Credit Card accepatance in Europe?

[John Bull]

Please name for me a US issued card, other than the one issued by UNFCU and now by First Tech FCU that is primarily pin preferred. If you can, I will eat my words..

 

 

"Primarily PIN-preferred", and "sig-preferred" are phrases I've never come across.

 

Suffice it to say that I have seen on both Cruise Critic and TripAdvisor, threads where American folk have been issued with chip&PIN (yes, active & working PIN) cards for foreign travel.

But I'm not about to waste hours trawling for examples just to make you change your diet ;), you'll have to take my word for it. Though you probably won't, since you don't seem able to accept that kiwimum and WatchHill have used US-issued cards as chip&PIN in Europe - even though on another thread you have yourself conceded that when abroad some US chip & sig cards can be prompted to use a PIN rather than a sig.

 

JB :)

[MATHA531]

"Primarily PIN-preferred", and "sig-preferred" are phrases I've never come across.

 

Suffice it to say that I have seen on both Cruise Critic and TripAdvisor, threads where American folk have been issued with chip&PIN (yes, active & working PIN) cards for foreign travel.

But I'm not about to waste hours trawling for examples just to make you change your diet ;), you'll have to take my word for it. Though you probably won't, since you don't seem able to accept that kiwimum and WatchHill have used US-issued cards as chip&PIN in Europe - even though on another thread you have yourself conceded that when abroad some US chip & sig cards can be prompted to use a PIN rather than a sig.

 

JB :)

 

ex

 

You can tell me I'm wrong from now until the chickens come home to roost. I have had that card as well as the USAA card whose statement regarding chip and signature I have put on the board. I am not trying to defend this. Visa USA has been the driving force behind this. I was in Europe earlier in the month with several different cards including one from USAA. The only card that asked for a pin, each time I used it, was UNFCU. You don't want to take my word for it, that is your prerogative. Again, I refer you to the flyer talk forum where there is an 816 page thread on emv cards in the USA. Many of the people on that forum are screaming bloody murder that they want pins; as it stands now, for the most part they are not going to get them on USA issued cards. The whole world there can't be wrong but you're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe. When the 01 October deadline rolls around in the USA there will be very few chip and pin cards but plenty of chip and signature cards. As part of this deal, visa is pushing the abolition of cvm's at unpersonneled kiosks. I am not saying how effective this will ultimately be.

 

Now again, you are screaming at the messenger. I would have preferred pins. But before the USA finally decided to go with emv, Americans were increasingly running into situations where merchants, illegally according to the card networks, refused to process their cards. Over the past two years, more and more Americans have cards with the emv chip but again whether you wish to believe me or not or the 816 pages on flyer talk, the vast majority of these cards have decided to use signatures as the primary card verification method. Just above, is the rationale from USAA as to why they decided to go with signature preference. The document is less than two months old.

 

Is pin more secure than signature? Of course it is. I am not for one second disputing that. But this is the deck we in America have been dealt and it is simple in line with the way things are done in America where whatever the rest of the world does, the Americans will do it differently (See the stupidity of continuing with the imperial system of measurements, Farenheit thermometer, different frequencies for gsm phones, an expensive but incompetent medical system which is only good for the insurance companies, a failure to embrace chip and pin yada yada yada. I'm sorry you're angry at me trying to explain what is going on but I would not write it if I wasn't sure as to what I am writing. Now you're welcome to believe whomever you want and if you don't want to take the time to look at the thread on flyer talk, I can't say I blame you. But I really do know what I'm talking about since as I've said, I've been looking for a "true" chip and pin card with no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program for the past 2 years. I haven't found one yet. Sincerely.

[Bob++]

If "you" discover your card has been stolen, file a police report or the equivalent depending on the location of the crime. With a police report number, "you" will not be liable for any fraudulent purchases made before you alerted the bank that administers your credit card. In fact, consider a three- step process. Call the bank and tell them to freeze the account. File a police report. Call the bank a second time and provide the police report case number.

 

After looking at the relevant American law, I concede that you are quite right. Someone is going to pay for those stolen goods though and it sure ain't the crooks. Not the merchant who accepted the card in good faith either - That $85 charge (Is that correct?), as well as the usurious interest rate that those who run up credit have to pay, is what pays for them

Edited July 6, 2015 by Bob++

[WatchHill]

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." John Donne

 

Personal experience trumps what someone had read or heard.

 

John Bull, you are so correct. Kiwimum and I have successfully used US issued C & P credit cards abroad with success. Barclay's issues a variety of cards, and the one I have permits me to use it at POS without interacting with a sales clerk. I've used the card to pick up rail tickets at a kiosk when arriving in Amsterdam - cheaper than purchasing tickets from an agent. Also purchased Swiss Rail passes in Zurich at a kiosk using my PIN.

 

When I applied for this particular credit card, I must have asked the folks at Barclay's a half dozen times to clarify the C & P process and said I would cancel in a heart beat if it didn't work as promised...and saved an annual fee after one year of use. I have had the card for a few years, and receive numerous consumer and travel perks that mitigate the fee.

 

Oh, John Bull - Thanks for your suggestion to avoid the park & ride near Salisbury and go directly to Mill Stream Approach. There was ample parking, and after a tour of the Cathedral, and pub lunch, we got a 2 hour parking refund for a small purchase at Sainsbury's.

 

Darcy

[MATHA531]

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." John Donne

 

Personal experience trumps what someone had read or heard.

 

John Bull, you are so correct. Kiwimum and I have successfully used US issued C & P credit cards abroad with success. Barclay's issues a variety of cards, and the one I have permits me to use it at POS without interacting with a sales clerk. I've used the card to pick up rail tickets at a kiosk when arriving in Amsterdam - cheaper than purchasing tickets from an agent. Also purchased Swiss Rail passes in Zurich at a kiosk using my PIN.

 

When I applied for this particular credit card, I must have asked the folks at Barclay's a half dozen times to clarify the C & P process and said I would cancel in a heart beat if it didn't work as promised...and saved an annual fee after one year of use. I have had the card for a few years, and receive numerous consumer and travel perks that mitigate the fee.

 

Oh, John Bull - Thanks for your suggestion to avoid the park & ride near Salisbury and go directly to Mill Stream Approach. There was ample parking, and after a tour of the Cathedral, and pub lunch, we got a 2 hour parking refund for a small purchase at Sainsbury's.

 

Darcy

 

Watchill...I absolutely agree with you. The Barclaycard with emv chip will work as a chip and pin card at places like railroad kiosks. I never said they don't. Are you telling us that your card never asks for a signature say if you use it at Boots or Sainsbury? What you are saying does back up what I said, Barclays Bank USA issues cards whose number 1 card verification method is signature. If signature fails, it goes on to the next one on the list which indeed is pin. And without anger or anything like that, I'll tell you what to settle a nickel wager (my maximum wager amount btw). What are your experiences (I assume you are in the USA) in using the card at Walmart? Does it ask for a pin?

 

Without trying to be too technical because I am not a geek. All emv compliant cards, have a list of card verification methods (cvm's) written into the chip. Many on Flyer Talk have chip readers and use an app called Card Peak I believe to decipher the results. They can list the order of the cvm's on any particular card. Almost universally, cards issued in the USA today have as their number 1 cvm signature. If the card is used in a pos terminal which recognizes signature which almost all do everywhere, that's the end of the game. A message will flash signature required, usually a slip will print for the customer to sign although more so in the USA signatures are collected electronically on the screens not as much in Europe although there are some, the merchant is supposed to compare the signature on the slip or screen with the signature on the card and press a button to complete the transaction. What I've said, that is usually the way it happens. As of now almost universally in the USA with the exception of Walmart although some others are beginning to accept emv cards as signature cards. I am sure most will agree with me that this is next to useless and pin is more secure but this is the way the banks have implemented emv here. I am not for one second claiming otherwise.

 

If signature fails, say at a kiosk in picking up railroad tickets, the next item on the cvm list on many cards in offline pin; the system used in Europe. I never said the cards issued by Barclays USA do not have this capability.

 

The problem with this until recently was there were a growing number of merchants who when the signature required message flashed refused to complete the transaction under the misguided notion their liability was increased if a pin wasn't used and many Americans who travel a lot were running into more and more trouble which besides the security issue was one of the reasons that helped some of the American banks get off their rear ends and begin implementing emv. I remember at that time when I read on the Flyer Talk forum that Andrews FCU was now issuing chip and pin cards and hurried to get one (as did many others). We were almost shocked when we found out that the card would not function as chip and pin at most pos terminals but chip and signature. Other US banks began offering what they called chip and pin cards but in reality they were primary chip and signature with pin capabilities. We soon discovered what the rationale was which was illustrated in the USAA document I posted above i.e. it was claimed that since Americans carry more cards than most others (probably true; I have about 9 or 10 accounts all with chips and all with different pins for use if signature fails in a kiosk or in some cases no pin at all). Again, I am not defending this, I'm just reporting this. Probably the real reason the networks in the USA have not pushed pins is the usual one i.e. money. Who should pay for the new terminals needed to process emv cards? Pins introduce an additional cost. What about restaurants? One of the major sources of the theft of credit card information to produce counterfeit magnetic strip cards occurs at restaurants. Many of us feel a restaurant such as Denny's where you get a bill and pay at the cashier is kind of low class (I called that the Denny's way). At most restaurants, of course, the waiter brings a bill, you hand over your card, the waiter takes it to some back room where heaven only knows what can happen, the waiter brings back the slip for you to sign and optionally add a tip. I have begun to insist when this happens that I go with the waiter to the back room and that sometimes embarrasses by dining companion (despite the fact that in the USA we have zero liability for fraud under American law and because of competitive pressures). Now of course the solution to the problem are the portable wireless terminals so common outside the USA. Most restaurants in the USA do not want to spring for them. Why not? Of course the cost and that will be another impediment to using pins in the USA.

 

Look. I try to add humor to my posts which sometimes some may interpret as sarcasm. I don't understand the anger being expressed by some to my posts which are intended to be helpful and also answer such ridiculous statements I see not only here but on other forums regarding this issue. If you want a pin preferred emv copliant credit card, there are very few options available from USA banks as of today. Some feel this is just a transition step to get people used to inserting their cards rather than swiping and that pins will follow. Perhaps. Or perhaps the American financial sector is waiting for something else to come along as I presume you guys criticizing me understand emv does nothing about online fraud and the expectation that once the easy counterfeiting of magnetic strip USA cards is brought under control, fraud will shift there. Credit card fraud is today's version of armed bank robbery during the depression in America only no guns are used.

 

The vast majority of Americans couldn't care less as most don't travel. Many will find it traumatic to have to insert their new credit cards rather than to swipe them; trust me I see that at Walmart all the time. Of course in theory if you have an emv card, the pos terminal is not supposed to recognize the magnetic strip if the terminal is emv compliant. Walmart had to override that for a good part of the holiday season, so difficult it was to get people used to inserting their cards.

 

Now this is a summary of the 816 page and growing by the day Flyer Talk forum. Yes it is long and wordy but I don't know how to report the facts. But, yes this is the way I live today in the 21st century. I rarely spend cash for anything I buy no matter how large or small no matter at home or abroad. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and not once did I spend cash for anything. I arrived in Europe with $50 US, £20 and €30 and that cash never left my wallet.

 

I'm sorry if what I'm saying ruffles some feathers but I just don't understand the anger being directed at me in trying to explain just what is going on. Now if anything I have said is false; if anybody has a true pin preferred emv card available to Americans with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program, I would love to hear as that is the card I'm still looking for.

 

Let the flaming begin.

Edited July 6, 2015 by MATHA531

[WatchHill]

[QUOTE=MATHA531;47038331]Watchill...I absolutely agree with you. The Barclaycard with emv chip will work as a chip and pin card at places like railroad kiosks. I never said they don't. Are you telling us that your card never asks for a signature say if you use it at Boots or Sainsbury? What you are saying does back up what I said, Barclays Bank USA issues cards whose number 1 card verification method is signature. If signature fails, it goes on to the next one on the list which indeed is pin. And without anger or anything like that, I'll tell you what to settle a nickel wager (my maximum wager amount btw). What are your experiences (I assume you are in the USA) in using the card at Walmart? Does it ask for a pin?

 

Without trying to be too technical because I am not a geek. All emv compliant cards, have a list of card verification methods (cvm's) written into the chip. Many on Flyer Talk have chip readers and use an app called Card Peak I believe to decipher the results. They can list the order of the cvm's on any particular card. Almost universally, cards issued in the USA today have as their number 1 cvm signature. If the card is used in a pos terminal which recognizes signature which almost all do everywhere, that's the end of the game. A message will flash signature required, usually a slip will print for the customer to sign although more so in the USA signatures are collected electronically on the screens not as much in Europe although there are some, the merchant is supposed to compare the signature on the slip or screen with the signature on the card and press a button to complete the transaction. What I've said, that is usually the way it happens. As of now almost universally in the USA with the exception of Walmart although some others are beginning to accept emv cards as signature cards. I am sure most will agree with me that this is next to useless and pin is more secure but this is the way the banks have implemented emv here. I am not for one second claiming otherwise.

 

If signature fails, say at a kiosk in picking up railroad tickets, the next item on the cvm list on many cards in offline pin; the system used in Europe. I never said the cards issued by Barclays USA do not have this capability.

 

The problem with this until recently was there were a growing number of merchants who when the signature required message flashed refused to complete the transaction under the misguided notion their liability was increased if a pin wasn't used and many Americans who travel a lot were running into more and more trouble which besides the security issue was one of the reasons that helped some of the American banks get off their rear ends and begin implementing emv. I remember at that time when I read on the Flyer Talk forum that Andrews FCU was now issuing chip and pin cards and hurried to get one (as did many others). We were almost shocked when we found out that the card would not function as chip and pin at most pos terminals but chip and signature. Other US banks began offering what they called chip and pin cards but in reality they were primary chip and signature with pin capabilities. We soon discovered what the rationale was which was illustrated in the USAA document I posted above i.e. it was claimed that since Americans carry more cards than most others (probably true; I have about 9 or 10 accounts all with chips and all with different pins for use if signature fails in a kiosk or in some cases no pin at all). Again, I am not defending this, I'm just reporting this. Probably the real reason the networks in the USA have not pushed pins is the usual one i.e. money. Who should pay for the new terminals needed to process emv cards? Pins introduce an additional cost. What about restaurants? One of the major sources of the theft of credit card information to produce counterfeit magnetic strip cards occurs at restaurants. Many of us feel a restaurant such as Denny's where you get a bill and pay at the cashier is kind of low class (I called that the Denny's way). At most restaurants, of course, the waiter brings a bill, you hand over your card, the waiter takes it to some back room where heaven only knows what can happen, the waiter brings back the slip for you to sign and optionally add a tip. I have begun to insist when this happens that I go with the waiter to the back room and that sometimes embarrasses by dining companion (despite the fact that in the USA we have zero liability for fraud under American law and because of competitive pressures). Now of course the solution to the problem are the portable wireless terminals so common outside the USA. Most restaurants in the USA do not want to spring for them. Why not? Of course the cost and that will be another impediment to using pins in the USA.

 

Look. I try to add humor to my posts which sometimes some may interpret as sarcasm. I don't understand the anger being expressed by some to my posts which are intended to be helpful and also answer such ridiculous statements I see not only here but on other forums regarding this issue. If you want a pin preferred emv copliant credit card, there are very few options available from USA banks as of today. Some feel this is just a transition step to get people used to inserting their cards rather than swiping and that pins will follow. Perhaps. Or perhaps the American financial sector is waiting for something else to come along as I presume you guys criticizing me understand emv does nothing about online fraud and the expectation that once the easy counterfeiting of magnetic strip USA cards is brought under control, fraud will shift there. Credit card fraud is today's version of armed bank robbery during the depression in America only no guns are used.

 

The vast majority of Americans couldn't care less as most don't travel. Many will find it traumatic to have to insert their new credit cards rather than to swipe them; trust me I see that at Walmart all the time. Of course in theory if you have an emv card, the pos terminal is not supposed to recognize the magnetic strip if the terminal is emv compliant. Walmart had to override that for a good part of the holiday season, so difficult it was to get people used to inserting their cards.

 

Now this is a summary of the 816 page and growing by the day Flyer Talk forum. Yes it is long and wordy but I don't know how to report the facts. But, yes this is the way I live today in the 21st century. I rarely spend cash for anything I buy no matter how large or small no matter at home or abroad. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and not once did I spend cash for anything. I arrived in Europe with $50 US, £20 and €30 and that cash never left my wallet.

 

I'm sorry if what I'm saying ruffles some feathers but I just don't understand the anger being directed at me in trying to explain just what is going on. Now if anything I have said is false; if anybody has a true pin preferred emv card available to Americans with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program, I would love to hear as that is the card I'm still looking for.

 

Let the flaming begin.

First, I have never been in a Walmart, so I cannot comment on using my Barclaycard there.

 

Second, I used it without signature at Kensington Palace gift shop and snack bar. I sued the card at check out in both Sainsbury's and Waitrose - again, I inserted the card into the CC slot and it asked for my PIN which I entered. At each restaurant we stopped in, the server came to the table with a hand held device, I inserted my card and then entered my PIN - nobody ever walked away from the table with my card. No slips came out of the hand held for me to sign.

 

Darcy

Edited July 6, 2015 by WatchHill

[MATHA531]

[QUOTE=MATHA531;47038331]Watchill...I absolutely agree with you. The Barclaycard with emv chip will work as a chip and pin card at places like railroad kiosks. I never said they don't. Are you telling us that your card never asks for a signature say if you use it at Boots or Sainsbury? What you are saying does back up what I said, Barclays Bank USA issues cards whose number 1 card verification method is signature. If signature fails, it goes on to the next one on the list which indeed is pin. And without anger or anything like that, I'll tell you what to settle a nickel wager (my maximum wager amount btw). What are your experiences (I assume you are in the USA) in using the card at Walmart? Does it ask for a pin?

 

Without trying to be too technical because I am not a geek. All emv compliant cards, have a list of card verification methods (cvm's) written into the chip. Many on Flyer Talk have chip readers and use an app called Card Peak I believe to decipher the results. They can list the order of the cvm's on any particular card. Almost universally, cards issued in the USA today have as their number 1 cvm signature. If the card is used in a pos terminal which recognizes signature which almost all do everywhere, that's the end of the game. A message will flash signature required, usually a slip will print for the customer to sign although more so in the USA signatures are collected electronically on the screens not as much in Europe although there are some, the merchant is supposed to compare the signature on the slip or screen with the signature on the card and press a button to complete the transaction. What I've said, that is usually the way it happens. As of now almost universally in the USA with the exception of Walmart although some others are beginning to accept emv cards as signature cards. I am sure most will agree with me that this is next to useless and pin is more secure but this is the way the banks have implemented emv here. I am not for one second claiming otherwise.

 

If signature fails, say at a kiosk in picking up railroad tickets, the next item on the cvm list on many cards in offline pin; the system used in Europe. I never said the cards issued by Barclays USA do not have this capability.

 

The problem with this until recently was there were a growing number of merchants who when the signature required message flashed refused to complete the transaction under the misguided notion their liability was increased if a pin wasn't used and many Americans who travel a lot were running into more and more trouble which besides the security issue was one of the reasons that helped some of the American banks get off their rear ends and begin implementing emv. I remember at that time when I read on the Flyer Talk forum that Andrews FCU was now issuing chip and pin cards and hurried to get one (as did many others). We were almost shocked when we found out that the card would not function as chip and pin at most pos terminals but chip and signature. Other US banks began offering what they called chip and pin cards but in reality they were primary chip and signature with pin capabilities. We soon discovered what the rationale was which was illustrated in the USAA document I posted above i.e. it was claimed that since Americans carry more cards than most others (probably true; I have about 9 or 10 accounts all with chips and all with different pins for use if signature fails in a kiosk or in some cases no pin at all). Again, I am not defending this, I'm just reporting this. Probably the real reason the networks in the USA have not pushed pins is the usual one i.e. money. Who should pay for the new terminals needed to process emv cards? Pins introduce an additional cost. What about restaurants? One of the major sources of the theft of credit card information to produce counterfeit magnetic strip cards occurs at restaurants. Many of us feel a restaurant such as Denny's where you get a bill and pay at the cashier is kind of low class (I called that the Denny's way). At most restaurants, of course, the waiter brings a bill, you hand over your card, the waiter takes it to some back room where heaven only knows what can happen, the waiter brings back the slip for you to sign and optionally add a tip. I have begun to insist when this happens that I go with the waiter to the back room and that sometimes embarrasses by dining companion (despite the fact that in the USA we have zero liability for fraud under American law and because of competitive pressures). Now of course the solution to the problem are the portable wireless terminals so common outside the USA. Most restaurants in the USA do not want to spring for them. Why not? Of course the cost and that will be another impediment to using pins in the USA.

 

Look. I try to add humor to my posts which sometimes some may interpret as sarcasm. I don't understand the anger being expressed by some to my posts which are intended to be helpful and also answer such ridiculous statements I see not only here but on other forums regarding this issue. If you want a pin preferred emv copliant credit card, there are very few options available from USA banks as of today. Some feel this is just a transition step to get people used to inserting their cards rather than swiping and that pins will follow. Perhaps. Or perhaps the American financial sector is waiting for something else to come along as I presume you guys criticizing me understand emv does nothing about online fraud and the expectation that once the easy counterfeiting of magnetic strip USA cards is brought under control, fraud will shift there. Credit card fraud is today's version of armed bank robbery during the depression in America only no guns are used.

 

The vast majority of Americans couldn't care less as most don't travel. Many will find it traumatic to have to insert their new credit cards rather than to swipe them; trust me I see that at Walmart all the time. Of course in theory if you have an emv card, the pos terminal is not supposed to recognize the magnetic strip if the terminal is emv compliant. Walmart had to override that for a good part of the holiday season, so difficult it was to get people used to inserting their cards.

 

Now this is a summary of the 816 page and growing by the day Flyer Talk forum. Yes it is long and wordy but I don't know how to report the facts. But, yes this is the way I live today in the 21st century. I rarely spend cash for anything I buy no matter how large or small no matter at home or abroad. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and not once did I spend cash for anything. I arrived in Europe with $50 US, £20 and €30 and that cash never left my wallet.

 

I'm sorry if what I'm saying ruffles some feathers but I just don't understand the anger being directed at me in trying to explain just what is going on. Now if anything I have said is false; if anybody has a true pin preferred emv card available to Americans with no annual fee, no foreign transaction fee and a decent rewards program, I would love to hear as that is the card I'm still looking for.

 

Let the flaming begin.

First, I have never been in a Walmart, so I cannot comment on using my Barclaycard there.

 

Second, I used it without signature at Kensington Palace gift shop and snack bar. I sued the card at check out in both Sainsbury's and Waitrose - again, I inserted the card into the CC slot and it asked for my PIN which I entered. At each restaurant we stopped in, the server came to the table with a hand held device, I inserted my card and then entered my PIN - nobody ever walked away from the table with my card. No slips came out of the hand held for me to sign.

 

Darcy

 

Which Barclaycard do you have? I want to apply for it if (and I'm doubting you) what you say is true!

 

m531

[John Bull]

Yes, Matha, much of my missive was about the US system & I was indeed shooting the messenger ;)

But it was also tempered by your apparent belittling of chip-and-PIN and the experiences of others.

 

Complicated, innit? :D

 

But the important info in this thread is that US cards with no card-holder's PIN code are accepted at manned outlets in Europe, barring rare examples such as the occasional isolated back-of-beyond French gas station.

But they are unlikely to be usable in un-manned machines such as your supermarket self-checkout example or, more importantly, travel ticket machines or left-luggage lockers. In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card.

Or you can use cash.

Nothing insurmountable

And perhaps that's how we should all have left it. ;)

 

JB :)

Edited July 6, 2015 by John Bull

[MATHA531]

Yes, Matha, much of my missive was about the US system & I was indeed shooting the messenger ;)

But it was also tempered by your apparent belittling of chip-and-PIN and the experiences of others.

 

Complicated, innit? :D

 

But the important info in this thread is that US cards with no card-holder's PIN code are accepted at manned outlets in Europe, barring rare examples such as the occasional isolated back-of-beyond French gas station.

But they are unlikely to be usable in un-manned machines such as your supermarket self-checkout example or, more importantly, travel ticket machines or left-luggage lockers. In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card.

Or you can use cash.

Nothing insurmountable

And perhaps that's how we should all have left it. ;)

 

JB :)

 

Actually jb they do work at supermarket self serve checkouts; it's just you have to wait for somebody to come over, enter his or her code, have a receipt printed and signed and never looked at to finish the transaction.

 

Two other quickies. First fewer and fewer kiosks are rejecting non pin cards out of hand in lines with new regulations effective 01 July 2015 from visa/mc and amex. Only time will tell how effective these regs end up being.

 

Secondly during my recent trip to the UK, I did notice a fall off in the number of clerks who check signatures. More often than not, I insert a signature card, the terminal says remove card and the card goes back in my wallet. In the past, I was almost always asked by the clerk to see the card and check the signature. On this trip, almost all the time the clerk did not bother.

 

Look my question about signatures remain. In the USA, the merchant agreements allow merchants to forego signatures for small purchases and it increases the efficiency of paying for goods. What I don't know, I admit, is whether UK merchant agreements have the same provisions. In my opinion, and it's onlhy my opinion and who am I to have an opinion, in terms of fraud prevention signature verification is next to useless and silly for small purchases. But if those are the rules, then merchants do have to follow them.

 

531

[Cotswold Eagle]

 

Look my question about signatures remain. In the USA, the merchant agreements allow merchants to forego signatures for small purchases and it increases the efficiency of paying for goods. What I don't know, I admit, is whether UK merchant agreements have the same provisions. In my opinion, and it's onlhy my opinion and who am I to have an opinion, in terms of fraud prevention signature verification is next to useless and silly for small purchases. But if those are the rules, then merchants do have to follow them.

 

531

 

Do you have source for this assertion? It sounds (although it is often difficult to decipher your somewhat unique debating style....) that you are describing systems such as VEPS? My reading of both Visa and MasterCard merchant agreements are that those sort of arrangements are exceptions, not the rule. The global standard in both (or certainly the copies I have) is that signatures MUST be compared.

[markeb]

Do you have source for this assertion? It sounds (although it is often difficult to decipher your somewhat unique debating style....) that you are describing systems such as VEPS? My reading of both Visa and MasterCard merchant agreements are that those sort of arrangements are exceptions, not the rule. The global standard in both (or certainly the copies I have) is that signatures MUST be compared.

 

I don't have a source, but this is pretty much standard in the US. I first noticed it a couple of years ago from AMEX. With AMEX, pretty much any in person transaction under $50 (at least on my account; there may be other limits) simply goes through with a "Transaction Complete" message at the POS terminal, in the US. At Costco, for instance, I think it's actually $100. And those are manned POS terminals. Don't get me started about buying gas (petrol :)) at unmanned terminals...

[MATHA531]

Do you have source for this assertion? It sounds (although it is often difficult to decipher your somewhat unique debating style....) that you are describing systems such as VEPS? My reading of both Visa and MasterCard merchant agreements are that those sort of arrangements are exceptions, not the rule. The global standard in both (or certainly the copies I have) is that signatures MUST be compared.

.

 

Indeed that's what my question is. I understand different strokes for different folks and that regs in the USA might be different from elsewhere (sometimes there are different rules in the US in different states). As I simply said, it is silly to check signatures for small purchases but if it's required I am not saying ignore the regulations. The merchant agreements in the USA do allow merchants to skip even collecting signatures for small purchases and as noted, that is almost the norm in the USA today. Efficiency over security? Perhaps but as I said, I don't think checking signatures if a very effective deterrent to credit card fraud. You and others might disagree and I would never even think of criticizing a contrary opinion.

[John Bull]

Actually jb they do work at supermarket self serve checkouts; it's just you have to wait for somebody to come over, enter his or her code, have a receipt printed and signed and never looked at to finish the transaction.

 

 

Ain't that what I said? ;)

"In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card".

 

JB :)

[MATHA531]

Ain't that what I said? ;)

"In most cases there's an attendant, who can process a non-PIN card".

 

JB :)

 

 

 

But where the problem comes in is when you stand there for four o five minutes waiting for an attendant to come over to do his thing.

[John Bull]

But where the problem comes in is when you stand there for four o five minutes waiting for an attendant to come over to do his thing.

 

Ha ha. :D

That always happens to me if I dare use a self-checkout in stores.

Nothing to do with my chip&PIN credit card, that's the easy bit.

But I don't get that far in the transaction before I hit a problem - a product that won't scan, or it's short-date price reduction, or what to do with a loyalty card or discount voucher.

 

The answer for technophobic dinosaurs like me is to use a regular manned check-out.

Simples. :cool:

 

JB :)