8 day crossings

[Cruise Liner Fan]

There are some new emission control guidelines now taking effect or soon to take effect in the US that have changed some of the cruise lines use of diesel. The levels of sulfur emission has to meet a new standard if I remember right. ??

Not that I want to turn this into a political debate but don't those idiots in Washington,D.C. have more important things to worry about than to tell cruise ship operators what kind of diesel fuel to use? Have they ever seen the emissions that come out of a diesel tractor trailer truck? I have and the emissions that come from the diesel tractor trailer truck do look far more dirtier than the emissions that comes out of a ship's funnel. Regards,Jerry

[turquoise 6]

On the East bound transatlantic sailings , there is Uk immigration on board .

West bound , the US immigration is in the port of Brooklyn

A stop over , in Halifax, from The US is filling a form

And proof of citizenship with a valid passport or US drivers license .

It may be the same for UK citizens .

Cunard makes the immigration process very smooth

And easy

I am ditto-ing myself, since I am not sure if UK citizens

need a passport or photo ID for immigration into Canada, as they are a member of the Commonwealth. :confused:

[glojo]

Just had a quick look at all the cruise ship heading up and down the English Channel

 

QM2 = 16knts

Queen Victoria = 19

Arcadia = 18

Oriana = 12

Aurora = 13

Adonia = 12

Adventure of the Seas = 17

Braemar = 17

 

Certainly a number of cruise ships heading both to and from Southampton although Braemar is actually heading to Dover

[turquoise 6]

Just had a quick look at all the cruise ship heading up and down the English Channel

 

QM2 = 16knts

Queen Victoria = 19

Arcadia = 18

Oriana = 12

Aurora = 13

Adonia = 12

Adventure of the Seas = 17

Braemar = 17

 

Certainly a number of cruise ships heading both to and from Southampton although Braemar is actually heading to Dover

Very busy day/night in the channel. I know most of the ships,except Braemar? Adonia?

[pmb1]

Yes it's the grade of fuel that is burned that is being legislated, not the type of engine that burns it.

Concerning the fuels that QM2 burns, here is an excerpt of my behind-the-scenes tour blog of July 10, 2013:

 

At 3:20, still on Deck 1, we visited the Engine Control Room where Paul Carney, Chief Engineer, holds sway. The actual engine rooms are way below (four diesels) and way above (two turbines) and are off limits. He began his talk by showing us a clear plastic bottle of the pinkish orange fuel that the gas turbines burn and a paper cup of the dark heavy fuel oil that the diesel engines use. The turbine fuel is called Marine Gas Oil (MGO) and costs $1000 a tonne (~$1/liter). The diesel fuel (IFO 380) costs between $600 and $650 a tonne, depending on its sulfur content; the ship carries three different grades of diesel because some European ports require that only low sulfur fuel be used there.

[glojo]

Very busy day/night in the channel. I know most of the ships,except Braemar? Adonia?

Hi Turquoise,

Braemar is owned I believe by Fred Olsen and you will kick yourself for this... Adonia is owned by P&O :)

 

PMB1

Is that Marine Gas Oil getting close to, or VERY sinilar to the diesel that domestic household boilers use and some trucks and cars? Here in Europe I believe car and truck diesel is even more refined? question as I am not 100% sure they are that different

Edited November 4, 2013 by glojo

[david,Mississauga]

I am ditto-ing myself, since I am not sure if UK citizens

need a passport or photo ID for immigration into Canada, as they are a member of the Commonwealth. :confused:

 

My British friends and relatives tell me they need a passport for entry to Canada. Canadians definitely need a passport for entry to the UK. There was a time when there was a preferred queue for Commonwealth citizens at British airports. Sadly, other than the fact that HM The Queen is the Queen of Canada as well as Queen of the UK, etc., the Commonwealth doesn't mean as much as it once did. The preferred queue is now for citizens of the EU. When this changed it annoyed my father and three uncles who remembered that Canadians were the first to come to the aid of the "mother country" in 1939 and were not required to queue up with "others" when they arrived on the troop ships. But Dad got over it and still visited England ever year. My mother was born in the UK but had a Canadian passport.

Edited November 5, 2013 by david,Mississauga
typo

[Salacia]

My British friends and relatives tell me they need a passport for entry to Canada. Canadians definitely need a passport for entry to the UK. There was a time when there was a preferred queue for Commonwealth citizens at British airports. Sadly, other than the fact that HM The Queen is the Queen of Canada as well as Queen of the UK, etc., the Commonwealth doesn't mean as much as it once did. The preferred queue is now for citizens of the EU. When this changed it annoyed my father and three uncles who remembered that Canadians were the first to come to the aid of the "mother country" in 1939 and were not required to queue up with "others" when they arrived on the troop ships. But Dad got over it and still visited England ever year. My mother was born in the UK but had a Canadian passport.

 

 

David, I don't know if it differs by nationality, but as a US citizen, I supply my passport information to Cunard on-line, prior to boarding. I've never been asked to show my passport when docking in either Halifax or Quebec (but of course, I have it at the ready, and as required for all nationalities, I take photographic identification when going ashore).

 

Is it possible that the requirements for passengers entering Canada via air travel differs from those arriving on a Cunard ship where the vetting is done prior to boarding? Thanks, -S.

[pmb1]

... The turbine fuel is called Marine Gas Oil (MGO) and costs $1000 a tonne (~$1/liter). The diesel fuel (IFO 380) costs between $600 and $650 a tonne, depending on its sulfur content; the ship carries three different grades of diesel because some European ports require that only low sulfur fuel be used there.

… PMB1

Is that Marine Gas Oil getting close to, or VERY sinilar to the diesel that domestic household boilers use and some trucks and cars? Here in Europe I believe car and truck diesel is even more refined? question as I am not 100% sure they are that different

Don't know anything about the price of diesel in Europe, but the last time I bought home heating oil (in April) the price was $3.60/gal, which is about $1100 a tonne.

[turquoise 6]

My British friends and relatives tell me they need a passport for entry to Canada. Canadians definitely need a passport for entry to the UK. There was a time when there was a preferred queue for Commonwealth citizens at British airports. Sadly, other than the fact that HM The Queen is the Queen of Canada as well as Queen of the UK, etc., the Commonwealth doesn't mean as much as it once did. The preferred queue is now for citizens of the EU. When this changed it annoyed my father and three uncles who remembered that Canadians were the first to come to the aid of the "mother country" in 1939 and were not required to queue up with "others" when they arrived on the troop ships. But Dad got over it and still visited England ever year. My mother was born in the UK but had a Canadian passport.

Interesting how things change. I assumed that Canada and the UK had a Commonwealth relationship. Although Canadians may have a better relationship with other Commonwealth Member Nations, eg. Bermuda,

Americans don't need a passport to enter Canada. A drivers license will do.

Edited November 5, 2013 by turquoise 6

[turquoise 6]

Hi Turquoise,

Braemar is owned I believe by Fred Olsen and you will kick yourself for this... Adonia is owned by P&O :)

Thank you glojo.." I got it" The MV Adonia has a checkered past

[Salacia]

Interesting how things change. I assumed that Canada and the UK had a Commonwealth relationship. Although Canadians may have a better relationship with other Commonwealth Member Nations, eg. Bermuda,

Americans don't need a passport to enter Canada. A drivers license will do.

 

Hi Turquoise, yes it is interesting how things change, and they seem to change frequently. I don't think a US driver's license is currently all that is required for entry into Canada for US citizens...

 

"Entry into Canada: Canadian law requires that all persons entering Canada carry both proof of citizenship and proof of identity. A valid U.S. passport, passport card, or NEXUS card satisfies these requirements for U.S. citizens.

Children under 16 need only present proof of U.S. citizenship"

 

copied from http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1082.html#entry_requirements

 

Although I've never been asked to show anything other than my NY Driver's License when disembarking in Canadian ports, I do have my valid USA passport. (Same applied when I visited Bermuda last year.)

Edited November 5, 2013 by Salacia

[glojo]

Interesting points and as discussed earlier, UK citizens that go to Canada as tourists only need to be in possession of a passport (no visa) BUT... someone mentioned immigration and that surely must require all types of documentation including no doubt work permit type paperwork? I cannot imagine Canada having a completely open immigrtion policy?

 

Australia however requires UK residents entering their country as a tourist to be in possession of a visa along with the passport, although it is very easy to complete and free of charge :) (India charges in excess of £100)

[balf]

 

PMB1

Is that Marine Gas Oil getting close to, or VERY sinilar to the diesel that domestic household boilers use and some trucks and cars? Here in Europe I believe car and truck diesel is even more refined? question as I am not 100% sure they are that different

 

I am not an expert but ran trucks for many years and have driven diesel cars for many years also.

 

It's much to do with the viscosity of the fuel. Crude oil is distilled in crackers or distillation columns and near the base of the column will be a thickish diesel fuel with the lighter, thinner fuels higher up.

 

This is what was always referred to as bunker fuel, and before it could be used it needed to be heated so that it could be fed to the fuel injectors.

 

This would be regarded as a dirty fuel and certainly could not be used on road vehicles. This is why higher grades of fuel are being demanded by the world's ports.

 

Incidently, black smoke from trucks is nothing to do with the fuel used, which is identical to that used in cars. It's simply poor engine maintenance, particularly of the fuel injectors.

 

David.

[glojo]

I am not an expert but ran trucks for many years and have driven diesel cars for many years also.

 

It's much to do with the viscosity of the fuel. Crude oil is distilled in crackers or distillation columns and near the base of the column will be a thickish diesel fuel with the lighter, thinner fuels higher up.

 

This is what was always referred to as bunker fuel, and before it could be used it needed to be heated so that it could be fed to the fuel injectors.

 

This would be regarded as a dirty fuel and certainly could not be used on road vehicles. This is why higher grades of fuel are being demanded by the world's ports.

 

Incidently, black smoke from trucks is nothing to do with the fuel used, which is identical to that used in cars. It's simply poor engine maintenance, particularly of the fuel injectors.

 

David.

Hi David,

Looks like I have caused confusion and I am talking about the 'Gas Oil' that is used for the gas turbines, definitely not the heaver grade fuel used for the main engines.

 

I feel the term 'gas oil' might be misleading as 'gas' might be considered an abbreviation for 'gasoline!!!' I would suggest that the term 'gas' MIGHT... apply to the use in a 'gas' turbine. My thoughts are that it will be a diesel or kerosene derivative and will probably work in a diesel powered truck or car

[balf]

Hi David,

Looks like I have caused confusion and I am talking about the 'Gas Oil' that is used for the gas turbines, definitely not the heaver grade fuel used for the main engines.

 

I feel the term 'gas oil' might be misleading as 'gas' might be considered an abbreviation for 'gasoline!!!' I would suggest that the term 'gas' MIGHT... apply to the use in a 'gas' turbine. My thoughts are that it will be a diesel or kerosene derivative and will probably work in a diesel powered truck or car

 

Yes, the problem is that there are so many terms used for what are simply different diesel fuels used for many purposes. Even the word bunker is a throw back to pre diesel marine engines: coal bunkers being converted for storage of oil.

 

The pinkish colour of the fuel mentioned earlier is caused by a dye being put in it so it could be detected when used in road fuel. In UK Customs and Excise used to test truks diesel to check for illegal use.

 

I don't know if things have changed, but any one who sailed on QE2 will remember the black soot that issued from the funell. Many of us got free laundry from that at times. Maybe the fuel is cleaner now or the engines technology has improved.

 

David

[turquoise 6]

Hi Turquoise, yes it is interesting how things change, and they seem to change frequently. I don't think a US driver's license is currently all that is required for entry into Canada for US citizens...

 

"Entry into Canada: Canadian law requires that all persons entering Canada carry both proof of citizenship and proof of identity. A valid U.S. passport, passport card, or NEXUS card satisfies these requirements for U.S. citizens.

Children under 16 need only present proof of U.S. citizenship"

 

copied from http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1082.html#entry_requirements

 

Although I've never been asked to show anything other than my NY Driver's License when disembarking in Canadian ports, I do have my valid USA passport. (Same applied when I visited Bermuda last year.)

Hi Salacia, Thank for the update. Yes that is true of Canada, showing a drivers license. Bermuda seems ok with a valid drivers license,but I agree is best to have a Passport

[Salacia]

There are some new emission control guidelines now taking effect or soon to take effect in the US that have changed some of the cruise lines use of diesel. The levels of sulfur emission has to meet a new standard if I remember right. ??

 

"WASHINGTON - The world's largest cruise ship company will adopt technology from power plants and automobiles to reduce air pollution from the massive diesel engines powering its ships. In a tentative agreement reached Thursday with the Environmental Protection Agency, Carnival Corp. will deploy scrubbers to reduce sulfur dioxide and filters to trap soot on as many as 32 ships over the next three years. At port, the ships will either plug into the electrical grid, rather than idle, to reduce pollution or use a lower sulfur fuel..."

"...The steps Carnival is committing to take will cost the company more than $180 million and apply to ships operated by Carnival Cruise Lines, Holland America Line, Princess Cruises and Cunard. But if the technology does not meet or exceed the standard, as Carnival expects, the company will have to resort to a more expensive solution, lower sulfur fuel." -

 

See more at: http://www.courierislander.com/news/deal-with-epa-requires-company-to-install-power-plant-technology-on-cruise-ship-smokestacks-1.613502#sthash.Btn6TGId.dpuf -

Edited November 5, 2013 by Salacia

[Underwatr]

The new emissions standard applies within 250 miles of the US coast. This has dealt a blow to carnival's use of Baltimore as a port of embarkation, as the port is far up the Chesapeake Bay and the emissions standards apply well before entering the bay at Norfolk. Carnival had already made plans to relocate the Pride away from Baltimore for 2015 before the EPA agreement was reached, and it remains to be seen whether it or another ship will return to Baltimore after having been retrofitted with the scrubbers.

[BlueRiband]

The new emissions standard applies within 250 miles of the US coast. This has dealt a blow to carnival's use of Baltimore as a port of embarkation, as the port is far up the Chesapeake Bay and the emissions standards apply well before entering the bay at Norfolk. Carnival had already made plans to relocate the Pride away from Baltimore for 2015 before the EPA agreement was reached, and it remains to be seen whether it or another ship will return to Baltimore after having been retrofitted with the scrubbers.

 

Your local chapter of the Sierra Club at work.:mad: These environmental zealots believe that cruise ships have no right to exist as they have no practical transportation purpose in today's jet age. They cannot ban them, so they will rachet up the operating costs to the point where they cannot be financially sustained. (All in the name of preserving the ecosystem of course.)

[Cruise Liner Fan]

Your local chapter of the Sierra Club at work.:mad: These environmental zealots believe that cruise ships have no right to exist as they have no practical transportation purpose in today's jet age. They cannot ban them, so they will rachet up the operating costs to the point where they cannot be financially sustained. (All in the name of preserving the ecosystem of course.)

Conservative Talk Radio Host Rush Limbaugh refers to them as the Enviromentalist Whackos and I agree with him on that. If it were up to the Enviromentalist Whackos we would be living like Fred & Wilma Flintstone :eek: Regards,Jerry Edited November 6, 2013 by Cruise Liner Fan

[Salacia]

This article from a local Baltimore newspaper might be of interest: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-09-05/news/bs-gr-carnival-cruise-pollution-20130905_1_tom-dow-largest-cruise-company-ships

 

There can be no question that cruise ships are a source of pollution, or that there are ways to lessen that pollution. The question is are cruise lines willing to make adjustments, or are local populations in ports around the world so economically challenged that they accept the long term effects of that pollution out of economic necessity?

 

The $180 million CCL has projected as the cost to retro-fit ships to minimize pollution is chump change to CCL, not to mention the potential for CCL to increase revenue by burning lower cost fuel.

 

Salacia

Edited November 6, 2013 by Salacia

[BlueRiband]

This article from a local Baltimore newspaper might be of interest: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-09-05/news/bs-gr-carnival-cruise-pollution-20130905_1_tom-dow-largest-cruise-company-ships

 

There can be no question that cruise ships are a source of pollution, or that there are ways to lessen that pollution. The question is are cruise lines willing to make adjustments, or are local populations in ports around the world so economically challenged that they accept the long term effects of that pollution out of economic necessity?

 

The $180 million CCL has projected as the cost to retro-fit ships to minimize pollution is chump change to CCL, not to mention the potential for CCL to increase revenue by burning lower cost fuel.

 

Salacia

 

I question it and don't consider cruise ships to be sources of pollution so that's where we will have to disagree.

 

There are also residents near the container port on Brooklyn (next to QM2's usual US berth) who don't want ships there either. (One resident complains, "My child should not have to suffer an asthma attack just so somebody in New York can get a cheaper big screen television.") If finances or regulatory burden make a port too expensive a cruise line won't go there - or will severely curtail visits.

 

$180M is chump change only if one is speaking of US Congress. $180M comes out of the corporate bottom line and either Carnival's customers will pay for it in higher fares or shareholders will pay for it in reduced or no dividends.

Edited November 6, 2013 by BlueRiband

[glojo]

It is nice to read that the USA is starting to take this issue seriously and is it spreading to your motor industry as it could be suggested that might be the cause of even more pollution?

 

Going back to 8 day crossings, could it be suggested they are perhaps looked at as more of a complete holiday as opposed to being a part of one?

[Cruise Liner Fan]

It is nice to read that the USA is starting to take this issue seriously and is it spreading to your motor industry as it could be suggested that might be the cause of even more pollution?

 

Going back to 8 day crossings, could it be suggested they are perhaps looked at as more of a complete holiday as opposed to being a part of one?

There is really nothing going on but a lot of fear mongering or hot air coming out of the mouths of liberal politicians. What else do these liberal politicians want out of Mickey Arison? He has already installed an electrical system aboard QM2 in that when the QM2 is docked in Brooklyn an electrical cable that is plugged into the local power grid is plugged into the QM2's internal wiring so that all of the QM2's diesel engines can be turned off while the QM2 is docked in Brooklyn. And if the NYC politicians demand anything else out of Carnival Corp. that is not fair, if I were Mickey Arison I would hire very good lawyers to see if I could break the lease with NYC and start docking all the Cunard Ships and Princess Ships across the harbor in Bayonne,New Jersey at the same dock that Royal Caribbean uses where I have not heard of the Bayonne or New Jersey officials demand that Royal Caribbean International plug their ships into the local power grid. Royal Caribbean International which owns the Royal Caribbean Cruise Ships & Celebrity Cruise Ships moved to Bayonne,NJ in 2003 from the West Side Manhattan Piers because they saw that by 2003 the Manhattan Piers have become obsolete. So in the unlikely event that Mr. Arison is reading this post, Mr. Arison if the NYC officials demand anything else from you that is not fair, please consider the idea to start docking the Cunard Ships in Bayonne,New Jersey. Regards,Jerry

Edited November 6, 2013 by Cruise Liner Fan