10/22 Oosterdam Dining Change - No, I'm not kidding...

[Pudgesmom]

if our friends are any indication, HAL is not getting its share of those new cruisers. Our friends all want the same thing- 4-5 star service and food, an elegant quality adult atmosphere, open seat dining and country club casual/resort dress. They are not slobs and want quality in everything, but are not even looking at HAL for their cruises. And believe me, they are cruising all over the world. The older HAL ships would be of great interest to them, especially after the SOE renovations, but they want the options of more 'freedom' in their vacation that HAL is so-far not offering. I think HAL is very attuned to the market of 2005 and on.

 

I believe I fit this catagory. Although we enjoyed our Oosterdam cruise, we would not repeat it. If the smaller ships offered open seat dining, I for one would choose them.

 

I have to admit I find the "formal" nights a little phony. I don't get the feeling of being at a large formal party, just in a restaurant with a bunch of likewise dressed people eating dinner. Resort casual would suit me and my DH just fine. in fact, its one of reasons we choose Windstar for our next cruise.

 

Beth

[kryos]

Okay, maybe you're right. But then, if you are, it appears that those of us who prefer HAL's original traditions are becoming the 'minority'. I mean, how many comments do HAL have to get in order to consider making this kind of change?

HAL wants the family cruiser because that's where the money is. I'd be willing to bet a lot of those family cruisers ... especially those doing Alaska or Caribbean itineraries ... have been screaming for these options for quite a while. If the family could eat whenever they wished (within certain parameters) mom and dad could go to the dining room with the kids, instead of having to take the kids to dinner in the Lido earlier ... because maybe 5:15 was too early for the whole family to eat together, and 8:30 was too late. This way they can opt for maybe 7:00 p.m. and eat together as a family.

 

Also, mom and dad don't want to have to get all the kids gussied up for formal night. They want to be able to just walk into the dining room after getting back from port, and maybe just washing up. They can go to the dining room in the same clothes they wore while touring.

 

Believe me, I'm not necessarily applauding these changes. I don't like the idea of anytime dining myself. As a solo traveler, I like having set dining companions to eat with each night ... a waiter who now knows my preferences and my name, and all of the good things associated with fixed seating dining. I don't like the idea of having to walk into anytime dining and ask the Matri 'd to find someone who would not mind having me join their table. If people are eating together, I don't like knowing that I am being shoved into their party ... not welcomed there.

 

But, things they are a changing, and it looks like if HAL wants to get and hold onto this family cruiser, it's gonna have to change things around more to their liking. If we are truly in the minority here, then I think we will either wind up having to "adjust" or find another line to sail.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[LoveLifeAtSea]

Can HAL be contemplating throwing overboard (figuratively speaking) all her older, traditional passengers in an attempt to replace them with younger---got more cruises in front of 'em---passengers. Am I that expendable?

 

 

Ruth, that's the way it appears. And, yes, we are ALL that expendable!

[RuthC]

You would think that they would do some Mariner polling before jumping into something like this.

One would think, wouldn't one.

Has anyone here ever been polled by HAL about some sort of change like this?

I received a questionaire once. Once. It was about a planned World Cruise itinerary---there were four or five listed, and I was asked my opinion of each. There was also an opportunity to devise my own.

But this issue is decidedly different than that poll.

Who did you ask, HAL? :confused: Duh.

["Wandering Wino's&quo]

If it is anyone lower in executive status than Johan Groothuizen

Vice President, Marine Hotel Operations, then it will be an underling with little authority to do anything other than collect data and report back, IMO.

 

Janice, just got off the phone with ship services. Seems that yes this open dining experiment on our cruise will indeed take place. When we board our dining card will indicate OPEN SEATING. I was told that their manager by the name of Joe Potts will be aboard to "chat" with the passengers about the changes and make sure everything rus smoothly. I guess we have been selected as part of a test group. I wonder if that means there will be prizes for everyone at the end of the cruise or in the case of Clinical Trials (testing of drugs by pharmaceuticals companies) there is financial compensation. I don't think I will count on either of those possible outcomes. See you on Sunday if not before.

Joe Potts Joe Potts Joe Potts

This is our point man. I'm sure he is anxious to chat with all of us during the cruise.

This is a post from Roll Call, Ms. Oosterdam 10/22/05

[RuthC]

Poor Joe Potts. Almost want to feel sorry for him.

Almost.

Hope he's someone with authority, and not just a "yes man" who's going to tell 'em what they want to hear back in Seattle.

[peaches from georgia]

Joe Potts is a great guy and has a very responsible position. He would be perfectly qualified and capable to supervise this 'test', interact with the pax and represent the company, exchange opinions, and report back to Seattle. You don't need the final decision-maker on the ship for the first experiment; you need somehow who has the brains and experience to see how it is working, understand the pax views and report back. I'd be more than happy to see Joe on a cruise in this position. You can be sure there will be other options tried out at some point also.

 

I do feel sorry for Joe with so much negativity towards him on this board and the poor guy hasn't done or said a 'dam thing yet.

[mtnmommy]

I have a rotten feeling that I am part of the demographic that Holland America hopes it might attract if it makes this asinine dining system permanent. Instead, it would be a deal breaker for me. My husband and I are in our thirties, with children aged 2 and 6. When we started cruising, we picked Holland America because of the tradition, the formality, the interesting and intelligent fellow passengers--and the fixed dining times! I adore HAL and had planned to be a loyalist for life. I have been on three cruises with my husband, two long cruises (Panama Canal and South America) with my mother--and late seating dinner with assigned tablemates is an essential part of our cruise experience.

 

Seattle, do you hear me? Yeah, I am in my thirties, I have a young family, and I DO NOT want freestyle anything! I do not wish to sail Princess! I do not wish to sail Disney! I want a formal dress code, an assigned table, and all the romanticism and graciousness of traditional cruising. I want Noel Coward, moonlight on the ocean, champagne on the veranda. That is WHY I cruise. A freestyle dining mob scene is not my idea of a relaxing cruise. Not all of us under 50 want to wear jeans and flip flops in the dining room and climb the rock wall after dinner. Why doesn't HAL get this?

 

I enjoyed the comment about 5:30 p.m. being too early for someone's 93-year-old grandmother to eat. My 95-year-old Grandma would be horrified as well! What, is she going to have her martini and dance in the Ocean Bar at 4 p.m.? Even my two-year-old's gastric juices don't flow at 5:30 p.m. I'd be hauling the kid to the late night buffet after she woke up hungry. We were planning on cruising with our children soon, and my kids were looking forward to dressing in gowns and tuxes and enjoying the "fancy, schmancy" dining, as they call it. My parents took me all over the world as a child, and pb & j usually wasn't part of the deal. I don't know why "family friendly" has to equal Chuck E. Cheez.

 

I can't wait to tell my business prof husband about this. I think these two weeks on the Oosterdam would make a great business case on how not to treat loyal customers.

 

I'm normally just a lurker, but thank you for the opportunity to vent. Sometimes it seems like all the little niceties are going out of the world. I guess by the time my husband and I retire we'll just spend our Golden Years hanging out in torn sweatpants, splitting a Big Mac. (Wait, that's how we spend our time at home now. I was hoping for a little more class in our future!)

 

Good luck to all those sailing on the O next week--I'm so glad CCers will be there.

 

Lisa

[LoveLifeAtSea]

To all sailing on the Oosterdam next week . . .

 

I truly hope that this unexpected turn of events somehow turns out better than you are expecting. It's not what you planned for, but I hope you don't let it ruin your cruise. You've been waiting for this fabulous trip, so go and make the best of it! You certainly deserve it! :)

 

Wishing ALL of YOU a wonderful cruise!

[WillK]

Peaches- I think your assessment is spot on. By offering "PC" or some version of a more liberal dining arrangement, HAL could potentially capture a greater share of the upscale market. When I've suggested HAL to friends, their reservations have been around the issues of assigned dining and multiple formal nights. These people are not "slobs". They are well educated professionals who wear suits to work every day and regularly attend social events that require formal wear. HAL is merely attempting to adapt and thus survive in an extremely competitive market. Think of all the lines that have failed in the last 10 years: Commodore, Premier, Regal...... I'd hate to see HAL added to this list. There are probably still several cruisers out there who are still upset that dining assignments are no longer determined by "class". I do know the name of the HAL manager who will be on our 10/22 Oosterdam cruise and I can only hope that he will be treated with the civility and decency that one would expect in a refined environment.

[shonuf]

I hope the folks on next week's cruise have a great time and that this "change" doesn't ruin their cruise.

 

That said, DH and I are booked on the "O" in January and I have read this thread with great interest. We have sailed on other lines but HAL is our favorite, we love the traditional dining and over the years have had wonderful tablemates (with a few notable exceptions, but on the other lines, not HAL). We always have late dining and request a large table as we enjoy getting to know our tablemates.

 

Fortunately for us, our final payment is not due just yet so we'll have a chance to see how this pans out before we make the payment.

[peaches from georgia]

When I've suggested HAL to friends, their reservations have been around the issues of assigned dining and multiple formal nights. These people are not "slobs". They are well educated professionals who wear suits to work every day and regularly attend social events that require formal wear.

 

I do know the name of the HAL manager who will be on our 10/22 Oosterdam cruise and I can only hope that he will be treated with the civility and decency that one would expect in a refined environment.

Reading what a few 'loyal' HAL posters are already doing to Joe, who they apparently do not know, I think maybe we will be looking for another cruiseline also.

 

:) I think our friends are your friends' parents.

[Jim Gallup]

Before we get too lathered up, panic and slash our wrists over this issue, it might be prudent to take a moment to calm down, take a few deep breaths, and consider the logic.

 

1. There are those among us (quite a few) who seem to believe that most Cruise Line execs are complete idiots who are conspiring every day to come up with stupid ideas that empty our pocketbooks, destroy the cruise industry, ruin our lives, bankrupt their billion dollar companies, and lose their jobs.

 

2. There are others who believe that Cruise Line execs find themselves in a very volatile high-stakes industry where the slightest mistake in marketing can destroy their business and put them and their employees out of work.

 

I tend to go with option #2 most of the time. The Cruise Line Executives I know personally are intelligent, forward-looking people who are constantly thinking outside the box, trying to develop concepts that appeal to the majority of the cruising public. They invest millions of dollars in market research, Guest Polls, and other scientifically valid methods that hopefully tell them what the public wants. The smartest ones then take promising concepts that appeal to the public and TEST them to ensure that the research is not faulty. If the test succeeds, they then consider the concept for wider testing or for introduction to the product. If the TEST fails, they usually drop the concept and look for better ones.

 

Doesn't this sound quite a lot like what HAL is doing on Oosterdam this week?

Wouldn't it be fairly intelligent to let this TEST take place and see what happens? We might just be pleasantly surprised.

 

By the way, all of the wingeing, whining, crying, rolling of eyes, wringing of hands, and hyperventilating documented in the previous six pages are remarkably similar to the reactions seen after the TESTING of the locomotive, the airplane, the automobile, television, and the internet.

[peaches from georgia]

When I've suggested HAL to friends, their reservations have been around the issues of assigned dining and multiple formal nights. These people are not "slobs". They are well educated professionals who wear suits to work every day and regularly attend social events that require formal wear.

 

I do know the name of the HAL manager who will be on our 10/22 Oosterdam cruise and I can only hope that he will be treated with the civility and decency that one would expect in a refined environment.

Reading what a few 'loyal' HAL posters are already saying about Joe without knowing how he will be doing his new assignment, I think maybe we will be looking for another cruiseline also.

 

:) I think our friends are your friends' parents.

[bepsf]

...and I DO NOT want freestyle anything! I do not wish to sail Princess! I do not wish to sail Disney! I want a formal dress code, an assigned table, and all the romanticism and graciousness of traditional cruising. I want Noel Coward, moonlight on the ocean, champagne on the veranda. That is WHY I cruise. A freestyle dining mob scene is not my idea of a relaxing cruise. Not all of us under 50 want to wear jeans and flip flops in the dining room and climb the rock wall after dinner. Why doesn't HAL get this?

 

I enjoyed the comment about 5:30 p.m. being too early for someone's 93-year-old grandmother to eat. My 95-year-old Grandma would be horrified as well! What, is she going to have her martini and dance in the Ocean Bar at 4 p.m.?...

 

...My parents took me all over the world as a child, and pb & j usually wasn't part of the deal. I don't know why "family friendly" has to equal Chuck E. Cheez.

 

Ditto.

Janice & Iggi--

I am so disappointed to hear that you will be actually prohibited from arranging w/ the Maitre'd to have a reserved table at the later dining time - that just isn't right...

I don't mind trying new things: I'm all for new alternative dining venues, and flexibility within the traditional seating arrangement.

But the times are clearly unsuitable - seatings should begin at 6pm and 8.30pm.

HAL needs to balance flexibility by allowing folks to reserve a group table with Ship Services or book seats with the Maitre'd once aboard ship (as was the tradition in the old days) Otherwise, if one wants flexibility or has made no prior arrangements, one should be able to enter and be seated at any non-reserved table within a given timeframe (15 minutes of the doors opening) Latecomers without a reserved table should not be allowed to roam the room looking for a seat someplace - they should be shown to an open table where they will not disturb other passengers by their lateness.

This is roughly the way its done on RSVP and has been fairly rather successful - a good balance of tradition and flexibility. But it certainly isn't "Leisure Seating" or some such Marketing-BS...

Iggi--

I'm curious: How does Olivia handle the seating during their charters?

[LizB1]

All I can say to this, and all the other recent changes on HAL, I am sure glad we have cruised when we did! Have seen so many changes since '67 when we first started cruising and have been able to accept the changes until this past year or so with HAL. It is no longer the cruise line we wish to cruise on --perhaps one more cruise or so -- and that's it.

 

Too bad it is no longer an upscale Line but one now in the mass market of cruising! So much for their "Tradition of Excellence"!!!

[Iggipolka]

HAL ships have all been sailing fully booked. They aren't loosing any money by having traditional dining, in fact, they may be gaining the people who don't want PC dining. I know that's one of the reasons why I like HAL. I'm in my 30's, professional and overly educated. I like formal nights, I like traditional dining, I like all of the luxury that HAL provides. Why would HAL want to be just like every other mass market cruise line when they can, and have been, offering a wonderful classy alternative that has kept their ships sailing fully booked for many years?!

 

I'm so frustrated. I feel very sorry for the people on the 10/22 sailing. I am selfishly hoping that this whole thing will be gone by my 11/12 sailing, but I have my doubts. The 10/29 sailing is an Olivia charter and on past Olivia cruises, they have kept the traditional dining. I would love to know if they change that for this sailing.

[serendipity1499]

Before we get too lathered up, panic and slash our wrists over this issue, it might be prudent to take a moment to calm down, take a few deep breaths, and consider the logic.

 

1. There are those among us (quite a few) who seem to believe that most Cruise Line execs are complete idiots who are conspiring every day to come up with stupid ideas that empty our pocketbooks, destroy the cruise industry, ruin our lives, bankrupt their billion dollar companies, and lose their jobs.

 

2. There are others who believe that Cruise Line execs find themselves in a very volatile high-stakes industry where the slightest mistake in marketing can destroy their business and put them and their employees out of work.

 

I tend to go with option #2 most of the time. The Cruise Line Executives I know personally are intelligent, forward-looking people who are constantly thinking outside the box, trying to develop concepts that appeal to the majority of the cruising public. They invest millions of dollars in market research, Guest Polls, and other scientifically valid methods that hopefully tell them what the public wants. The smartest ones then take promising concepts that appeal to the public and TEST them to ensure that the research is not faulty. If the test succeeds, they then consider the concept for wider testing or for introduction to the product. If the TEST fails, they usually drop the concept and look for better ones.

 

Doesn't this sound quite a lot like what HAL is doing on Oosterdam this week?

Wouldn't it be fairly intelligent to let this TEST take place and see what happens? We might just be pleasantly surprised.

 

By the way, all of the wingeing, whining, crying, rolling of eyes, wringing of hands, and hyperventilating documented in the previous six pages are remarkably similar to the reactions seen after the TESTING of the locomotive, the airplane, the automobile, television, and the internet.

 

That is not the case at all..You are completely mis-interpreting many of the posts in the last 6 pages..:( I'm not a reactionary & accept change quite well, but give me a chance to accept or refuse your changes..

 

When you TEST, you should warn people about a test, instead of springing it on them at the LAST MINUTE! Give folks a chance to become or refuse to be part of that TEST!

 

I've was in the airline industry for more than 30 years & sometimes we came up with very innovative ideas..In our company we always considered our booked passengers first & gave them the option of canceling/changing their reservations, if they did not wish to take part in these innovative ideas..

 

We also came up with some stupid ideas too! To tell a passenger that he/she must eat in the traditional dining room at 5:30 is ludicrous if he had an 8:30 confirmed dining time..And to tell a group of 8 that they may or may not sit together is asinine..

 

As Peaches earlier suggested, wouldn't it be much better to have both early & late dining times with options for traditional in one dining area & options for free style in another dining area, at least on the ships departing in the next few months..

 

Change can be good, but please tell me about it before I leave.. Guarantee you will have many very unhappy passengers on this weekends Oosterdam cruise..

 

Hopefully though they will have a good cruise, in spite of it!:)

[sail7seas]

HAL ships have all been sailing fully booked. They aren't loosing any money by having traditional dining, in fact, they may be gaining the people who don't want PC dining.

 

HAL (and most of the other mass-market cruiselines) have been sailing full in recent months...past year. But, it is cyclical. There are good times; there are bad times.

 

When all of the unemployment and homelessness starts to show in the real state of the economy; when GM and AA and other major companies continue cutting wages and benefits; when the deficits from hurricanes and wars start to smack us in the face; when we all pay heating and gas bills this winter......

 

We'll see how good the leisure travel business remains.

 

Who has seen the company through 135 years? Their loyal customers. While some (many) very frequent (high paying) HAL Mariners are out of our thirties and forties, we are far from dead and we still have control of our funds. Our families have not yet inherited it. We control how and where we spend it.

 

Make us unhappy enough, and you cannot tell me (with a straight face) the company would not feel it if a large percentage of us exited.

 

Are they going to count on all the young families to support them? The families who are facing all the expenses of raising children including college and weddings and the like?

 

Our money is very green and we have already indicated we are happy to spend it with HAL. Are they no longer interested in getting a piece of our pie?

I didn't start sailing in the late sixties. We were barely finishing school and thinking about getting married. But we've cruised a great amount in the years since we started.....I truthfully don't remember the year of our first HAL cruise but it was around 1989 or so. We've paid a lot of dollar to HAL. I hope we can continue to pay more. It really is up to them at this point.

 

We are ready, willing and able so long as they can/will provide us with what it is we wish to buy.

 

 

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I for one hope this "TEST" Flopps Big Time, and before we all jump to conclusions it may very well do that. It is just too bad we did not have just a bit more warning or we could have started some type of petition for Janice and Shirley and the whole 10/22 Roll goup to take with them and give to Mr. Potts. Possible even printing out some of the very up set comments from the CC board might be a good idea. SOmething in writing for him to take back to Seattle. I wonder if there is a quick way to start a big Petition would just name do or even with our Mariner Numbers.

[sail7seas]

I think it very safe to say at least one 'someone' in Seattle has been reading this thread. I have no clue if they care about it but I'm quite sure they are aware of it.

 

[stanford's girl]

I guess that excuses rudness then? If I was another new person with valuable information I wouldn't post it at all. Sorry, it just sits wrong to be slandered when what you are trying to do is help.:( I'll just go back to lurking, thank you...

Please don't go back to just lurking Debbie.:( You posted something the rest of us had no clue about and gave us the heads up. It is posters like yourself that make this board a valuable place to get information. I am glad that I had this info before I boarded the ship. It will give me a little time to calm down before I talk to HAL's General Manager.

["Wandering Wino's&quo]

I for one hope this "TEST" Flopps Big Time, and before we all jump to conclusions it may very well do that. It is just too bad we did not have just a bit more warning or we could have started some type of petition for Janice and Shirley and the whole 10/22 Roll goup to take with them and give to Mr. Potts. Possible even printing out some of the very up set comments from the CC board might be a good idea. SOmething in writing for him to take back to Seattle. I wonder if there is a quick way to start a big Petition would just name do or even with our Mariner Numbers.

 

Lisa, thanks for your kind thoughts. It seems that a few, very few, people that have posted on this tread think that some us that are scheduled to sail this Saturday on the O are being unreasonable and negative regarding changes that HAL is testing on our cruise. Many of us including Janice, Rita and many others have been communicating here on the CC boards for well over a year. Believe me I don't think in all that time was one negative comment made by anyone going on this cruise. We are a bunch of what I would say are fun loving, forward thinking and HAL loving people. I can't believe that two days before this much planned and anticipated cruise, that I'm spending time on the phone with Holland America Guest Services to make sure that arrangements that had been made and confirmed months ago are still in place. To the person who took us to task for being concerned about this test on our upcoming cruise all I can say I wish it was their cruise and ours cruise was in the future after the test and all the bugs related to this experment were worked out.

And as for Mr. Joe Potts, I am encouraged to hear that he is someone that places the passenger"s comfort and enjoyment at the top of his list. If he's as good as several of you have indicated then I'm sure everything with be handled with style and all the guests aboard this wonderful ship will disembark in San Diego on October 29th with big smiles on their faces, because that will be the true test to this change HAL is considering making. Enough, time for our Cruise.

[stanford's girl]

Curious......Who is HAL's General Manager who is going to be aboard? You mean President? CEO? I'm trying to figure out General Manager of What? Making Passengers miserable?

How would a telephone rep know this?

 

I

I haven't read through all the rest of this thread yet but the name of the person who will be handling this on the ship is JOE POTTS. For everyone who is on this sailing, remember that name!!:rolleyes:

[kel_eun]

according to the powers that be at Oliva, they will have the traditional seating for the Oct 29th sailing but they will consider the other option for the future. We are going to be on this trip and can hardly wait...

happy cruising everyone!!!

kellie and eunie