NCL isn't safe for kids!

[rebeccalouiseagain]

In my experience, very few mainstreamed SN children actually are given an aide. It's difficult and expensive and most schools try to avoid giving them to anyone but someone who can.not. pass without one. In fact, for a parent volunteer, you wouldn't know all of the special needs kids in the classroom. Unless you're privy to their IEPs (which are private) you actually can't really tell. I know my childs class had a fair number of IEP students and no special aide amongst them.

 

I don't know about having other adults in the kids program. I mean, there is no background check done on other parents. I don't think I'd feel comfortable leaving my child in a kids club that had a random parent in it. Even one just supervising his/her own child.

 

I should clarify that I was not an aide- I was a volunteer. I helped in the classroom with the special needs kids but not as an aide. I just witnessed them with their aides. In art class, for example, the aide left. I am sorry that this is't the norm in other parts of the country. In my state there are aides for the special needs kids. They wait by the bus in the morning. I was the volunteer in art and used to spend time with all of the kids- including the special needs children. They were great. There were treated like people not second class citizens. I never saw any of them be anything but polite and sweet (to me at least). The other kids would get annoyed though and often didn't interact with them. One boy, John had the habit of asking 1000 questions but that was part of his charm IMO. My son and I miss him now that he is in a special school but he probably would have had difficulty in regular middle school.

 

As for a parent being present, I am not saying that the parent has to stay but I think if your child is autistic and you are concerned about them being overwhelmed and unable to communicate, then I would prefer that the parent were present. This wouldn't bother me whatsoever. In fact, the crew may behave better with adult witnesses present. It also means that the counselor isn't constantly having to keep an eye on the special needs child and unable to attend to the other children as well. This may be part of the reason the counselors were frazzled on the Thanksgiving cruise.

[Onessa]

The cruise line has to walk a very narrow line in these situations. On one hand they want to provide the SN child/pax with all of the experiences that are available to non-SN kids on board. That they do not deny these kids access is a good thing.

 

The line also needs to make certain that the demands of SN kids do not impact the rights of the non-SN kids.

 

So to a large extent NCL did what was "right" in accommodating this child in its program. And the parents of this child should appreciate that NCL did not try to exclude or impede their child's use of the program due to that child's needs.

 

But, by taking on this responsibility, NCL should have been willing to "step up to the challenge". It appears that for whatever reason, NCL failed by allowing the child to slip through it's proceedures and allowing the child to leave.

 

It is unfortunate for NCL that they were not able to figure out how the child managed to leave -- it should have been seen as a learning experience. And I can relate to the OP's frustration in that the line does not appear to care to figure out what the underlying problem was but instead just wants to pay the family off and forget that it happened.

 

The OP did take a risk in entrusting her SN child to the children's program. It appears that in one of the six(?) nights of the cruise, that risk was realized. The OP does need to take on the responsibility of having taken that risk.

 

As the OP's child continues to grow, those risks become greater. I see my friends' SN children, now young adults, needing to take on more and more of the world. As a 10YO, or a 12YO, or a 16YO, or a 20YO -- the SN "child" may not appear that different from anyother person of that age. And the level of protection that adults feel compelled to give a 6YO is not the same as that they would give a 10YO. Many parents do give their 10YO signout priveledges so once the OP's son was out of the kid's program area; I do not find it at all unusual that no one else seemed to notice. And since is was PJ night in the kid's program, the OP's son's garb would not have sounded any alarms.

 

My best friend's 19YO highly functioning Aspberger's son is a freshman at a small college campus in MO (she lives in East-Central Wisconsin). She has worked very hard with him to prepare him for this experience. He was fortunate that at Christmas break when the last bus of the day to St. Louis was "overbooked" that an upper classman recognized that he was a little "different" and gave up her seat to him so that he did not have to cope with finding accommodations for the night until he could catch the bus the next day. My friend has given him every tool possible to be able to deal with the complexities of life, but in order for him to have a life -- his family must let him take the risks associated with life.

[mymollysue]

Thank you for sharing your story. As the mother of an autistic little girl, I constantly worry about her safety. My DD has been on 3 cruises: NCL Jewel, Disney Dream and RCL Liberty of the Seas. She was an infant on the Jewel, she was almost 2 on the Dream and almost 2 1/2 on the Liberty. Both times, we used the nursery, which my DD loved. They were made aware of her needs, and I was given a phone to check in (which I did frequently). The staff on both lines were phenomenal. My DD loved the nursery so much she ran into the room with the biggest smile on her face. In fact, I was told she was one of the best behaved kids they had. For the last cruise, Autism of the Seas provided me with their material so I could take it with on the cruise. They also informed the cruise line for me of her needs. It was incredibly helpful. They do have group cruises, which I think is a wonderful idea, but if you have a child with autism, you shouldn't be limited to only cruising on an Autism of the Seas Cruise. People need to do what's best for them and their family.

 

What happened on your cruise was disturbing. It could have happened to any child...whether or not they were autistic. It probably wasn't the first time a child escaped, and probably isn't going to be the last either. And I can probably guarantee you this has occurred on other lines as well. I think there needs to be some staff retraining to make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

And for those people who try to lump all kids with autism into one category, that is like lumping together all kids with brown hair. Each child has different strengths and different weaknesses just like any other child does.

 

We are now planning our next cruise with the kids. Right now we are booked on the Allure. And believe me, I will do my research to make sure wherever I send my daughter is safe and accommodating. I thank the OP for sharing her story.

[Rzelden]

This will be my last post because some people find it necessary to put blame on my wife and I, or to find reasons as to why he left. NONE OF THAT MATTERS! We were told he was welcome in the kids club, that they could handle him no problem. We toured the place, it seemed safe, so we decided to leave all 3 of our kids, the other 2 are now 8 and 6, so they were all in different groups and couldn't be asked, nor should we have to ask them to watch their older brother. Plain and simple, NCL dropped the ball, and had I chosen a different headline, many of you may not have read it. My goal was to warn other parents of what happened, like it or not, its the truth and at this point, I don't care what NCL says or does about it anymore.

 

FYI, Cruise Critic wrote a story about this whole thing, if you would like to read it, here it is...

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5179.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

thank you for posting. I have read many other accounts that make me feel that the Epic would not be the choice for me with a child that age.

 

People are sometimes skeptics of first time posters. It just doesn't make sense that he got out of there so easily but he did and I believe you. It's unfortunate that your child and the staff couldn't explain what happened.

[Rzelden]

Thanks for your post.

[Rzelden]

Truthfully, until now, I really didn't feel the need to talk about my cruises here except with friends and family. I may get more involved with the site now that I understand what it can be used for, good and bad experiences, and even get tips on future cruises. This wasn't the first and it certainly won't be my last cruise. My wife and I are already booked on The Solstice on 5/17 for our 3rd cruise to Alaska and I can't wait. An no kids this time!!!

[reallyitsmema]

Truthfully, until now, I really didn't feel the need to talk about my cruises here except with friends and family. I may get more involved with the site now that I understand what it can be used for, good and bad experiences, and even get tips on future cruises. This wasn't the first and it certainly won't be my last cruise. My wife and I are already booked on The Solstice on 5/17 for our 3rd cruise to Alaska and I can't wait. An no kids this time!!!

Was your child found in your cabin or a cabin two down from your cabin? The news artlcle makes it sound like he was in a different cabin.

 

 

When they returned to their cabin two hours later, they discovered their oldest son, an 11-year-old autistic boy, in a cabin two doors down where the cabin steward watched over him.

[Rzelden]

We had 3 cabins, we were a total of 9 people, all family

[VillaHappy]

He is verbal, but explaining why he does things is not the easiest thing for him, so we don't know why he left. I will go back to other lines and probably start cruising with an autism group called autism of the seas. They organize group cruises for families with autism, usually on Royal. When on one of their cruises, they post their employees in the kids club at all times in addition to the cruise staff because they are better trained.

 

I think this may better suit your needs. Sorry that NCL disappointed you. It does seem that cruise lines are slow to own up to their mistakes, and that is very unfortunate.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

Truthfully, until now, I really didn't feel the need to talk about my cruises here except with friends and family. I may get more involved with the site now that I understand what it can be used for, good and bad experiences, and even get tips on future cruises. This wasn't the first and it certainly won't be my last cruise. My wife and I are already booked on The Solstice on 5/17 for our 3rd cruise to Alaska and I can't wait. An no kids this time!!!

 

We are doing the Solstice the week of May 6-15th!

[dsrdsrdsr]

There's a lot of posting on this thread about how autistic children "can't cope" and "shouldn't have been left". But where's the evidence?

 

This boy was evidently able to "cope" well enough in the kids club that throughout the cruise NCL staff never felt he needed his parents to stay with him; and he was able to "cope" well enough that when he wanted to leave, he left in a quiet and orderly manner and returned without incident to his cabin. As has been stated already, there is no single badge that fits all autistic children. Ben, at least, seems quite able to cope with this incident.

[djmess]

I am so sorry you had to have this experience. I was on the same sailing as you. Fortunately I didn't have as traumatic an experience as yours, but I must say I was extremely frustrated with the Kids Club on this sailing.

 

It was the most unorganized and disjointed of any NCL sailing we have been on. It was our 3rd time on the Epic and my son's 11th or 12th NCL cruise in the last 6 years. My son did not like the environment on this particular sailing. So much so, that he did not want to go the last night, so he did not.

 

At opening and closing times of the club, it was pure chaos and yes absolutely very strict on the sign in and sign out. BUT, I witnessed on off times when I would go to pick up my kid or drop him off, that often, there were NO Kids Crew members at the sign in sign out desk area. I would wait as long as 5 minutes for someone to appear. It only takes about a minute or less for a child to unlatch the gate and go up or down the stairs right outside the kids club area. I would bet this is what occured and was the time that your son left. Again, so sorry this happened to you.

 

The kids counselors on this sailing were lacking and definitely poorly trained.

 

I do have multiple NCL sailings booked and am hoping that this was a one time bad experience for me as I have had many Excellent experiences in the past, both on the Epic and other ships in the fleet. I did write a letter to NCL expaining the problems with the Current Epic Kids Club. It took them nearly 7 weeks (just received a letter yesterday) to finally respond to my letters and emails. Although my situation was nowhere as bad as yours, I felt the time it took for them to respond was horrible. They didn't ask me to sign a nondisclosure or anything and did offer me some "welcome aboard amenities" on my next cruise. What I want most of all from NCL is for them to reevaluate the kids program on the Epic and now after reading what happened to you, to definitely make sure the counselours are welll trained.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

djmess, thanks for that information. It sounds as though that is what happened.

[room010]

One of the (many) challenges with Aspie kids is that apart from a few similar traits each child displays some or all of those traits to a greater or lesser degree. Its not a One Size Fits All disorder and the only people who know what a child can or can't cope with are the parents of that child. Our Aspie daughter is very self-sufficient and compliant in most situations but a noisy, busy, possibly chaotic kids club would have been totally overwhelming and no doubt she would have done anything to escape to some peace and quiet too. So we wouldn't have used the kids club in the first place. Responsibility for a child's well being ultimately rests with the parents and their knowledge of the child's capabilities and/or limitations. And then they go and do something totally left field...:rolleyes:

[mjkacmom]

I am so sorry you had to have this experience. I was on the same sailing as you. Fortunately I didn't have as traumatic an experience as yours, but I must say I was extremely frustrated with the Kids Club on this sailing.

 

It was the most unorganized and disjointed of any NCL sailing we have been on. It was our 3rd time on the Epic and my son's 11th or 12th NCL cruise in the last 6 years. My son did not like the environment on this particular sailing. So much so, that he did not want to go the last night, so he did not.

 

At opening and closing times of the club, it was pure chaos and yes absolutely very strict on the sign in and sign out. BUT, I witnessed on off times when I would go to pick up my kid or drop him off, that often, there were NO Kids Crew members at the sign in sign out desk area. I would wait as long as 5 minutes for someone to appear. It only takes about a minute or less for a child to unlatch the gate and go up or down the stairs right outside the kids club area. I would bet this is what occured and was the time that your son left. Again, so sorry this happened to you.

 

The kids counselors on this sailing were lacking and definitely poorly trained.

 

I do have multiple NCL sailings booked and am hoping that this was a one time bad experience for me as I have had many Excellent experiences in the past, both on the Epic and other ships in the fleet. I did write a letter to NCL expaining the problems with the Current Epic Kids Club. It took them nearly 7 weeks (just received a letter yesterday) to finally respond to my letters and emails. Although my situation was nowhere as bad as yours, I felt the time it took for them to respond was horrible. They didn't ask me to sign a nondisclosure or anything and did offer me some "welcome aboard amenities" on my next cruise. What I want most of all from NCL is for them to reevaluate the kids program on the Epic and now after reading what happened to you, to definitely make sure the counselours are welll trained.

 

It was over a holiday - of course the kids clubs would be chaos! And I'm sure the lines for rides at Disney were hours long, the airports were crazy, and there was tons on traffic on the highways. It is what it is. We sailed on the Jewel over a NJ holiday, and there were times that the entire hallway outside the clubs were packed with people. No big deal, the kids were on a cruise, and not missing school, but there were 800 kids onboard, and I assumed there would be issues (like the non-adult pool being absolutely packed with kids).

 

I wouldn't expect an apology from NCL, because that would be an admission of guilt, and with today's sue-crazy climate, I'm sure there is a policy they have to adhere to when mistakes are made.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

I think that the story about the boy in the band and the OP's son are related, because in both cases, the caregivers were in a situation where one child needed special attention, while in a group with other children. In each case, the people looking after these children were not able to give the child the one-on-one attention (or extra supervision) that he needed, because they had to watch a whole group of children.

 

In addition, both sets of caregivers (the parents on the band trip and the staff at NCL) were not usually responsible for caring for a child with special needs.

 

Yes, the staff in the kids' club on NCL dropped the ball in not noticing that the OP's child had left. It shouldn't have happened. But, they are not specifically trained to look after special needs children and they were probably not staffed to an extent that one person could be allocated to do this.

 

 

Thank you for this post. I cannot agree with you more. I understand that parents who leave their children in a kid's club wish to believe that they are safe. One thing the past several decades should have shown us is that the responsibility for assuring their children are safe in daycare belongs to the parent.

 

I also that a parent with a special needs child needs some time alone away from that child as do parents with "normal" children. However, it is a parent's responsibility to make sure that the environment the child is being left in is safe for that particular child. Care situations in most public venues are simply not set up for any child, special needs or otherwise, who cannot or does not follow the rules. The kid's club should not be put into the position of having to pay more attention to one child than they do the group as a whole. If a child cannot function safely without attention greater than the others in the room, the child should not be placed in the situation. It is not fair to the child, to the other children, or to the caregivers.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

You might have been a little less sanguine about the event if -- like the original poster -- your child was unable to communicate to you what happened and no one in the kid's club either stepped up to apologize or could explain what happened either....

 

 

 

 

As already pointed out, not all 10-year olds are "allowed" to leave. The parents have to give permission for them to be able to sign themselves in and out. That's two steps the counselors are supposed to go through if a kid -- yes even in that age range -- wants to leave: 1) they have to check that the parents actually gave permission and 2) the child has to physically sign him/herself out.

 

Neither of which happened here, apparently. Kids are not allowed to just walk out.

 

I know that when my child was 10, I did not give permission for him to be able to sign out and wander around the ship without a family member. I would be most unhappy if that actually happened, regardless of whether any harm came to him. I can't be the only parent to feel this way?

 

The question is whether, if seeing the door unattended, your son would leave without you signing him out. If the answer is yes, then your child does not belong in a kid's club. If your child would stand there until someone comes to let him out, then kid's club might be a good place for them.

[rachelfran]

Thank you for this post. I cannot agree with you more. I understand that parents who leave their children in a kid's club wish to believe that they are safe. One thing the past several decades should have shown us is that the responsibility for assuring their children are safe in daycare belongs to the parent.

 

I also that a parent with a special needs child needs some time alone away from that child as do parents with "normal" children. However, it is a parent's responsibility to make sure that the environment the child is being left in is safe for that particular child. Care situations in most public venues are simply not set up for any child, special needs or otherwise, who cannot or does not follow the rules. The kid's club should not be put into the position of having to pay more attention to one child than they do the group as a whole. If a child cannot function safely without attention greater than the others in the room, the child should not be placed in the situation. It is not fair to the child, to the other children, or to the caregivers.

 

 

Wow - just wow. I really should stop reading this thread but I can't help myself.

Unless otherwise noted- programs are put on place for all children. The ADA assures the same rights to all regardless of disability and this includes children with special needs. I'm sorry for you that we live in a world where not everyone is your perception of "normal".

 

I don't know if you are addressing the original post in this thread that stated that this particular child had already been to the kids club - it wasn't his first time. Another poster said that the security was lax and the door was accessible to anyone when it shouldn't have been ... And if all kids follow the rules 100% of the time, why do they need counselors there at all?

 

Ugh!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mmbrocker]

Wow - just wow. I really should stop reading this thread but I can't help myself.

Unless otherwise noted- programs are put on place for all children. The ADA assures the same rights to all regardless of disability and this includes children with special needs. I'm sorry for you that we live in a world where not everyone is your perception of "normal".

 

I don't know if you are addressing the original post in this thread that stated that this particular child had already been to the kids club - it wasn't his first time. Another poster said that the security was lax and the door was accessible to anyone when it shouldn't have been ... And if all kids follow the rules 100% of the time, why do they need counselors there at all?

 

Ugh!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Ha! You are so right. Some people will never understand.

 

All I have to say is that with 1 in 54 (nearly 2%!!) of the US population of boys being diagnosed on the ASD spectrum .. you'd better get used to us. :D

[San_Antonio_Ex]

Wow - just wow. I really should stop reading this thread but I can't help myself.

Unless otherwise noted- programs are put on place for all children. The ADA assures the same rights to all regardless of disability and this includes children with special needs. I'm sorry for you that we live in a world where not everyone is your perception of "normal".

 

I don't know if you are addressing the original post in this thread that stated that this particular child had already been to the kids club - it wasn't his first time. Another poster said that the security was lax and the door was accessible to anyone when it shouldn't have been ... And if all kids follow the rules 100% of the time, why do they need counselors there at all?

 

Ugh!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I'm sorry, you have no idea what my perception of "normal" is, nor do you know whether the we live in a world in which everyone meets my perception of "normal".

 

I didn't understand that you believe the ability to use a "kid's club" on a cruise is a RIGHT, guaranteed to you. I always believed the kid's clubs were extras, not rights.

 

I did NOT say that ASD kids didn't belong in kid's clubs, so get your knickers out of a knot. All I said was, if your child will not remain in the kid's club if the door is unattended, then perhaps kid's club is not the proper place for your child to be, regardless of whether your child is "normal". I'm sorry that appears to have struck a nerve with you.

 

As for me, I refused to leave my children anywhere I do not believe they will be safe. That meant different things for my son and my daughters. There was absolutely no way on God's green earth I would have left a child I knew would "escape" if given a chance in a kid's club on a cruise - for just the reason stated in this thread. The OP was unbelievably lucky that their child made it safely from kid's club to their cabin without harm. :eek:

 

I'm sure if their child had been hurt, the parents would have been comforted by your statement that "the ADA assures the same rights to all regardless of disability and this includes children with special needs." They may not have had a child any longer, but hey, they could sue, right? :rolleyes:

 

Parents are the people ultimately responsible for their children's behavior and for their children's safety. At least that was the way I raised my children. You are welcome to disagree and to trust others to care as much about your child's safety as you do. Personally, I would not have left my son in the kid's clubs at that age, because he would absolutely walk out if the door were left unattended. My daughters attended the kid's clubs throughout their life. Each child was treated differently based upon their needs. But that's just me.

[dsrdsrdsr]

All I have to say is that with 1 in 54 (nearly 2%!!) of the US population of boys being diagnosed on the ASD spectrum .. you'd better get used to us. :D

I don't think there's any need to "get used to us", as you put it. The increase in diagnosis does not mean that there are more ASD people about, just that diagnoses have changed. 1 in 54 boys now have a label to say they're different; in the past, the 1 in 54 boys still existed, they grew into adults, they just didn't (and don't) have a label. They're just folks, like the rest of us. Some of the 1 in 54 are undoubtedly handicapped in a way that will prevent them living an independent adult life. Some are not.

 

Whether this label helps the boys to learn to behave in an adult manner in the adult world when the time comes, that's a subject for a whole different (non-cruise related) thread. But I doubt the attitude of "get used to us" will help the ASD boys get a job. It's not like the other 53 boys who don't have a label are a set of clones; they're all different, they all have to learn to get along with each other.

[dsrdsrdsr]

The OP was unbelievably lucky that their child made it safely from kid's club to their cabin without harm. :eek:

Of course he wasn't "unbelievably lucky". If he'd been the sort of child with a tendancy to self-harm, then obviously the OP wouldn't have left him there. Just because a child is autistic doesn't mean he's entirely incompetent at everything, as you appear to think.

 

Yes, the simple act of walking from the kids' club to the cabin does have its dangers, and more so for an autistic child. But not to the extent that its successful accomplishment should be seen as some sort of miracle.

 

As for the rest of your post, IMO some of it is just wrong, the rest is contemptible. I won't dignify it by quoting it.

[San_Antonio_Ex]

Of course he wasn't "unbelievably lucky". If he'd been the sort of child with a tendancy to self-harm, then obviously the OP wouldn't have left him there. Just because a child is autistic doesn't mean he's entirely incompetent at everything, as you appear to think.

 

 

OMG! Where did I say the child had the tendency to self-harm??? Where did I say that I believed an autistic child is entirely incompetent at everything???

 

I said none of those things, nor do I believe them. You don't know me or my beliefs. The OP said "Thank goodness for Jose, the stateroom attendant. If hadn't been there, who knows where Ben could have wandered off to."

 

I assumed they knew their child better than I - if they were afraid of him wandering off or being allowed to leave kid's club without being signed out, who am I, or you, to question whether that would have been safe for him.

 

The only thing I have said is that parents have the ultimate responsibility for their children's safety. You have the right to disagree.

[rebeccalouiseagain]

I agree that the parents should have expected their child to be kept inside the youth program while they went to dinner. That was a totally legitimate complaint from the OP.

 

What I do disagree with is leaving a child, any child for the matter, in an environment that many described as "chaotic". For one thing- I don't want my child getting hurt and I don't want to leave my child in an understaffed area. There should be no more than 20 kids to a counselor. If there were 800 children onboard, which I have read there were- there should be a space that can safely hold the # that actual participate in the youth program. Assuming that 50% attended the youth program at any one time. That is 400 children divided into say groups of 100. There should be 5 counselors in each group at that rate.

 

However- say (and I'm sure this is rare)- all the kids were to show up. Then you would need 10 counselors per group. And also a facility that could adequately hold this many children without injury.

 

I really am not comfortable with the prospect of 100-200 children in a confined area while I "relax" at dinner.

 

The arm injury and face injuries reported here illustrate the inherent problems with this type of "chaotic" environment.

 

If it was obvious to the other parents- then they shouldn't have left their kids there at all- autism or not. Hopefully NCL will figure out how to handle large groups of children over the holidays. Other areas of the ship should be used- like the dance clubs and lounges that are normally empty during meal time. Or they can have night sporting events on the basketball courts but all these kids in a confined area is not in the best interest of the children.