and it has nothing to do with race, but that Nigerian driver was one of the few (not the only) obnoxious people I met in Russia that I truly wanted to not be around.

 

You are not convincing me to change my views and I know I am not changing yours either. C'est La Vie.

[Retty2Go]

I will never say La Vie!

 

I am glad that your driver's worst fears were not realized while he was in your employ during your short stay. Surely, one's feeling threatened could result in displays of obnoxious behavior. So, albeit indirectly, maybe you did encounter racism, after all.

 

It is regrettable that racial and anti-gay violence and brutality can't change your mind.

 

Retty2Go,

 

I did check out shepp's links and verified that I already knew what they would say.

 

I did not meet any of the bashers in Russia. The people I did meet and interact with were the most civil and courteous I have ever met. As to the racism, during part of my stay I had a driver from Nigeria and encountered no bashing or even second glances, although he did acknowledge that he felt threatened at times.

 

This will also probably set you off, and I won't go into the details of it, and it has nothing to do with race, but that Nigerian driver was one of the few (not the only) obnoxious people I met in Russia that I truly wanted to not be around.

 

You are not convincing me to change my views and I know I am not changing yours either. C'est La Vie.

[GaNavy]

I will never say La Vie!

 

I am glad that your driver's worst fears were not realized while he was in your employ during your short stay. Surely, one's feeling threatened could result in displays of obnoxious behavior. So, albeit indirectly, maybe you did encounter racism, after all.

 

It is regrettable that racial and anti-gay violence and brutality can't change your mind.

 

Granted I'm new to this discussion, but it seems to me that most of us, were we determined enough to avoid countries where "racial and anti-gay violence and brutality" are not unknown, would be unable to go home at night.

 

I would never miss the chance to see as grand a place as St. Petersburg on this basis. But I have been out of the closet long enough (1975) that I don't need to have my identity known/validated everywhere I go. Yes, "gay" is part of the "who" I am rather than the "what" - but so are a lot of other things.

[keithm]

Did you read my previous post on that? I had/have mixed feelings on that. We did in fact defy a boycott. Before going, we planned to spend as little money with government-run businesses as possible (something that had previously been impossible, as the junta had required visitors book through the government). I think we succeeded in doing that, spending money directly with economically deprived Burmese citizens, but the government no doubt still had its fingers in every till. (Actually, there were also some Burmese activists who urged visitors to visit and help locals.) And there was no active, highly visible anti-gay pogrom going on.

 

In any case - not to self-justify - the economi boycott by US corporations had more effect than our not going would have, as did the pro-junta support rendered by China, of which Burma is a client state. Comes to that, China is pretty horrendous on the human rights front, and we all trade we them. Heck, I'm typing this on a MacBook Air.

 

I'm not saying what I did was right, or that I would do it again. Neither am I saying that what we did wasn't in some sense self indulgent. However, I didn't go on public forums and deny the seriousness of the situation there, either, just because I had an enjoyable, safe month touring the country.

 

Full disclosure: six years ago, my mom took me on a cruise that spent a day in Ocho Rios. Unlike some of you, I had a marvelous time in Jamaica. Would not though, at this point, do it again.

 

Oh, and an update. The mayor defied international pressure and did, in fact, sign the bill into law. St. Petersburg is no place for queers.

The law(as I've read it)states that it is illegal to promote gay lifestyles to minors. It doesn't outlaw gay people. That being said, I'm sure it will be a spring board for more widespread homophobia there. As to Burma, sorry but I wouldn't go anywhere near a country that has had such repression. If something ever happened, how would you have gotten out?? I certainly wouldn't rely on the US Consulate to do much for us anywhere. Sorry, but I have no intention of going to any repressive country where I & my partner could be in harm's way.

[Retty2Go]

How do you validate another's identity? I came out of the closet two years after you, and gay is who I am. I have been in a relationship for 30 years, and other than a marriage certificate that entitles us to the liberties heterosexual couples enjoy, I don't need anyone's validation. There is no other country with a state department warning against violence distinctly directed to people of color than the one that stands for Russia. Based upon your apologist stance, that obviously does not effect you.

 

Granted I'm new to this discussion, but it seems to me that most of us, were we determined enough to avoid countries where "racial and anti-gay violence and brutality" are not unknown, would be unable to go home at night.

 

I would never miss the chance to see as grand a place as St. Petersburg on this basis. But I have been out of the closet long enough (1975) that I don't need to have my identity known/validated everywhere I go. Yes, "gay" is part of the "who" I am rather than the "what" - but so are a lot of other things.

[CanadaTraveller]

I have to question putting money towards a state that does not protect the rights of its gay citizens. Cruising to the port will put cash directly in the hands of the state. So even staying on the ship puts money in these people's hands. Add to that, in the event of an emergency, you are already in a hostile society, so pretty sure that with state sanctioned violence and discrimination, police and healthcare support should be interesting to say the least. That kind of adrenaline rush, I can do without.

 

What bothers me Is that St. Petersburg is not courting the pink dollar; Atlantis is. I have to question the ethics of their not going to another port. And I also have to question the cruise lines not standing up for both their customers and their staff. But then of course, if there are gays willing and happy to hand over the cash, it is hard for for a corporation to take the high road.

 

My partner and I were planning this cruise to Russia next year, but for me it is off the books. But I will also be watching how the tourist industry and the international community responds as well. I have money to spend on travel, but for me, it has to be ethical.

[shepp]

The law(as I've read it)states that it is illegal to promote gay lifestyles to minors. It doesn't outlaw gay people. That being said, I'm sure it will be a spring board for more widespread homophobia there. As to Burma, sorry but I wouldn't go anywhere near a country that has had such repression. If something ever happened, how would you have gotten out?? I certainly wouldn't rely on the US Consulate to do much for us anywhere. Sorry, but I have no intention of going to any repressive country where I & my partner could be in harm's way.

 

Actually, the most frightening travel experience I've had was in the world's largest democracy, India, being stuck in Delhi during the riots following Indira Gandhi's assassination. Couldn't get out of the city, much less the country. But because I wasn't a Sikh, I wasn't a target. I also, back in the days when the Middle East was less fraught, spent a few weeks in Daddy Assad's Syria. Horribly repressive state, but because there was no way of identifying me as Jewish, once again, not a target. Same in Burma. I didn't hand out leaflets in support of Aung San Suu Kyi, therefore not a target.

 

St. Petersburg? Um....

 

When I was in Vietnam this past winter, my partner had a medical emergency in Ho Chi Minh City. We went to a clinic and a hospital as a couple, and I identified myself as his partner. No problem whatsoever, not even a teensy bit of attitude. I'm glad something similar didn't happen in St. Petersburg...where we are, manifestly, a target.

[GaNavy]

How do you validate another's identity? I came out of the closet two years after you, and gay is who I am. I have been in a relationship for 30 years, and other than a marriage certificate that entitles us to the liberties heterosexual couples enjoy, I don't need anyone's validation. There is no other country with a state department warning against violence distinctly directed to people of color than the one that stands for Russia. Based upon your apologist stance, that obviously does not effect you.

 

My point was that, if I had the chance to go to St. Petersburg, I'd go and take my chances. Acts of gay bashing and racially-based violence are known to occur with some frequency in the United States, but it's not apparent from your posts that you're anxious to move to another country.

 

One's sexual preference may or may not be at the absolute center of that person's sense of identity - to each his or her own. As for my being an apologist, I don't need to prove my bona fides to strangers on a message board.