NCL isn't safe for kids!

[dsrdsrdsr]

OMG! Where did I say the child had the tendency to self-harm??? Where did I say that I believed an autistic child is entirely incompetent at everything???

You found it hard to believe that this child could be safe. What did you mean? Either you meant the child was extremely likely to hurt himself, or that he was extremely likely to be hurt by someone else. Or is there a third explanation?

[rachelfran]

You found it hard to believe that this child could be safe. What did you mean? Either you meant the child was extremely likely to hurt himself, or that he was extremely likely to be hurt by someone else. Or is there a third explanation?

 

Seriously, dsrdstdsr - save yourself.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

You found it hard to believe that this child could be safe. What did you mean? Either you meant the child was extremely likely to hurt himself, or that he was extremely likely to be hurt by someone else. Or is there a third explanation?

 

The OP posted their perception that the child was lucky that the room steward found him in his room and stayed there watching him until they appeared. Does anyone know of any room steward who would stay and watch a 10 year old child who is sitting in his/her own cabin playing an ipad? That told me that there was a reason the child needed constant supervision - though it did not tell me the reason.

 

As for being harmed - my children were not allowed to sign themselves out of the kid's club when they were 10, just as they were not allowed to wander our small town when they were 10. Cruise ships are just like many small cities - no one does back ground checks on your fellow passengers.

 

I was once stunned to see my 4th grade daughter walking a tall wall that boarded a pool on one side but a sheer drop off of about 20 feet on the other at a very nice, safe, resort we once visited. I was at the pool with her, reading a book, and looked up to see her walking the wall, a wall not intended to be walked by anyone. I once saw children climbing the glass part of the funnel on the Miracle (not mine, thank God). Children can find danger anywhere!!!

 

Perhaps my use of the word "extremely" was a little over the top, however, if OP was that upset that his 10 year old child "escaped", I trusted him to know whether it was dangerous for his child - and the OP appeared to believe it was.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

Seriously, dsrdstdsr - save yourself.

 

Wow - just wow. Since I don't agree with you, I'm not entitled to voice my opinion?

 

After all, what would I, a mother who raised a son with ADHD, ODD and OCD, know about any of this???

 

Wow!!!

[mmbrocker]

I don't think there's any need to "get used to us", as you put it. The increase in diagnosis does not mean that there are more ASD people about, just that diagnoses have changed. 1 in 54 boys now have a label to say they're different; in the past, the 1 in 54 boys still existed, they grew into adults, they just didn't (and don't) have a label. They're just folks, like the rest of us. Some of the 1 in 54 are undoubtedly handicapped in a way that will prevent them living an independent adult life. Some are not.

 

Whether this label helps the boys to learn to behave in an adult manner in the adult world when the time comes, that's a subject for a whole different (non-cruise related) thread. But I doubt the attitude of "get used to us" will help the ASD boys get a job. It's not like the other 53 boys who don't have a label are a set of clones; they're all different, they all have to learn to get along with each other.

 

While I do believe that an increased awareness of the ASD spectrum has certainly caused this number to grow .. it is absolutely NOT a matter of just more diagnoses. There are more children with ASD now then there ever have been. EVER.

 

Forgive my snarky flippant response earlier. My greater point remains though. Almost 2% of our male population (and a fair amount of the female population) will be diagnosed with autism this year. ASD children are everywhere. Some will need aides, some will not. Some will be cognitively delayed, many will not. Some will have trouble verbalizing, some will not.

 

The deal is, children's services on cruise ships will have to learn to deal with all of our children of all different types and personalities. The solution is not to never allow an ASD child, even one who wanders, out of kids clubs. IF the expectation is that a child of that age, regardless of need, should not be able to leave the club without permission from his parents, then he shouldn't be able to leave. Period.

[mmbrocker]

The question is whether, if seeing the door unattended, your son would leave without you signing him out. If the answer is yes, then your child does not belong in a kid's club. If your child would stand there until someone comes to let him out, then kid's club might be a good place for them.

 

So no mischievous "normal" child should ever be in kids club?

Or..what if, while your child is waiting for a worker to arrive they are snatched by an opportunistic lunatic?

 

Keeping track of wandering 10 year olds is their JOB. That's the point.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

Keeping track of wandering 10 year olds is their JOB. That's the point.

 

And that's where we disagree. Their JOB is to provide "safe" entertainment to children who are left in their care. (or at least entertainment that is as safe as going to a school activity might be). If their JOB were to keep track of wandering 10 year old's, then 10 year old's would not be allowed to wander the ship - they would be required to either be with parents or in kid's club.

 

Most 10 year old children could be placed in kid's club by their parents with the admonition that he/she will NOT leave the room without being checked out by the parent. Some 10 year old children can not or will not obey that rule, and those children should not be foisted on cruise ship staff who are not capable of providing the additional care the child needs. Only the parent knows their child. As I said before, my son would have thought getting out of kid's club when he wasn't supposed to was a challenge, and he would have proven the staff wrong every time by finding a way out. Therefore, my son did not go to any type of "kid's club". Period. Because I knew he wasn't safe there.

[mmbrocker]

And that's where we disagree. Their JOB is to provide "safe" entertainment to children who are left in their care. (or at least entertainment that is as safe as going to a school activity might be). If their JOB were to keep track of wandering 10 year old's, then 10 year old's would not be allowed to wander the ship - they would be required to either be with parents or in kid's club.

 

Most 10 year old children could be placed in kid's club by their parents with the admonition that he/she will NOT leave the room without being checked out by the parent. Some 10 year old children can not or will not obey that rule, and those children should not be foisted on cruise ship staff who are not capable of providing the additional care the child needs. Only the parent knows their child. As I said before, my son would have thought getting out of kid's club when he wasn't supposed to was a challenge, and he would have proven the staff wrong every time by finding a way out. Therefore, my son did not go to any type of "kid's club". Period. Because I knew he wasn't safe there.

 

I get that having a child with ODD you have a completely different perspective. My child with ASD colors my world view as well. We both are parents who care very deeply for our children - as I'm sure the OP does as well.

 

Here is the deal. If you go a few pages back, you'll see another parent who complained of serious neglect of the sign in area. We're not talking about a child who had to work hard to get out of the play area. I don't know this particular child, but I can guesstimate that he is a wanderer (not an uncommon ASD trait), as opposed to an escape artist. Frankly, it isn't really tough to keep a wanderer in the club. Reasonable adult supervision of the entrance, which is supposed to be happening anyhow, would likely have prevented the whole event.

 

Remember, he had been in there on prior days. The family was told he would be cared for. The cruise line staff was well aware of his needs and voice no concern to the parents. The OP had every reason to believe he would be safe in the club and there upon his return from dinner.

 

Reading this thread, the parents would LOVE to know what went wrong. The fact that they've been denied access to video speaks volumes to me. They've requested for weeks an explanation of what happened. Its also a HUGE red flag to me that NCL wants an NDA from the OP.

 

Just don't be so quick to blame the special needs parent in every single situation involving a SN child. Sometimes, like in this case, the cruise line actually IS at fault.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

I get that having a child with ODD you have a completely different perspective. My child with ASD colors my world view as well. We both are parents who care very deeply for our children - as I'm sure the OP does as well.

 

Here is the deal. If you go a few pages back, you'll see another parent who complained of serious neglect of the sign in area. We're not talking about a child who had to work hard to get out of the play area. I don't know this particular child, but I can guesstimate that he is a wanderer (not an uncommon ASD trait), as opposed to an escape artist. Frankly, it isn't really tough to keep a wanderer in the club. Reasonable adult supervision of the entrance, which is supposed to be happening anyhow, would likely have prevented the whole event.

 

Remember, he had been in there on prior days. The family was told he would be cared for. The cruise line staff was well aware of his needs and voice no concern to the parents. The OP had every reason to believe he would be safe in the club and there upon his return from dinner.

 

Reading this thread, the parents would LOVE to know what went wrong. The fact that they've been denied access to video speaks volumes to me. They've requested for weeks an explanation of what happened. Its also a HUGE red flag to me that NCL wants an NDA from the OP.

 

Just don't be so quick to blame the special needs parent in every single situation involving a SN child. Sometimes, like in this case, the cruise line actually IS at fault.

 

I'm sorry my post came across as trying to blame the parent - that wasn't my intention at all. As an attorney, the cruise line refusing to allow access to video or to require an NDA in exchange for a cruise credit isn't at all surprising to me. If the cruise line doesn't have an explanation, there is nothing to give, but without seeing the agreement that I remember having to sign when my children went to kid's clubs, it is impossible to know if the cruise line did anything wrong. I've never cruised on NCL so I'm not familiar with the document or any waivers the parents signed, so I'm not quick to blame the cruise line - in fact, I'm not trying to blame anyone.

[mmbrocker]

However, it is a parent's responsibility to make sure that the environment the child is being left in is safe for that particular child. Care situations in most public venues are simply not set up for any child, special needs or otherwise, who cannot or does not follow the rules. The kid's club should not be put into the position of having to pay more attention to one child than they do the group as a whole. If a child cannot function safely without attention greater than the others in the room, the child should not be placed in the situation. It is not fair to the child, to the other children, or to the caregivers.

 

That told me that there was a reason the child needed constant supervision - though it did not tell me the reason.

 

Perhaps my use of the word "extremely" was a little over the top, however, if OP was that upset that his 10 year old child "escaped", I trusted him to know whether it was dangerous for his child - and the OP appeared to believe it was.

 

The question is whether, if seeing the door unattended, your son would leave without you signing him out. If the answer is yes, then your child does not belong in a kid's club. If your child would stand there until someone comes to let him out, then kid's club might be a good place for them.

 

Parents are the people ultimately responsible for their children's behavior and for their children's safety. At least that was the way I raised my children. You are welcome to disagree and to trust others to care as much about your child's safety as you do. Personally, I would not have left my son in the kid's clubs at that age, because he would absolutely walk out if the door were left unattended. My daughters attended the kid's clubs throughout their life. Each child was treated differently based upon their needs. But that's just me

 

Most 10 year old children could be placed in kid's club by their parents with the admonition that he/she will NOT leave the room without being checked out by the parent. Some 10 year old children can not or will not obey that rule, and those children should not be foisted on cruise ship staff who are not capable of providing the additional care the child needs. Only the parent knows their child. As I said before, my son would have thought getting out of kid's club when he wasn't supposed to was a challenge, and he would have proven the staff wrong every time by finding a way out. Therefore, my son did not go to any type of "kid's club". Period. Because I knew he wasn't safe there.

 

I'm sorry my post came across as trying to blame the parent - that wasn't my intention at all.

 

in fact, I'm not trying to blame anyone.

 

Well.. you sure had me fooled.

[mmbrocker]

aaannnd with that I've officially become an internet lunatic. I'm officially dropping out of this one. Good conversation ... good night!

[San_Antonio_Ex]

Well.. you sure had me fooled.

 

Stating that the ultimate responsibility for a child's safety lies with the parent, is NOT blaming the parent. But take it that way if it makes you feel better.

[carygirl]

I am a teacher. I watch upwards of 30 kids in a class. I teach inclusion which means we integrate some special needs children including autism. I have never had a child leave my classroom without me knowing why. If that did happen, it would certainly be my fault and not the child's or the parent's.

 

If a child with autism can leave the kids club without anyone noticing, then I'm sure a child without autism can do the same. This problem effects all children.

 

A serious issue has been brought to the attention of NCL and hopefully they will make policy changes and learn from it.

[Warmer Climes]

First, the Epic's kids club staff was remiss. I think any parents would be beside themselves if this happened to them.

 

Second, the OP's assertion that "NCL isn't safe for kids!" is hyperbole.

[kerrytens]

Please pardon the fact that I have not read through this entire thread but I am well aware of this situation.

 

I know the security that you have to go through in order to get your child in and out of the kid's club on the Epic. I also realize that there would have to be another 'emergency' exit door (or two??) for safety reasons. If that is how Ben escaped, I'm horrified to think that no such alarm went off within the area to alert the staff.

 

Yes, I'm just speculating here but that is only because I remember the entrance/exit area. I can't see how any child could just walk out of that area. I could be way off base though (and this is certainly not directed at the OP) as I've never cruised during a holiday when there are more children onboard. I'm just throwing out another scenario that perhaps should be visited by the cruise line.

 

OP, I am very glad to hear that Ben is fine. You have raised an important issue here and I'm truly hoping it will bring along some sweeping changes to how ALL cruise line's look after our kids.

[kerrytens]

For parents with autism...

 

Correct me if I am wrong but I have been around children with autism and the common complaint from the parents has been that they don't feel comfortable in new situations and aren't interested in group activities. They generally don't like change. They prefer solitary pursuits.

 

So I'm not really grasping why parents would ever leave their children in a cruise ship youth program. It doesn't seem in the interest of the autistic child- quite the contrary.

 

If you look at the common traits in all autistic people- they don't fare well in this type of environment. So what makes parents think that they would?

As the parent of a child with autism, I'd like to respond this as there are some interesting thoughts in here. Many people feel that it is best to keep your child within their 'comfort' zone but from all that I've learned from my daughter's ABA training is that you need to push them, albeit slowly (as a parent, you will know the threshold point - just don't go beyond that until you are certain you can get them through it). They will never learn how to cope with change if they are never given the opportunity.

 

My daughter has learned so many coping abilities on her own because of the fact that I continue to push her to learn. Heck, her first cruise was an attempt on my part to move her forward - was it a resounding success? Nope, but we all learned a few things. On the Epic, she totally came out of her shell and had zero issues with things that bothered her the first time.

 

So, back to the question at hand - why would you put your child in an uncomfortable position? To help them grow. My everyday life is way more regimented than the average Joe, I'd bet but my child also knows that things can and will change up. Given some warning, she excels at getting through it. No warning, it is tougher but nothing like it used to be:D

[dwjoe]

I've read most of this thread and the other one linked to the CC news article.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1780495

 

The primary responsibility lies with NCL. A child should not be able to walk out of the kids club unsupervised. That is disturbing.

 

Some have accused OP of seeking to get a free cruise or other compensation. I don't see that at all. What I see is an extremely concerned parent who wants to make sure NCL takes the safety of children seriously.

 

Taking the OP at his word, I think NCL's response to this incident was clumsy. The letter offering a credit and requesting nondisclosure may be a routine corporate response, but not appropriate to this incident. A better response would have been a phone call from an NCL executive to the effect of "Here's what we were able to find out, we probably won't be able to know exactly what happened, but we've disciplined the staff involved and are reviewing the following processes..." The incident may not have gone high up enough the ladder to be handled appropriately. I think NCL missed an opportunity there to defuse this.

 

NCL does read CC and I am confident that executives are now aware of this incident and will review their kids club processes ... unfortunate that NCL was not able to assure OP of that earlier.

 

OP, one tip I can give you for future cruises is to register and attend your CC Meet & Greet. You get a chance to meet the officers and get the hotel director's direct extension#. I am quite confident that had the NCL hotel director on board been directly told, he/she would have handled this incident better. That is not on you of course, just an example of how CC can help make you aware of resources available to you.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

Just to be clear- I never said that special needs kids couldn't or shouldn't go on a cruise or shouldn't or couldn't go to the youth program. I also wasn't implying that all children with autism are alike. I did say that new environments pose a problem for them in particular. So I said that a "chaotic" environment wouldn't be good for them in particular but I am not saying this doesn't hold true for other children. We are talking about autism here.

 

I have been on excellent cruises where the youth programs were well-run and there would be opportunities for the kids of all stripes to have a wonderful, nurturing environment- including autistic kids.

 

Even in these youth programs- I would want to get my child involved slowly. And if my child didn't want to go I wouldn't force them. My older son never wanted to go to the youth program and he never set foot in one. My younger one loves the youth programs and begs to go. Being on a cruise ship is a whole new environment for a child and the youth program should be a place they like- not one they are forced to like. Your experience on Epic may have been on a quieter cruise and a whole different experience for your daughter.

[kerrytens]

Just to be clear- I never said that special needs kids couldn't or shouldn't go on a cruise or shouldn't or couldn't go to the youth program. I also wasn't implying that all children with autism are alike. I did say that new environments pose a problem for them in particular. So I said that a "chaotic" environment wouldn't be good for them in particular but I am not saying this doesn't hold true for other children. We are talking about autism here.

 

I have been on excellent cruises where the youth programs were well-run and there would be opportunities for the kids of all stripes to have a wonderful, nurturing environment- including autistic kids.

 

Even in these youth programs- I would want to get my child involved slowly. And if my child didn't want to go I wouldn't force them. My older son never wanted to go to the youth program and he never set foot in one. My younger one loves the youth programs and begs to go. Being on a cruise ship is a whole new environment for a child and the youth program should be a place they like- not one they are forced to like. Your experience on Epic may have been on a quieter cruise and a whole different experience for your daughter.

I never read your post as saying to never ever cruise or be placed in the kid's program. Sorry if you thought that I did.

 

I was simply answering your question about why would a parent put their child in a unfamiliar situation. My answer was meant far more in the broad sense of life in general, not just cruising. I just happened to use our cruising experience as an example.

 

At the end of the day, we all know our children best and we do the best for them individually:D

[GORDONCHICK]

I've read the entire thread, and found absolutely no mention of this, so I thought I'd bring it to light:

 

Did you know that when a cruise is over 100% capacity (due primarily to the number of children aboard), this age group (10-12) doesn't spend all of it's time IN the kids' club? The size of the kids' club areas are built for averages, not above average number of children aboard. Holiday weeks are very, very above average, and the kids' club areas are not built for it. As a result, the 10-12yo group tends to move about the ship during the day, and even in the evenings. We sailed the week of New Years, and it was a high census week, though not as high as Christmas and Thanksgiving. More times than not, our son was on a different deck AND different end of the ship - usually 2 decks down and all the way forward in a conference room.

 

I find it very plausible that Ben could have wandered off during transitioning from one place to another. Now, NCL kids' staff is supposed to check the book to see who is still checked in and do a count. A counselor is at the front of the group leading them to the next destination and another at the end. If there is a long line of kids, I think it would be very easy to slip away. BUT, the NCL counselors are also supposed to do another count to make sure they didn't lose anyone. I'm not saying that I know for a fact that this is when Ben left, but this would much easier than getting out a door that's "guarded", don't ya think?

[kerrytens]

Carmen, question for you - do you know if parents given the opportunity to opt out of 'roving' (for lack of a better term) expeditions for their children? I know that I personally would not be comfortable if the counsellors were taking my child out of the kid's area to another area on the ship.

 

You do bring up a very good point btw. If it is indeed true (pure speculation) that Ben 'escaped' during that period, things really need to change.

[GORDONCHICK]

Carmen, question for you - do you know if parents given the opportunity to opt out of 'roving' (for lack of a better term) expeditions for their children? I know that I personally would not be comfortable if the counsellors were taking my child out of the kid's area to another area on the ship.

 

You do bring up a very good point btw. If it is indeed true (pure speculation) that Ben 'escaped' during that period, things really need to change.

 

I don't think you can opt out of the group moving around - that's what that age group does when it's very full. You could pick your kid up, though. And keep in mind, this should only be happening during high census - holidiays, spring breaks, etc. Also, the 10-12 group CAN have self-check out with written parental/guardian permission, so there are usually lots of kids this age out loose.

 

I will say that if my DS was a special needs child, I would have had a very good chat with the director of the kids' area as well as the lead person for my child's group. I would be very specific about my child's needs & or tendancies (if he tended to roam or escape as some are prone to do). I would tell them specifically if he was a "flight risk", that he needs to be right with a leader, even holding their hand if that's what it takes.

 

Also, if you don't want your child out of the kid's area, that means no cupcake decorating, pirate parades, etc, which are typical for the younger ages.

 

My son's been cruising since he was 3.5yo. I've never had an issue with the kids' club until our last cruise. I went and talked to the lead over DS's age group (10-12, which is why I knew what they do), and then she wanted me to also speak to the director, which I did. I left satisfied that my issue had been heard, and it did end in resolution.

 

I still have a lot of questions I would ask the dad, but since he says he's not coming back to the thread, they won't get answered.

 

I do blame NCL for not knowing he was gone, that's for sure.

[Brandi1949]

Has anyone bothered to get the Kids Club staff's on NCL explanation of the situation. There's two sides to every story & so far we've only heard 1 side ...!

[rebeccalouiseagain]

The only way you can opt out is by paying close attention to the daily activities and night time activities. You will have to pick your child up before these events and drop them back off. The counselors are responsible for all the kids in that age group and they won't hang back for children that don't want to participate.

[gemcrusier]

I am sorry this happened but you say you took 3 boys to the kids club why didnt the other boys notice the 10 year old was gone ?

There is a company out there called Autisum on the seas they have cruises with Autstic children and adults or they can provide a one on one to assist you with your son on a cruise