NCL isn't safe for kids!

[celle]

Who said he needed special attention? Autism doesn't (necessarily) mean he needed special attention. In this case, it was just extra scary because the child would have a hard time explaining what happened or asking for help if he needed it. The child didn't need a one on one sitter -- he needed standard keep your children safe protocols.

 

He needed the special attention required to keep him in the kids' club as, unlike other children of that age, he was not allowed to sign himself out. I wonder if he just walked out, along with some other kids of his age who were leaving?

 

I have a step-grandson with Asperger's. I do know that there are circumstances where he can not cope as well as other children. He, also, has trouble explaining himself and often just walks away when faced with something he can't cope with. Is this what the OP's son did?

 

My Step-GS also cannot understand the impact his actions may have on another person's feelings. If the OP's son is like that too, he might not have realised that his leaving the kids' club would worry anyone.

 

I do agree that the staff of the kids' club dropped the ball, but I think there might have been extenuating circumstances.

[cruisemom42]

Amazingly enough - she was fine. She wanted to run right back. While she was getting the X-rays and the AO director was apologizing up a storm she said "Can I go back tonight?" And I said "Noooo!" And she said "But I have another eye!"

 

Kids are amazingly resilient ;)

 

Moms take a little longer to get over their baby's bruises :(

 

You might have been a little less sanguine about the event if -- like the original poster -- your child was unable to communicate to you what happened and no one in the kid's club either stepped up to apologize or could explain what happened either....

 

 

He needed the special attention required to keep him in the kids' club as, unlike other children of that age, he was not allowed to sign himself out. I wonder if he just walked out, along with some other kids of his age who were leaving?

 

 

As already pointed out, not all 10-year olds are "allowed" to leave. The parents have to give permission for them to be able to sign themselves in and out. That's two steps the counselors are supposed to go through if a kid -- yes even in that age range -- wants to leave: 1) they have to check that the parents actually gave permission and 2) the child has to physically sign him/herself out.

 

Neither of which happened here, apparently. Kids are not allowed to just walk out.

 

I know that when my child was 10, I did not give permission for him to be able to sign out and wander around the ship without a family member. I would be most unhappy if that actually happened, regardless of whether any harm came to him. I can't be the only parent to feel this way?

[ducklite]

I know that when my child was 10, I did not give permission for him to be able to sign out and wander around the ship without a family member. I would be most unhappy if that actually happened, regardless of whether any harm came to him. I can't be the only parent to feel this way?

 

You are not. I would never, ever have allowed my son check-out privileges when he was 10, and would have been incredibly angry had he been allowed to leave--or slip out unnoticed. Sometimes it's the point of the matter just as much as the outcome.

[Brandi1949]

Out of curiosity, are your other 2 children not asked to keep an eye on their autistic brother, or is it too much responsibility? Are they younger or older than their brother??

[celle]

Also out of curiosity:

 

• How many staff did the kids' club have working that evening?
  
• How many children were there that evening?
  
• Were the children grouped according to age, or all in one big group?
  
• Was one staff member allocated to "door duty" to check children in and out, or did a staff member have to leave other supervision duties to man the door?
  
• Is there a list or a computer screen kept close to the door, so that staff can check which children are allowed to sign themselves out?
  

 

A cruise ship is not a place of special danger, but there are as many potential dangers as in a large town. While many of you say tha you would not allow your 10-year old to sign themselves out of the kids' club, how many would allow that same 10-year old to walk to the shops alone in your home town? Usually, children of that age are pretty competent and they do need to be allowed to develop some independence (within a pre-arranged set of rules).

[crusinmama06]

Also out of curiosity:

 

• How many staff did the kids' club have working that evening?
  
• How many children were there that evening?
  
• Were the children grouped according to age, or all in one big group?
  
• Was one staff member allocated to "door duty" to check children in and out, or did a staff member have to leave other supervision duties to man the door?
  
• Is there a list or a computer screen kept close to the door, so that staff can check which children are allowed to sign themselves out?
  

 

A cruise ship is not a place of special danger, but there are as many potential dangers as in a large town. While many of you say tha you would not allow your 10-year old to sign themselves out of the kids' club, how many would allow that same 10-year old to walk to the shops alone in your home town? Usually, children of that age are pretty competent and they do need to be allowed to develop some independence (within a pre-arranged set of rules).

 

I can answer this to what we saw the very NEXT week.

 

How many staff AT the door - FOUR

--three (one for each computer screen) and one AT the lock to unlock the door and physically let the children in/out)

 

How many kids on that night

--there would be hundreds on a Thanksgiving sailing on any given night

 

Kids are grouped to AGES in different rooms

--Ages 2-5

--Ages 6-9

--Ages 10-12

 

My girls who are 8 and 12 were in two separate rooms.

 

No - the staff at the door STAY at the door. They are the door staff - period. I saw the same staff checking in pretty much the whole week. They call back to the counselors in the actual rooms with the kids to send out the child when the parents arrive.

 

Everything is done by touchscreen computer. There are three of them. Parent's card is scanned. Child's card is scanned. Password is given. Then the door is unlocked.

 

AND - I toured the kids club on the first day and I didn't see any other doors. So I don't know how he could have made it out any other way. The security tapes would be interesting to see.

 

Cruisemom42 - you don't know the struggles we have had with my daughter and her medical background. Please don't tell me how I would have reacted. You have no idea.

[cruisemom42]

 

Cruisemom42 - you don't know the struggles we have had with my daughter and her medical background. Please don't tell me how I would have reacted. You have no idea.

 

I apologize; I did not mean in any way to make light of what happened to your daughter. :o But in my defense, I can only know what you posted, not what information you might have chosen to withhold. And to your credit, you came across as very zen-like about what happened to her, much more so than I would have been, I'm sure.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

I just read all of the Cruise Critic Reviews of Epic over the Thanksgiving Week cruise. The common complaint was regarding the Youth Program. There was at least one blind child onboard whose parents were told ahead of time that she would get individual attention onboard and they had to complain until finally someone agreed to watch over her. On the one hand, I don't think the cruise line should every say that a counselor will spend one-on-one with any child. However- if a passenger is told that upfront they should deliver on said promise.

 

Besides the recent post here on the Family board- there were at least two other 10 year olds onboard with Aspberger's. Neither used the youth program because they preferred not to. One parent said that the Blue Man Group totally freaked out her son with Aspberger's and he tried to flee the theater. Interestingly she said she allowed her 10 year old to make his way back to the cabin. She said he is capable of doing this.

 

The thing I took away from the Epic Youth Program is that it wasn't well run, the lines were ridiculously long for pick up and drop off, the counselors were described as mean. It closes now from 12-2 and 5-7 on sea days because people were leaving their kids in there all day. So take note that this is probably the norm now- not just on holiday cruises.

[celle]

I can answer this to what we saw the very NEXT week.

 

How many staff AT the door - FOUR

--three (one for each computer screen) and one AT the lock to unlock the door and physically let the children in/out)

 

How many kids on that night

--there would be hundreds on a Thanksgiving sailing on any given night

 

Kids are grouped to AGES in different rooms

--Ages 2-5

--Ages 6-9

--Ages 10-12

 

My girls who are 8 and 12 were in two separate rooms.

 

No - the staff at the door STAY at the door. They are the door staff - period. I saw the same staff checking in pretty much the whole week. They call back to the counselors in the actual rooms with the kids to send out the child when the parents arrive.

 

Everything is done by touchscreen computer. There are three of them. Parent's card is scanned. Child's card is scanned. Password is given. Then the door is unlocked.

 

AND - I toured the kids club on the first day and I didn't see any other doors. So I don't know how he could have made it out any other way. The security tapes would be interesting to see.

 

Michele,

Thank you for your detailed answer.

 

I agree. I don't see how the OP's son could have escaped.

[psmerks]

Some of you may think this has nothing to do with this post but 19 yrs ago my ADD/ADHD son was "lost" while I left him at a ski resorts' kids club. When i went to pick him up he was not there & the staff didn't notice. He was 3 yrs old at the time! My heart sank as the staff & security put out the APB to find him. It didn't take long before they found my l'il guy sledding in his ski pant (w/o a jacket, gloves, or hat) behind the lodge. He was having a ball! Most ADD children don't like large groups & need their routine. At 1st, I felt so guilty! To the "NCL isn't safe for kids" Mom: While I did ask how this happened to my son, I was so relieved they find him, I just thanked God he was safe and I was taking him home. We went back to that ski resort often & they have not lost another child since.

FYI: Today my son works as a ski instructor at the #1 ski resort in the world. He teaches kids age 3 - 13 and he is wonderful with them. The kids love him. He doesn't make alot of $ but he says he has the "best job in the world". I think this is because of his passion but I can't help to wonder if his little "lost" incident has anything to do with it...

[wranglerguy]

I have never been on NCL but willing to try it out. If you don't want the credit I will be happy to take it off your hands.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OIIIO

[lucigo]

The answer to WHY he left is easy...his iPad was in the cabin! :D Ok obviously that is speculation, but I do appreciate the OP letting us know what happened. My son Ben also has autism and has been on 13 Carnival cruises. While he has gone to kids camp, I take a camp phone so they can call me, and check on him frequently. That said, he is turning 10 this year and I seriously doubt we will send him now that he will be in the 9-11 age group, where they can check themselves out, and I doubt they will be as vigilant as the 2-5 or 6-8 age groups where they really expect this type of behavior.

[Cruisin' Chick]

There is a lot of blame to go around. First of all- a special needs child should always have a special needs aide that he is familiar with or a parent on a trip like this.

 

It wasn't the boy's fault that he was put in a situation that he wasn't equipped to handle.

 

Some parents obviously feel overburdened or are clueless about their child's needs.

 

I blame the band leader and the parents on this one.

 

I'd be pretty furious that I wasn't made aware of the situation in advance. It wasn't fair to you or this child.

 

I agree that it was unfair to task two women unaware of the boy's special needs with being his handler. It would have been different if one of the women was familiar with autistic children and was asked if she would help out with the boy.

 

I had volunteered to be a parent chaperone on a field trip for sixth graders. The teacher assigned me a group of about 6 to 8 kids, including my own daughter. She also slipped in one boy whose name was familiar to me only because my girl had told me about his classroom exploits (including an use of mechanical pencils that got them banned in the classroom). So I knew to keep an eye on him, even if the teacher didn't completely come clean with me beforehand. But he was ADHD, which I was familiar with from helping out in classes with similar kids. It would have been unfair to put a child with me that I wouldn't have been able to handle -- and certainly unfair to the other kids. At least that was just for a couple of hours and not a trip to a different city, which included a hotel stay. That's a situation that it showed poor judgement on the parents to send him off without one of them.

 

Oh no - not a pillow fight! I can't believe they weren't asked to sign a waiver! ;) Next they will be making crafts with pointy toothpicks, or playing volleyball - I will make sure to pack my bubble wrap on our next NCL cruise! :D

 

When she told me about it, I basically kept my mouth shut about her chances. She's pretty much very protective of her kids (and people often accuse me of being protective:rolleyes:) even to the point of not allowing her kids to watch the Simpsons. Her daughter was about 11 or 12 then, and maybe should have sat out the pillow fight, since it was just five months after she broke her arm falling off of a jungle gym (when a boy pushed, maybe accidentally or not, her so she fell). As I said, the girl is tall (even then) and skinny -- she weighs about the same as my daughter, who is much shorter and is skinny herself.

 

But blaming the tween group counselors may have been over the top.

[Cruisin' Chick]

While I agree it's a over-the-top to say "NCL isn't safe for kids," when that clearly isn't true--I'm shocked by the rest of your post and how disrespectful it is to the special needs child and all special needs children. As others have said, you can't generalize autism, it's a spectrum. I also don't understand how asking questions directly related to the topic of the museum are "crazy", as you said. I'm not condoning the parents' or band director's choices/decisions, but I wish you had been more respectful and mindful of how your words come across.

 

I think that the story about the boy in the band and the OP's son are related, because in both cases, the caregivers were in a situation where one child needed special attention, while in a group with other children. In each case, the people looking after these children were not able to give the child the one-on-one attention (or extra supervision) that he needed, because they had to watch a whole group of children.

 

In addition, both sets of caregivers (the parents on the band trip and the staff at NCL) were not usually responsible for caring for a child with special needs.

 

Yes, the staff in the kids' club on NCL dropped the ball in not noticing that the OP's child had left. It shouldn't have happened. But, they are not specifically trained to look after special needs children and they were probably not staffed to an extent that one person could be allocated to do this.

 

I agree with the second post. The person relating the situation with the band group was planning to chaperone "normal" kids, not a child with a condition she was not trained to handle. And it was probably the same with the NCL counselors. They may have experience with kids in the normal spot on the social-relating spectrum, but not with special needs kids.

[carygirl]

OP I am very sorry this happened to your family. I know I would be furious if a kids club "lost" my son and would certainly want to warn others. Thank you for sharing your story.

 

It sounds like the NCL Club is a zoo during peak times.

 

Is there a limit on how many kids are allowed in the club at one time?

[Mack2]

We were aboard the Epic the first week it came back from the Mediterranean, so we still had the staff that was more in tune with the Barcelona crowd.

 

We didn't have a ton of kids on the ship that first week of November... but the kids club was disappointing. My kids didn't enjoy it at all. The kids club would have activities planned that would never come to fruition. Such as a night where they would play a certain game, but the game never happened... or a certain activity that never occurred at the alotted time.

 

At one point during the cruise, my youngest (DD) told us that everyone in her room was very loud and the counselor had started screaming at the kids to "Shut up!".

On the flip side, we would pick up the two kids, and my younger son would be making fun of the Spanish accents the counselors had.

 

Since it was pretty much the last week for these counselors aboard the Epic, I didn't say anything... just attributed these things to the fact that we had a transitioning crew... I'm sure they were on their last week aboard the Epic since the would be bringing in counselors with a stronger English language background.

 

Inevitably, though, I wasn't a big fan of kids club aboard the Epic

[maureencruiser]

Cruise lines make lots of money on parents traveling with their kids ... They don't get a pass for letting one wander the ship unnoticed. Every child should be looked after properly or they need to limit the number they allow in the program.

And on the flip side, how many people come on the boards complaining of unsupervised bands of children roaming the ships with no parents in sight? Sitting in the staircases, riding the elevators running up and down the halls all night? And you know that once "Little Johnny" falls and gets hurt, they'll be screaming at the top of their lungs about how the "ship staff" let it happen. God forbid what these same "attentive" parents would do if a child molester DID get a hold of their child while they were yucking it up in the casino, etc. How is the cruise line supposed to know Johnny's parents would flip out if he was in the hallway by himself and Jimmy's parents don't care what he does? I think too many parents use the ship itself as a babysitter and falsely believe nothing bad will happen. They also don't care how disruptive their children are to other people.

[dijid]

I agree with the second post. The person relating the situation with the band group was planning to chaperone "normal" kids' date=' not a child with a condition she was not trained to handle. And it was probably the same with the NCL counselors. They may have experience with kids in the normal spot on the social-relating spectrum, but not with special needs kids.[/quote']

 

That raises a good question - are the NCL counselors (or any cruise line's for that matter) trained on dealing with special needs children. I've been a Girl Scout leader for a long time. We had to take kids with special needs who were mainstreamed in the public school. However, I was never given any special training on how to deal with these kids, and unless a parent would talk to me about it, I - and my co-leaders - were really at a loss. Yes, I was authorized to do things like administer medication parents provided, and I kept up my 1st Aid/CPR license, but I think as a parent you really need to ask yourself whether your child can be in a situation where it won't be trained professionals dealing with them. They don't have special aides that can more closely supervise one child.

[mjkacmom]

 

On the flip side, we would pick up the two kids, and my younger son would be making fun of the Spanish accents the counselors had.

 

Since it was pretty much the last week for these counselors aboard the Epic, I didn't say anything... just attributed these things to the fact that we had a transitioning crew... I'm sure they were on their last week aboard the Epic since the would be bringing in counselors with a stronger English language background.

 

Inevitably, though, I wasn't a big fan of kids club aboard the Epic

 

Did you inform your children that it is rude to make fun of someone's else's attempt at our language, one of the hardest languages to learn? And these counselors spoke more languages (even if not perfect) than most Americans? Anyone who can speak a little English as a non-native is a step ahead of me!

[cello56]

What are the educational requirements to work in a Norwegian Cruise Lines childcare area? Here is what RCI requires:

 

Kids will have a blast at our complimentary, award-winning Adventure Ocean® Youth Program. Every member of our youth team holds a four-year degree in education, recreation or a related field and has extensive experience working with children

[rebeccalouiseagain]

Even if the NCL staff have four year degrees and experience with children- that doesn't make them A. proficient in the fields of special education and B. Even if they are proficient, they are not available for one-on-one with a child.

 

I was a volunteer at my son's elementary school and the special needs children work regularly with an aide- who they are familiar with. They are also in an arena that they are familiar with. They are also in a controlled setting.

 

So on a cruise- A. The youth program is a new place for a special needs child. B. you have counselors who may or may not have any special education instruction. C. These counselors have at least 20 other children to contend with at any given time- even if they do have this background. D. the activities aren't specifically geared for special needs children. E. The loud/ claustrophobic atmosphere might be too much for a special needs child.

 

Long story short- I would make sure that I was permitted to stay with my child in the youth program if necessary. I would get this permission in advance and have it put in writing and emailed to you. Passengers are permitted to bring guide dogs when necessary- so I feel that a child should be able to bring and aide or parent in the youth program. I think it limits the cruise lines liability because if the child were to get injured- you can't blame the youth program. The risk of an adult to another child is really marginal given that there are other counselors there.

[sherryf]

I wanted to comment on the band trip situation posted here.

 

I have chaperoned many band trips as well as robotics team trips. I have always been informed of any special considerations for any of the students in my group, such as bed-wetting (elementary trip), tendency to faint, ADD, allergies, etc. I have never been placed with a child with extreme special needs. On one trip to Disneyland, there was a boy with Aspergers, and his mother came along as his chaperon. She and her son hung out with our group and she helped with the group as necessary, but if her son needed anything special (staying off a certain ride, a break to go back to their room for quiet time, etc.) she was free to deal with him. We had no incidents with him, but I think having his mother there at all times was the biggest factor in that.

 

The child mentioned in the band trip story should never have been allowed to go on such a trip without one-on-one supervision from a parent or familiar caregiver. To me, it sounds like he is beyond "just Aspergers" - the "finger painting" episode is beyond what I would expect from a teen with Aspergers. No parent chaperon should have to deal with something like that!

 

I'm not going to comment on the NCL kid club incident because I have a lot of conflicting feelings about it and don't think I could express myself well. I do have experience with autism. My adult step-son is severely autistic and developmentally disabled, pretty much like an autistic toddler in an adult body. He once walked out of his group home and managed to walk a few blocks on a busy street before a neighbor recognized him and brought him back. Unfortunately, these things do sometimes happen. No caregiver is perfect. I'll admit to losing my own kids in the grocery store more than once. :o

[mmbrocker]

Even if the NCL staff have four year degrees and experience with children- that doesn't make them A. proficient in the fields of special education and B. Even if they are proficient, they are not available for one-on-one with a child.

 

I was a volunteer at my son's elementary school and the special needs children work regularly with an aide- who they are familiar with. They are also in an arena that they are familiar with. They are also in a controlled setting.

 

So on a cruise- A. The youth program is a new place for a special needs child. B. you have counselors who may or may not have any special education instruction. C. These counselors have at least 20 other children to contend with at any given time- even if they do have this background. D. the activities aren't specifically geared for special needs children. E. The loud/ claustrophobic atmosphere might be too much for a special needs child.

 

Long story short- I would make sure that I was permitted to stay with my child in the youth program if necessary. I would get this permission in advance and have it put in writing and emailed to you. Passengers are permitted to bring guide dogs when necessary- so I feel that a child should be able to bring and aide or parent in the youth program. I think it limits the cruise lines liability because if the child were to get injured- you can't blame the youth program. The risk of an adult to another child is really marginal given that there are other counselors there.

 

In my experience, very few mainstreamed SN children actually are given an aide. It's difficult and expensive and most schools try to avoid giving them to anyone but someone who can.not. pass without one. In fact, for a parent volunteer, you wouldn't know all of the special needs kids in the classroom. Unless you're privy to their IEPs (which are private) you actually can't really tell. I know my childs class had a fair number of IEP students and no special aide amongst them.

 

I don't know about having other adults in the kids program. I mean, there is no background check done on other parents. I don't think I'd feel comfortable leaving my child in a kids club that had a random parent in it. Even one just supervising his/her own child.

[Mack2]

Did you inform your children that it is rude to make fun of someone's else's attempt at our language, one of the hardest languages to learn? And these counselors spoke more languages (even if not perfect) than most Americans? Anyone who can speak a little English as a non-native is a step ahead of me!

Actually, that's almost exactly what I told my son!

I told him the European cruises visit several different countries and accommodate passengers from all over Europe. The kids club staff probably spoke Spanish, French, Italian, and English... but Spanish was their primary language because the ship left out of Barcelona, resulting in more Spanish speaking passengers. I remember asking my kids, "How many languages do YOU speak?" (Still, it doesn't excuse them for yelling at the kids to "Shut up!")

 

I also told them that the kids club was probably chaotic because they probably didn't get that many kids on Mediterranean cruises! When Criusinmama came back with pictures depicting a whole new Kids Club staff, I figured that my assertion about the European staff was correct. Unfortunately, according to this thread, the kids clubs were still just as chaotic.

 

The difference was three weeks. We cruised with a veteran Mediterranean staff who were learning the idiosyncrasies of the North American cruiser on their first Caribbean cruise after crossing the Atlantic.

 

Three weeks later, there were 3 times as many children with a newer Kids Club staff. It's disappointing to hear that the club was still disorganized.

 

edit:

And what idiosyncrasies am I speaking of?

I was actually asking a lot of the staff this question. How do the "American" tourists compare to the "European" tourists?

The most common answer was the the American tourists had a lot more energy. The clubs were busier, it was easier for Papi Chulo (Richard Abreu) to get people dancing at the pool. There was more applause during the shows.

 

Even the wait staff noticed a different energy or vibe coming from the passengers. They would say that we were more friendly and warm. I even asked if we were more obnoxious, but they always said no, different with more energy, but not obnoxious.

 

Three weeks later during Thanksgiving and beyond? I dunno.

[EmJakeBubbie]

I'm glad the son of this OP is okay.

There is no perfect cruise ship - only the people doing their jobs, on your particular sailing.

We, too, have had "issues" with the kid's program, but not w/NCL - imho, mostly the staff try, but in this particular case, they must have failed.