Credit Card accepatance in Europe?

[MATHA531]

There is so much misinformation out there regarding this and even here in some of the responses. I will try to give correct information as of today.

 

The USA credit card industry has imposed a deadline of 01 October 2015 after which liability for fraudulent charges switches to the merchant if a card containing an emv chip is used in a swipe transaction and turns out to be a counterfeit card.

 

For whatever the reason, and I am just the messenger here, the USA is NOT going chip and pin but rather chip and signature preferred. That means that all credit cards issued in the USA containing the emv chips will default to signature transactions whether in the USA or in Europe or wherever even if it is claimed the card is chip and pin. Many will, if chip and signature fails say at an unpersonneled kiosk be able to do a chip and pin transaction (signature preferred but pin capable is probably the best way to describe this). Some but by no means all. Many banks will not issue pins with their emv compliant cards (Chase is an example). Also their customer service reps (csr's) tell customers that using a pin will create a cash advance. That is a downright lie. For other cards, say Bank of America Travel Rewards, the cash advance pin will sometimes work to complete a transaction. Sometimes but not always.

 

As of this writing, the only US financial institution that issues a "true" chip and pin where pin is preferred card is UNFCU. First Tech FCU claims to be issuing such cards as they switch from visa to mc. That's it. Any other card issued by a US bank will be chip and signature preferred.

.

Chip and signature is almost as good as chip and pin except in the case where the actual card is lost or stolen. The emv chip is what provides the added security not whether a signature is used for verification or a pin.

 

For the most part there are no problems using chip and signature cards at personneled point of sale (pos) terminals. Now new regulations have been issued effective 01 July 2015 supposedly prohibiting unpersonneled kiosks from refusing cards for lack of a pin. There has been some movement here and in many cases kiosks which one rejected chip and signature cards automatically, say SNCF ticketing machines, now take them as they are required to do so. Whether that guarantees you will be able to use a chip and signature card at an unpersonneled petrol station in rural France on a Sunday afternoon is another question. Yes they are now required to do so but if they don't what are you going to do? Yell at the pump they are bad boys and in violation of new visa regulations? This will just have to play out.

 

This is the latest on the situation in the USA regarding emv compliant chipped cards. One of the things I would like to see and has no value is that when I was in the UK, I might want to use the self service checkout at Boots when I bought two 1/2 liter bottles of Diet Coke Cherry for £2. Now in the USA in many if not most places today, they don't bother with signature for small purchases under $50 and nobody looks at them anyway. In the UK, when I did the self service thing, the machine started telling me an attendant was needed and in some cases made me wait three or four minutes for an employee to come over to enter a code, print a receipt for me to sign, never look at it or compare it with the signature on the card and complete the transaction. It is silly to bother with signatures for small purchases under say £30 (this is called no card verification method of no cvm) allowed under visa/mc regulations but still in Britain, they stick to their stubbornness of making a big charade out of chcking signatures which is kind of silly. I wonder how much fraud they have stopped on small purchases by looking and collecting signatures.

[Bob++]

What you say exactly illustrates why a four figure PIN is better than a signature. Not perfect, but better. Most people have a hard time duplicating the signature on their cards (I certainly did) and most sales people hardly ever bother to look. The C&P requires that the card presenter also knows those four digits.

 

If your card is stolen, and cards are a prime target for the (mostly East European) scrotes that steal from tourists and locals alike, the thief has until you discover the theft and get the card stopped to buy stuff at your expense. He will likely buy small and expensive electricals and jewelery. With a PIN, they can't do it so easily. Of course they have ways of getting a PIN, like concealed cameras at ATMs, but it presents an added level of difficulty.

[Keith1010]

We have found that on all our purchases with the credit card with the chip (no pin) that the shop merchants in the UK and in other parts of Europe carefully checked the back of my card comparing my signature on the card to what I signed. I was very impressed. The don't do that here in the states.

 

Keith

[Bob++]

We have found that on all our purchases with the credit card with the chip (no pin) that the shop merchants in the UK and in other parts of Europe carefully checked the back of my card comparing my signature on the card to what I signed. I was very impressed. The don't do that here in the states.

 

Keith

 

That's simply because they don't do it very often. Anything out of the ordinary will always make them suspicious. Try offering a £50 note and see how they react. Some shops will refuse them altogether and others will send for a supervisor.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Bob++

[MATHA531]

What you say exactly illustrates why a four figure PIN is better than a signature. Not perfect, but better. Most people have a hard time duplicating the signature on their cards (I certainly did) and most sales people hardly ever bother to look. The C&P requires that the card presenter also knows those four digits.

 

If your card is stolen, and cards are a prime target for the (mostly East European) scrotes that steal from tourists and locals alike, the thief has until you discover the theft and get the card stopped to buy stuff at your expense. He will likely buy small and expensive electricals and jewelery. With a PIN, they can't do it so easily. Of course they have ways of getting a PIN, like concealed cameras at ATMs, but it presents an added level of difficulty.

 

One thing I didn't note and you didn't point out. You write the thief can steal at your expense. Absolutely untrue. In the USA, legislation passed in the 1970's and still in effect prohibit credit card companies from collecting more than $50 from you if your card is used fraudulently. In actual practice, no bank even bothers with the $50. You have no liability, repeat no liability, for fraud perpetrated on your credit cards and this is no different elsewhere for credit card holders. Don't lay awake at night worried that your credit cards will be used fraudulently and yes my credit card has been compromised several times in the past. A phone call will get the fraudulent charges erased, a new card with a new number will be immediately issued and life will go on as before.

[MATHA531]

We have found that on all our purchases with the credit card with the chip (no pin) that the shop merchants in the UK and in other parts of Europe carefully checked the back of my card comparing my signature on the card to what I signed. I was very impressed. The don't do that here in the states.

 

Keith

 

Two things. One I never sign my sales slips the same way I have signed my credit card and while some merchants do go through this charade of checking and comparing the signatures, none has ever said anything. Do you expect a 16 year old student holding down a summer job at minimum wage to give a flying you know what about the signature? Signature verification is totally useless as a security means on credit card purchases so why bother with small amounts? However, on my latest trip to England just completed a couple of weeks ago, I noticed a fall off in the number of clerks who do check signatures and of course in the United States, more and more merchants do not even bother with having people sign for purchases under $50 (which is now almost but not quite the norm) and if you're American, when is the last time you saw a merchant check a signature? Just today, I went to the supermarket and the person in front of me bought close to $200 worth of groceries, swiped her card, and nobody looked. Fraud has not substantially increased for this and once the USA goes chip and signature (hardly any merchants even if you present a "true" chip and pin card, have the pin pads or intend to get them to accept pin preferred cards), that type of fraud will become more under control. Incidentally, most restaurants are refusing to splurge for the portable terminals necessary to perform chip and pin transactions at the table and will ultimately be chip and signature.

[WatchHill]

The chip & pin on my Barclaycard, is just that - a credit card, not using it for cash advance while in Europe. After the first and only signature at Paddington, the card reverted to its intended profile for foreign transactions. We did both land and cruise, some 22 days, and never had an issue with the card. We did not have to sign for any purchase; only had to enter the PIN at restaurants, shops, parking, petrol, hotels, tourist sites. In fact, we charged over $4K, and no cash advances, no fees, just the bottom line of converting Euros and GBP to US $$$ without extra cost. When we got home, I verified all the charges and within the month, had a zero balance. Great card with great perks......was able to erase many of the charges with the travel points.

 

Darcy

[MATHA531]

The chip & pin on my Barclaycard, is just that - a credit card, not using it for cash advance while in Europe. After the first and only signature at Paddington, the card reverted to its intended profile for foreign transactions. We did both land and cruise, some 22 days, and never had an issue with the card. We did not have to sign for any purchase; only had to enter the PIN at restaurants, shops, parking, petrol, hotels, tourist sites. In fact, we charged over $4K, and no cash advances, no fees, just the bottom line of converting Euros and GBP to US $$$ without extra cost. When we got home, I verified all the charges and within the month, had a zero balance. Great card with great perks......was able to erase many of the charges with the travel points.

 

Darcy

 

I doubt you were asked for a pin at every transaction unless every transaction was at a kiosk. At restaurants and other pos establishments, this card (and I've seen the cvm list on the chip) is signature preferred and if the terminal accepts signatures, you will be asked to sign. It will function with a pin at some unpersonnelee kiosks but in general, I challenge your statement. It is a signature preferred card as their literature quite explicitly states.

 

I assume the card we're talking about was issued by Barclay Bank USA not Barclay Bank in the UK. I have this card issued by Barclay Bank USA and it always defaults to signature. If you go to the forum on flyertalk.com, you will find a modest 806 page thread on the introduction of emv cards in the United States to see where we stand if you have nothing to do.

Edited July 4, 2015 by MATHA531

[WatchHill]

I doubt you were asked for a pin at every transaction unless every transaction was at a kiosk. At restaurants and other pos establishments, this card (and I've seen the cvm list on the chip) is signature preferred and if the terminal accepts signatures, you will be asked to sign. It will function with a pin at some unpersonnelee kiosks but in general, I challenge your statement. It is a signature preferred card as their literature quite explicitly states.

 

I assume the card we're talking about was issued by Barclay Bank USA not Barclay Bank in the UK. I have this card issued by Barclay Bank USA and it always defaults to signature. If you go to the forum on flyertalk.com, you will find a modest 806 page thread on the introduction of emv cards in the United States to see where we stand if you have nothing to do.

 

Please do not question my integrity!!!! Nobody asked for a PIN; when I used the card, both at kiosks and POS shops, I inserted the card and entered my PIN, never had to sign for any purchase beyond a small purchase at Paddington Station.

 

Darcy

[Bob++]

One thing I didn't note and you didn't point out. You write the thief can steal at your expense. Absolutely untrue. In the USA, legislation passed in the 1970's and still in effect prohibit credit card companies from collecting more than $50 from you if your card is used fraudulently. In actual practice, no bank even bothers with the $50. You have no liability, repeat no liability, for fraud perpetrated on your credit cards and this is no different elsewhere for credit card holders. Don't lay awake at night worried that your credit cards will be used fraudulently and yes my credit card has been compromised several times in the past. A phone call will get the fraudulent charges erased, a new card with a new number will be immediately issued and life will go on as before.

 

That may be the rule in the USA but not here. The cardholder is liable for any fraudulent transactions right up until he reports the card stolen. I use my CC all the time for purchases and always have to enter my PIN. Of course I would never use it for cash and my Debit card is the one I use at the ATM. This has a PIN as well and it has to be entered.

 

The only time a PIN is not required here is for card-not-present purchases. For those, with my CC at least, there is additional security (password) to go through if the delivery address is different or the transaction is in some way unusual.

 

This may be of interest:

 

There are three reasons why payment card fraud is so enormous in the United States:

 

The U.S. accounts for a significant proportion of global payment card volume. That said, U.S. share of fraud is greater. For example, in 2012, the U.S. accounted for 23.5% of payment card volume but 47.3% of payment card fraud, according to Nilson.

 

The U.S. has not yet adopted the EMV or "chip card" standard popular elsewhere in the world. Among other security advantages, chip cards are difficult to duplicate for fraudulent transactions, while magnetic stripe payment cards used in the U.S. are much easier to copy.

 

Record-breaking data breaches at major retailers (most notoriously, Target) in 2013 added about $500 million to the total fraud cost in the U.S.

 

The data shows why Visa and MasterCard are going to push U.S. retailers and acquiring banks to upgrade to the "chip" standard in the next year and a half. BI Intelligence expects the U.S. share of global card fraud to decline in coming years, as the country moves to the EMV standard.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-accounts-for-over-half-of-global-payment-card-fraud-sai-2014-3#ixzz3exoydWz8

 

The individual cardholder may not lose out, but you can bet your bottom dollar that all those losses are shared among all the cardholders.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Bob++

[MATHA531]

That may be the rule in the USA but not here. The cardholder is liable for any fraudulent transactions right up until he reports the card stolen. I use my CC all the time for purchases and always have to enter my PIN. Of course I would never use it for cash and my Debit card is the one I use at the ATM. This has a PIN as well and it has to be entered.

 

The only time a PIN is not required here is for card-not-present purchases. For those, with my CC at least, there is additional security (password) to go through if the delivery address is different or the transaction is in some way unusual.

 

This may be of interest:

 

 

 

The individual cardholder may not lose out, but you can bet your bottom dollar that all those losses are shared among all the cardholders.

 

100% the article is spot on. But nowhere does it say the USA will be requiring a pin on its emv compliant cards. As a matter of fact, it is at the urging of visa mostly who claims surveys have been done and most Americans prefer signature validation. Purely and simply the die has been cast, at least for the time being, that USA issued emv compliant cards will be chip and signature. Restaurants are refusing to spring for the portable terminals necessary to implement pins at restaurants. With the two exceptions I noted, no matterwhat anybody claims one way or the other, US issued emv compliant cards list signature as the primary card verification method. Many will use offline pin as a back up but not all. As part of this whole deal, visa and mc have passed new regulations prohibiting kiosks from rejecting non pin cards out of hand. This was to take place 01 July 2015. As I noted, it has had some effect. For example, I topped up my oyster card on tfl machines for amounts around £30 and there was no card verification involved. How effective it will be remains to be seen (or as Seargeant Joe Friday used to say, just the facts).

 

As far as liability for fraud, part of the deal, from what I read in Britain was when they went to primary chip and pin about a decade ago was liability would shift to the consumer as the assumption would be they were careless with their pins (which btw is another reason that from a consumer viewpoint, signature verification is better). Then a problem arose with some emv terminals destined for Shell stations and although at first the banks claimed emv transactions could not be carried out without pins, they discovered otherwise. I cannot comment on the liability laws in the UK or elsewhere because I don't know them. I can say with 100% certainty that USA cardholders have zero liability for fraudulent charges so there is no need to lay awake at night worrying your credit card might be cloned. If it is, and it's appened to me a couple of phone calls will straighten it out. Credit card fraud is not identity theft which is a horse of a different color.

 

I am not here to defend the situation, I'm just explaining it. Again, I refer people who are interested in this to the 806 page thread on flyertalk.com where all this is discussed. I have travelled extensively with several different cards and they all have chips including Barclsy Arrival+ (which I had to get rid of when they refused to waive the $89 annual fee although they had some nice reward programs). They all have chips. Several claim to be chip and pin. The only one that has functioned as a chip and pin card all the time is the one issued by UNFCU. Unfortunately it comes with a 1% foreign transaction fee which is 1% higher than it should be so it's not a card I use often. Just the facts, mam.

[MATHA531]

Actually Bob (I assume you are from Britain) I get what you're saying. As it stands today, at least before the 01 October 2015 deadline, the card issuers are the ones who take the hit on fraud. Or do they? The latest statistics show that the US banks make a mint on their plastic card operations and the latest figures available show fraud losses total 12¢ on every $100 of profit. They don't want to do anything to steer people away from using their cards hence the zero liability even though the government legislation from the 1970's allows them to pass up to $50 to the consumers. No bank would even consider that as savy consumers would simply switch to another card. Also one of the reasons US banks are reluctant to go to pins, or so they claim, is because of the surveys they have done they worry that people will get confused by which card goes with which pin, that they will confuse pins used for purchases with pins for cash advances and that people might reach for the card that causes them the least amount of hassle i.e. the cards with signature verification which means no verifications for small amounts as few merchants in the USA even bother with signatures anymore for purchases under $50 or even look at the signatures in most cases for purchases above. I am not sure, I admit, if the same regulations permitting this are on all worldwide visa/mc merchant agreements. Some tell me yes others say no. Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here and if you visited the USA, as least as it stands today, about the only merchant where you will probably find you are asked for a pin is Walmart whose terminals will ask for pins on cards where pin is a higher priority than signature is, gjess what, the UNFCU card. Every other card in my possession when I shop at Walmart and insert the card in the emv terminal will either not ask for a signature for amounts up to at least $125 believe it or not or simply ask me to sign the terminal pad. I will wager my friend who thinks I am questioning his or her integrity to give his or her Barclaycard the Walmart test. I'll bet a nickel no pin will be asked for.

 

I am not questioning for one second anybody here as to how it is done in Britain or anywhere else. I am just reporting the facts as they stand today based on both my personal experience and what I read. But as far as this article is concerned here, if you have a US issued credit card by other than UNFCU, your card is signature preferred and you will usually be asked for a signature certainly at pos terminals and will have few problems getting the cards to work.

 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

[MATHA531]

How to use your chip card.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Using your card internatioanlly.

 

 

At chip-card terminals:

 

Insert your card into the reader – chip side up and chip end in – and leave it there until your transaction is complete. In most cases, you’ll sign for your transactions. But at self-service terminals like ticket kiosks and vending machines, you could be prompted to enter your 4-digit PIN.

 

Above quote from https://www.barclaycardus.com/servicing/chipcard.

Edited July 4, 2015 by MATHA531

[markeb]

Actually Bob (I assume you are from Britain) I get what you're saying. As it stands today, at least before the 01 October 2015 deadline, the card issuers are the ones who take the hit on fraud. Or do they? The latest statistics show that the US banks make a mint on their plastic card operations and the latest figures available show fraud losses total 12¢ on every $100 of profit. They don't want to do anything to steer people away from using their cards hence the zero liability even though the government legislation from the 1970's allows them to pass up to $50 to the consumers. No bank would even consider that as savy consumers would simply switch to another card. Also one of the reasons US banks are reluctant to go to pins, or so they claim, is because of the surveys they have done they worry that people will get confused by which card goes with which pin, that they will confuse pins used for purchases with pins for cash advances and that people might reach for the card that causes them the least amount of hassle i.e. the cards with signature verification which means no verifications for small amounts as few merchants in the USA even bother with signatures anymore for purchases under $50 or even look at the signatures in most cases for purchases above. I am not sure, I admit, if the same regulations permitting this are on all worldwide visa/mc merchant agreements. Some tell me yes others say no. Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here and if you visited the USA, as least as it stands today, about the only merchant where you will probably find you are asked for a pin is Walmart whose terminals will ask for pins on cards where pin is a higher priority than signature is, gjess what, the UNFCU card. Every other card in my possession when I shop at Walmart and insert the card in the emv terminal will either not ask for a signature for amounts up to at least $125 believe it or not or simply ask me to sign the terminal pad. I will wager my friend who thinks I am questioning his or her integrity to give his or her Barclaycard the Walmart test. I'll bet a nickel no pin will be asked for.

 

I am not questioning for one second anybody here as to how it is done in Britain or anywhere else. I am just reporting the facts as they stand today based on both my personal experience and what I read. But as far as this article is concerned here, if you have a US issued credit card by other than UNFCU, your card is signature preferred and you will usually be asked for a signature certainly at pos terminals and will have few problems getting the cards to work.

 

Please don't shoot the messenger.

 

Fascinating discussion. I'm now going to have to go back through the junk mail from USAA when they sent me my new chip cards and suggested I establish a PIN for them. I (apparently) foolishly assumed they were adopting chip & PIN which I also foolishly assumed would make international travel simpler!

 

So this is another place we've decided to be an island unto ourselves. Like GSM and the metric system... While we marvel that entire world doesn't speak American English!

[MATHA531]

Fascinating discussion. I'm now going to have to go back through the junk mail from USAA when they sent me my new chip cards and suggested I establish a PIN for them. I (apparently) foolishly assumed they were adopting chip & PIN which I also foolishly assumed would make international travel simpler!

 

So this is another place we've decided to be an island unto ourselves. Like GSM and the metric system... While we marvel that entire world doesn't speak American English!

 

I'll save you the trouble. USAA was one of the first USA banks to issue a "true" chip and pin mastercard in February 2013. I immediately pounced on it and used it on a European trip in the summer of 2013. In every case in Europe, it asked for a pin. However it was not my favorite card as it imposed a 1% foreign transaction fee so I only used it sporadically. Finally Walmart began adopting emv and in preparation for my trip last summer, I took the card to Walmart and sure enough it asked for a pin. It was my intent to use it as a backup just in case I ran into situations where merchants illegally refused to process chip and signature transactions which would be a violation of their merchant agreement. In the interim, I received a new card from USAA as they claimed my card had been damaged. No problem. The day before I left I gave it one more test at Walmart but now it didn't ask for a pin. It completed the transaction with no verification. That summer (2014) when I tried to use the new card in Europe, I was asked for a signature every time.

 

When I got home, I called USAA to find out what gives. At first they denied they had made any changes. But somebody on flyer talk ran the new card through a device that reads the chip and can print out the order of card verification on the chip. Sure enough the old card was pin priority while the new card was signature priority. USAAA finally admitted they had made the change for "business" reasons which is where we stand today.

 

You can request a pin from USAA but for it to take effect, you have to make at least one env transaction. At present, the ohnly place to ake an emv transaction in the USA is Walmart. However, the card is more assuredly signature prirority with pin capabilities. At all merchants, the card will be chip and signature. In the USA, the card will be chip and signature. At some kiosks, the card has the capability to function as chip and pin much like the Barclaycard arrival+ card. Again, rest assured, it will work most likely everywhere as do all American chip and signature cards but with a signature and not a pin.

 

One other thought to the person who thought I was questioning his or her integrity. Barclaycard is a worldwide name for cards issued by that bank. For cards issued outside the USA, it is indeed a chip and pin card. For those cards it issues to USA residents through its USA subsidiary, as I said and have shown its literature, it is chp and signature priority with pin capabilities so I hope we were talking about the same crd.

 

I love your analogy about American exceptionalism and our failure to adhere to world standards on things like having a normal system of measurements, the gsm phone frequency bit. How about the stupidity of costing the US treasury billions every year by continuing to issue $1 and $2 bank notes.

Our Canadian friends long ago abandoned $1 and $2 bills in favor of the loonie and the twonie coins. Also Canada has just gotten rid of the penny but we in the USA clings to these anachroisms Or I could talk about a single payer health system which would cut health osts by 70% and provide better medical coverage among other things. But this credit card malarkey is certainly an example of Amerkcan refusal to join the 21st century although in this particular case, chip and signature is really not all that different than chip and pin as some people try to make it out to be as the only time it really matters is if the actual card is lost or stolen and the data shows this is a very minor problem and again because of the no liability rules in the USA not a problem for cosumers.

Edited July 5, 2015 by MATHA531

[kiwimum]

Fascinating discussion. I'm now going to have to go back through the junk mail from USAA when they sent me my new chip cards and suggested I establish a PIN for them. I (apparently) foolishly assumed they were adopting chip & PIN which I also foolishly assumed would make international travel simpler!

 

 

 

So this is another place we've decided to be an island unto ourselves. Like GSM and the metric system... While we marvel that entire world doesn't speak American English!

 

 

I have had a USAA chip card for almost two years. I did not get to choose my PIn. USAA automatically assigns the pin and sends it a week or so after the card. Have had no issues using the pin in Europe or the South Pacific.

Several stores in the San Diego area are utilizing chip and sign, but it is very slow. Hopefully as chip technology is fully deployed it will become more user friendly. No where that I have used the card with a pin has it ever been considered a debit transaction.

[MATHA531]

I have had a USAA chip card for almost two years. I did not get to choose my PIn. USAA automatically assigns the pin and sends it a week or so after the card. Have had no issues using the pin in Europe or the South Pacific.

Several stores in the San Diego area are utilizing chip and sign, but it is very slow. Hopefully as chip technology is fully deployed it will become more user friendly. No where that I have used the card with a pin has it ever been considered a debit transaction.

 

Hi. Read my reply above. If your card was issued before April 2013, indeed it is chip and pin as priority 1. If that card has expired and/or for whatever reason a new card issued after a'pril 2014, it is now chip and signature priority and if you use it in Europe, will request a signature at personneled pos terminals.

[kiwimum]

My card was issued September 2013 and does not expire until September 2017. As of March 2015 it was functioning as chip and pin in London. Spain, Australia and New Zealand.

[MATHA531]

My card was issued September 2013 and does not expire until September 2017. As of March 2015 it was functioning as chip and pin in London. Spain, Australia and New Zealand.

 

Enjoy it and completely jives with what I said. If for some reason the card has to be replaced (whether by your request or theirs) the replacement card will be signature priority. Two more years of pins for you.:) But then again, every time you use it outside the USA, it costs you an additional 1% as it has a foreign transaction fee 1% higher than it should be. I would rather use say the Bank of America Travel Rewards card with no ftf and suffer the indignity of signing and get 1% back in addition. But to each his or her own I suppose.

[MATHA531]

Check out: https://communities.usaa.com/t5/USAA-News/Headed-to-Cardholders-New-Cards-With-More-Secure-Chip-Technology/ba-p/66317

 

It gives USAA's rationale behind abandoning chip and pin and going with chip and signature preference cards. So enjoy the chip and pin while you can but your number will be up when the card expires.

[Bob++]

Check out: https://communities.usaa.com/t5/USAA-News/Headed-to-Cardholders-New-Cards-With-More-Secure-Chip-Technology/ba-p/66317

 

It gives USAA's rationale behind abandoning chip and pin and going with chip and signature preference cards. So enjoy the chip and pin while you can but your number will be up when the card expires.

 

This is what they say

USAA Bank has opted to go the signature route because a majority of members are familiar with signature cards, and most U.S. consumers and merchants conduct transactions via signature.

 

Now that is, to my mind, a roundabout way of saying that USAA Bank does not think its customers are able to cope with a PIN because they are used to signatures.

[MATHA531]

Let me finish off by saying my motive in my posts here was not to put anybody down or to demonstrate my superior knowledge (even though it is superior). It is to be helpful. It is to not have American credit cardholders search for something that for the most part doesn't exist ("true" pin preference chip and pin cards) under the mistaken notion their cards will not work almost universally in Europe and elsewhere. As I said several times I hope people read what I am writing and understand it in the spirit for which it is being written; not to criticize anybody but to present the facts. I am interested in this topic for a variety of reasons as for the last 2 years, I have been searching for a credit card which has no annual fee, a half decent rewards program, yes pin preference because it is somewhat more convenient as long as those in Europe keep insisting in collecting signatures for small purchases and thus wasting my time and no foreign transaction fee. I haven't found one yet. Of course others may not feel any of these things are important. So why should I care Barclsy Bank USA charges an $89 fee for its arrival+ card which is chip and sign with pin capabilities I want that pin or why should I care that USAA charges a 1% foreign transaction fee even though they backtracked from their original plan at somebody's pressure (on Flyer Talk we have named that process pulling a USAA). If you have questions about this, please ask and you can rest assured any answers you get from me will be correct albeit full of typos because my lap top computer's damn insertion point keeps jumping something Dell can't seem to fix and if I don't know, highly unlikely of course, I will own up but once again please don't shoot the messenger. Just the facts guys and gals.

Edited July 5, 2015 by MATHA531

[John Bull]

Oh dear, Matha, you are digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. :D

 

Rather than clarifying the situation you're muddying it.

 

You've decried the security value of chip-and-PIN and exaggerated the rigmarole of using PINs. Then after making wrong assumptions about WatchHill's post you challenged WatchHill's experience even after WatchHill had re-confirmed.

Yet you claim to have "superior knowledge" on the subject.

Sorry, but methinks not.

 

I'm much more inclined to take the word of someone who's been there/done that, such as WatchHill.

And other American CC members on a number of related threads who've used chip-and-PIN cards, issued by their US banks, on trips to Europe. So I don't know why you believe only one obscure US bank issues chip-and-PIN

 

You say that "The only time that chip&PIN really matters is if the actual card is lost or stolen and the data shows this is a very minor problem"

???????

The data shows that it involves the minor matter of tens of thousands of fraudulent transactions and billions of dollars on POS purchases. You rate that as minor????

Yes, fraud in distance-selling such as e-commerce has overtaken POS fraud but POS fraud is still responsible for a huge volume of card fraud in the US and chipped cards will belatedly make a small dent in that, But it is common knowledge in Europe that adding PIN has made a huge dent in those POS card frauds.

 

You have also demeaned the checking of signatures on your trivial purchases and complain that "still in Britain, they stick to their stubbornness of making a big charade out of chcking signatures which is kind of silly."

Are two seconds out of your life so desperately important? Treat it as stubborn and silly with your own cards if you like, up to the introduction of chip&PIN I preferred to see staff being vigilant with mine.

 

And you're correct that "Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here".

Is it any wonder?

You've freely admitted that your own card has been "compromised several times". Doesn't that tell you something?

We've never ever had a card compromised, though I wait with bated breath following our US trip during which a card reader asked for the PIN on just one solitary occasion and not one signature was checked.

BTW that card is actually in my GF's name. My signature looks nothing like hers - and my name isn't Julie ;).

 

Data shows that 20% of UK card fraud is perpetrated by using US merchants.

Which is probably why we were inconvenience during that US road trip, when the card was declined by a merchant. The card issuer had suspended that card, awaiting a reply to an e-mail seeking verification of a number of mundane purchases ranging from just $6 to little more than $100, even though they'd been told of our trip.

Over-kill?

Perhaps.

But the card rep. told me that they are particularly suspicious of card activity in the USA, which has the world's highest proportion of card crime and where the card doesn't have the security of a PIN number. His comment is confirmed by a link on this thread which shows that the US has as much card crime as the rest of the world put together!!

 

You've quoted that fraud accounts for 12cents per $100 of transactions.

I read figures from a couple of years earlier - and the figure was 6cents per $100 of transactions.

If both figures are correct, that's a very unhealthy trend in the US.

 

So now it looks like chip & sig. technology is likely to be country-wide in the US by October.

Which should be seen as a good thing.

But I see it as a bad thing.

Because merchants investing now in chip & sig. equipment that's not geared to accepting PIN identification are unlikely to throw that expensive equipment away and replace it with chip&PIN in the foreseeable future.

 

As I ended my first post on this thread:

The US of A leads the world in many respects.

On the matter of card security it's way behind.

 

JB :)

[MATHA531]

Oh dear, Matha, you are digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. :D

 

Rather than clarifying the situation you're muddying it.

 

You've decried the security value of chip-and-PIN and exaggerated the rigmarole of using PINs. Then after making wrong assumptions about WatchHill's post you challenged WatchHill's experience even after WatchHill had re-confirmed.

Yet you claim to have "superior knowledge" on the subject.

Sorry, but methinks not.

 

I'm much more inclined to take the word of someone who's been there/done that, such as WatchHill.

And other American CC members on a number of related threads who've used chip-and-PIN cards, issued by their US banks, on trips to Europe. So I don't know why you believe only one obscure US bank issues chip-and-PIN

 

You say that "The only time that chip&PIN really matters is if the actual card is lost or stolen and the data shows this is a very minor problem"

???????

The data shows that it involves the minor matter of tens of thousands of fraudulent transactions and billions of dollars on POS purchases. You rate that as minor????

Yes, fraud in distance-selling such as e-commerce has overtaken POS fraud but POS fraud is still responsible for a huge volume of card fraud in the US and chipped cards will belatedly make a small dent in that, But it is common knowledge in Europe that adding PIN has made a huge dent in those POS card frauds.

 

You have also demeaned the checking of signatures on your trivial purchases and complain that "still in Britain, they stick to their stubbornness of making a big charade out of chcking signatures which is kind of silly."

Are two seconds out of your life so desperately important? Treat it as stubborn and silly with your own cards if you like, up to the introduction of chip&PIN I preferred to see staff being vigilant with mine.

 

And you're correct that "Visitors to the USA are amazed at how lax the use of credit cards are here".

Is it any wonder?

You've freely admitted that your own card has been "compromised several times". Doesn't that tell you something?

We've never ever had a card compromised, though I wait with bated breath following our US trip during which a card reader asked for the PIN on just one solitary occasion and not one signature was checked.

BTW that card is actually in my GF's name. My signature looks nothing like hers - and my name isn't Julie ;).

 

Data shows that 20% of UK card fraud is perpetrated by using US merchants.

Which is probably why we were inconvenience during that US road trip, when the card was declined by a merchant. The card issuer had suspended that card, awaiting a reply to an e-mail seeking verification of a number of mundane purchases ranging from just $6 to little more than $100, even though they'd been told of our trip.

Over-kill?

Perhaps.

But the card rep. told me that they are particularly suspicious of card activity in the USA, which has the world's highest proportion of card crime and where the card doesn't have the security of a PIN number. His comment is confirmed by a link on this thread which shows that the US has as much card crime as the rest of the world put together!!

 

You've quoted that fraud accounts for 12cents per $100 of transactions.

I read figures from a couple of years earlier - and the figure was 6cents per $100 of transactions.

If both figures are correct, that's a very unhealthy trend in the US.

 

So now it looks like chip & sig. technology is likely to be country-wide in the US by October.

Which should be seen as a good thing.

But I see it as a bad thing.

Because merchants investing now in chip & sig. equipment that's not geared to accepting PIN identification are unlikely to throw that expensive equipment away and replace it with chip&PIN in the foreseeable future.

 

As I ended my first post on this thread:

The US of A leads the world in many respects.

On the matter of card security it's way behind.

 

JB :)

 

Really...so you think a sixteen year old clerk looking at a signature for a £2 charge will increase security? But without arguing, please show me a US issued credit card other than by UNFCU that asks for a pin at a pos terminal. I have pasted the documentation here from some of the banks where people have claimed they have a pin priority card. And again, the US banks are not dumb. If they really thought pins would put a large dent in card is present fraud, they would have done it. And I will agree...credit card fraud has doubled in the last decade from 6¢/$100 to 12¢. At that rate, it will take until 2100 to reach $1. In the scheme of things, lost or stolen card fraud is insignificant. But you misunderstand. Given my druthers, for the sake of worldwide uniformity, I would have preferred pin verification. It is simply not happening in the USA and I guarantee you that somebody using the arrival+ card from Barclay Bank USA has card that is signature preferred as their literature has made quite clear.

 

But again my intent is simply to help Americans understand that at this writing, the American banking system for the most part, whether for good reasons or not, has rejected pin verification. I am not defending it; I'm just pointing it out. Please name for me a US issued card, other than the one issued by UNFCU and now by First Tech FCU that is primarily pin preferred. If you can, I will eat my words. And indeed the primary advantage of emv chip cards resides in the chip, not the pin. But we can agree to disagree without anger.

Edited July 5, 2015 by MATHA531

[Pet Nit Noy]

If your card is stolen, and cards are a prime target for the (mostly East European) scrotes that steal from tourists and locals alike, the thief has until you discover the theft and get the card stopped to buy stuff at your expense. He will likely buy small and expensive electricals and jewelery. With a PIN, they can't do it so easily. Of course they have ways of getting a PIN, like concealed cameras at ATMs, but it presents an added level of difficulty.

 

If "you" discover your card has been stolen, file a police report or the equivalent depending on the location of the crime. With a police report number, "you" will not be liable for any fraudulent purchases made before you alerted the bank that administers your credit card. In fact, consider a three- step process. Call the bank and tell them to freeze the account. File a police report. Call the bank a second time and provide the police report case number.